Good morning. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Madam Premier.

Madam Speaker, I wish to advise Members that the Honourable Rebecca Mike will be absent from the House today to attend a meeting of Ministers of Municipal Affairs in Toronto. Thank you.

Thank you. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Inuvik, Mr. Koe.

Mahsi, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I rise today to speak about the northern rental housing program. The northern rental purchase program had its origins in the Eskimo loan program of the 1950s where, in the eastern Arctic and northern Quebec, employees of the federal government and other interested parties were given the option of moving into rental/purchase units. Rents varied from $2 to $67 per month.

The program was then introduced into the western Arctic by the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development in the 1960s, basically to provide adequate, safe housing to returning TB patients. Before the introduction of public housing to the Northwest Territories in 1974, the housing stocks in the Northwest Territories were built by the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development.

The northern rental purchase program which this government inherited upon taking responsibility for housing programs in the Northwest Territories was set up in such a way that tenants could apply money and rent towards the basic price. Credit from rent paid would then reduce the purchase price of the house. Major improvement costs would be added to the final purchase price and a depreciation amount would be reduced from that final purchase price. The house could then be purchased by the tenants using a combination of cash and credit. In some cases, a mortgage would have to be obtained. In all cases, the buyer would have to obtain some sort of title to the land that the house was to be situated on or have the unit moved to another lot.

This entire program, while it still does exist, has enjoyed a limited amount of success. The major reason for the lack of success of the program is the fact that the units the Housing Corporation inherited from DIAND were poorly constructed and hardly worth...

Madam Speaker, my time is up. I seek unanimous consent to continue.

The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to continue. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed, Mr. Koe.

Mahsi, Madam Speaker, and mahsi, colleagues. The major reason for the lack of success of the program is the fact that the units the Housing Corporation inherited from DIAND were poorly constructed and hardly worth the tenants buying when one took into consideration the amount of money that would have to be spent to bring the house up to code. In addition, once a unit is upgraded using funds from the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, the unit, by virtue of the contribution agreement, has to be taken off the rental purchase program stock and placed on the public housing stocks.

It is basically a vicious little circle. Although a tenant might be able to afford to buy the unit they are living in, they would not be able to afford the repairs. The Housing Corporation has had to rely upon contribution agreements in the past with the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation and has, by necessity, taken the path of least resistance. It is cheaper to remodel the old units into proper units; however, the only source of funds available dictates that the units must become part of public housing stock.

So, although people are now living in units that meet minimal, acceptable standards for living, the units are no longer available for purchase. The rental purchase program has now been replaced by other programs such as HAP and the new access to housing program. There are still units available for purchase under the rental purchase program but, as all the units were constructed in the 1960s and early 1970s, it is not economically feasible for tenants to purchase, given the cash outlay necessary to bring the units up to an acceptable standard. There has also been a significant number of units that have been abandoned due to fire and disrepair.

Madam Speaker, this is an interesting program and it raises a lot of questions which I will be pursuing later with the Minister responsible. Mahsi.

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Baffin South, Mr. Pudlat.

(Translation) Thank you, Madam Speaker. First of all, I would like to thank the Member for High Arctic. I would like to support his previous statement with regard to child abuse. There are quite a few children who have been raised as victims of child sexual abuse. I know they are suffering. So, Madam Speaker, I am standing today for us to deal with victims of child abuse. We are not going to try to put them on the spot, but try to cure them. We have to try to review our misgivings for that reason. We have to pursue victims' assistance further for children. We have to work harder because we know they are suffering and that diseases can carry on for the remainder of their life. If there is any way we can help them further, that is part of the reason why I am standing up today, Madam Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you. Item 3, Member's Statements. The honourable Member for Amittuq, Mr. Allooloo.

(Translation) Good morning, Madam Speaker. I am pleased to announce that I just came back from an economic meeting in Rankin Inlet sponsored by Nunavut Tunngavik, as well as the Government of the Northwest Territories. (Translation ends)

The conference was an astounding success. Over 200 delegates attended from all walks of life: there were young people making contributions to the conference; elders speaking their own native tongue making contributions; representatives of women's groups; church groups; small businesses from the communities and regions; and, multinational corporations such as mining companies, airlines and banks. Throughout the week, the meeting rooms were filled with positive energy. Everyone had something worthwhile to contribute whether they were an elder, a student or a community leader.

During the week, we worked together to develop a plan for achieving economic stability in Nunavut. Although the conference's major theme was economy, several issues were identified that we as Inuit, or the population of Nunavut, will have to overcome in order to make ourselves economically viable and stable. For example, Madam Speaker, we could have the most solid financial plan for Nunavut, a solid educational strategy and a solid transportation strategy and if we don't deal with the social problems such as substance abuse, family violence, sexual abuse and social breakdown, we will be no further ahead.

We have started talking about these issues and we must continue...Madam Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to continue.

The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed, Mr. Allooloo.

Thank you, Madam Speaker, and colleagues. We must continue talking about these problems at the community level and working towards solutions; solutions that come from within the community. The professionals from outside could help us, but the real answer is the community has to deal with the problems and find solutions.

Once we are healthy again, outside investors will feel more confident investing in Nunavut. Madam Speaker, several other important themes emerged: the need to focus on education, particularly; making use of what is available today such as distance learning facilities. Taking university courses through distance learning technology. We also spoke of the importance of protecting our environment and preserving traditional values and using traditional values to go ahead and develop our Nunavut. During the Nunavut leaders' summit to be held in January in Gjoa Haven, we intend to explore some of these options further.

In closing, Madam Speaker, I would like to share with you a phrase that someone used during the closing of the conference. "When I believe it, I will see it. If we strongly believe that this future we are planning for ourselves is attainable, it will surely come to pass." Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Yellowknife South, Mr. Whitford.

The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed, Mr. Whitford.

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Iqaluit, Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I, too, have just returned from the conference organized by Nunavut Tunngavik called Nunavut Sivummut: Beyond Tomorrow. This conference, which was attended by delegates from all over Nunavut and southern Canada, spent three full days working very hard to examine issues and strategies to ensure a better economic future in Nunavut.

The delegates included Inuit community leaders, NTI executives and board members, representatives of regional Inuit associations, development corporations, banks, co-ops, mining companies, federal and territorial governments and several MLAs who were able to get away for the session. As in large meetings of this kind, a very important part of the meeting was the networking that took place behind the scenes. I'm sure that the seeds of many joint ventures and other initiatives have already been sown at this conference.

Madam Speaker, I was struck by two things about the meeting. Firstly, the high degree of optimism and confidence with which all delegates looked to the future and, secondly, the high degree of consensus reached on the major challenges and solutions ahead. The major focus of discussions and recommendations were on strategies to deal with social issues; particularly, less reliance on outside, professional help and more reliance on the strong base of human resources already in our communities to deal with healing.

There was a very strong emphasis on more job-oriented education strategies, on the urgent need for trades training, on the need to have more professional training, and the need to motivate and develop a trained workforce, beginning with our youth. There was also a great emphasis on reducing transportation costs and providing more access to capital. Delegates focused on small business, privatization, less bureaucratic and more decentralized business assistance programs. There was also widespread agreement on the merits of a northern mineral accord to capture resource revenues, and much talk about reducing the reliance on government.

Mr. Patterson, your time has lapsed.

I would request consent to conclude my statement, Madam Speaker.

Thank you. The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to continue. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed, Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. There was much talk about reducing the reliance on government and the reliance on social assistance, especially for young people.

Madam Speaker, I want to extend my congratulations to Nunavut Tunngavik Inc. I think this is one of the first major events they have organized, other than ceremonies celebrating the signing of the land claim agreement. I especially want to congratulate their economic advisor, Mr. Tagak Curley who organized this meeting, for pulling off a very successful, productive conference. I would also like to thank the Honourable John Todd, his department and the Government of the Northwest Territories for major financial support, along with many important corporate sponsors.

Madam Speaker, I look forward to receiving the economic strategy document which will result from this conference. It is expected to be released by the end of this year. Qujannamiik.

---Applause

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Yellowknife North, Mr. Ballantyne.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Today is Friday, and last Thursday Mr. Kakfwi made a very eloquent plea for a sincere compliment. I was going to try to give him one on Friday, but he wasn't here. So, today I thought I would make a sincere effort to show Mr. Kakfwi that I can give him a sincere compliment. What I wanted to say was that Mr. Kakfwi has a good sense of humour. Mr. Kakfwi is also a very proud and sensitive man. So, I wanted to say that he had a good sense of humour, but then I was afraid that he would want me to say that he has a great sense of humour. I might have said that he has a great sense of humour, but that is not as good as having the best sense of humour, and I was afraid that if I didn't say he had the best sense of humour, he would think I meant he had the worst sense of humour.

---Laughter So, I'm sorry for the complexity of trying to give Mr. Kakfwi a compliment, because I really do think he has a good sense of humour. But now Mr. Kakfwi would ask me if I am sincerely sorry. Well, I'm sort of sorry, but I am certainly not that sorry, though Mr. Kakfwi may not think that I am sorry. So, Mr. Kakfwi, in spite of popular opinion, I think you have a good sense of humour, and you demonstrated it yesterday, sort of. Thank you.

---Laughter

---Applause

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Lewis.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise today, Madam Speaker, to talk about spice. I would like to thank Madam Speaker, and I hope this won't be taken the wrong way, for putting spice into my life.

---Laughter

As Members will know, I have always been interested in projects of a modest nature that really do something for economy. I have always believed in renewable resources and what renewable resources means to the vast majority of our people. At my age, I appreciate spice and I would like to thank the Speaker for making us aware that there is a lady in Fort Smith who, for several decades, has been trying to develop a northern spice.

I was struck many years ago when I was in New Orleans that they had developed a distinctive cuisine and everywhere you went you could buy spice, all kinds of spice, that could accompany cajun cooking. These were the kinds of gifts that people bought when they were in New Orleans and they were looking for something for $5 to $10. They would take some spice home because this was a reasonably priced memento of their visit to that part of the world.

Very often over the last couple of decades, I have been interested in our northern environment. I have picked up lots of stuff from the bush, things like wild chives and wild sage. I've done all kinds of work myself to try to make food more interesting. I would like to compliment Madam D on a project called "Madam D's gold medal gourmet meat seasoning," which Members are aware of. This is the kind of project that, in my opinion -- if we were to look at it as a modest thing -- if developed, could have a massive impact. Northern cuisine and northern products like this have great potential, some of which can be collected from our own bush and developed into a distinctive northern product.

Hear, hear.

---Applause

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Antoine.

Mahsi, Madam Speaker. I am pleased, Madam Speaker, with the announcement made by the Minister responsible for Municipal and Community Affairs yesterday with regard to the NWT search and rescue program. Unfortunately, she is not in the House today. I understand this program is a two-year training program for search and rescue on the ground and in the water. It is funded by the federal government and involves work with the RCMP.

Madam Speaker, I have been a volunteer in the past to search for people who went missing on the river in my constituency. I know what is required to do a search. It is very important that there be a quick response to emergencies with the proper equipment. These are the two areas where I have had concern in the past. In many cases, when rescue is required, there needs to be a coordinated, cooperative effort by people in the communities and, as well, to have the proper equipment available, especially if you have to go in the water.

The searches I have been involved with were coordinated effort, but I think the proper type of training and rescue management is what people in the communities have been asking for in the past. I just wanted to say that if there is such training, not only the municipal government but as well the band councils in the communities should be involved in this type of training.

I would like to ask the Minister questions, however she's not in the House so I'm going to have to wait until she gets back into the House. Mahsi.

---Applause

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements The honourable Member for Deh Cho, Mr. Gargan.

Madam Speaker, as I'm sure all Members know, I'm one of the few MLAs who are fortunate enough to live close enough to their home communities to be able to drive home most weekends, when I'm not stuck in Yellowknife working. Today, in honour of Halloween, I'm going to tell a tale of monsters and government inefficiency.

I have spoken in the past, Madam Speaker, about the dangers of travelling on the highway between Yellowknife and Fort Providence. I have talked at length about the perils of buffaloes on the road, I have complained in turn about too many highway patrols and not enough highway patrols.

Madam Speaker, there are monsters on the highway; monsters with little sense, monsters that obviously run on government logic. With their headlights and beacons flashing, these monsters travel the gravel highways of the Northwest Territories. Madam Speaker, the monsters I refer to are the trucks that water the gravel roads.

Madam Speaker, as everyone knows, there are two types of water truck monsters: the first type is the one that is owned by the Department of Transportation; the second type of water truck monsters are privately owned and can be found in smaller communities along the gravel highways of the north.

Madam Speaker, that was the type I saw a few weeks ago when I made my way back to Yellowknife. I came across this private water truck monster from Fort Rae very early in the morning. I knew it was a private truck because it was very early in the morning. It was driving very slowly down the road dumping its water on the road. Unfortunately, Madam Speaker, it was drizzling and raining at that time. I really wondered, Madam Speaker, about the intelligence of these monsters, for this is not the first time I have observed this seemingly ridiculous performance. I thought to myself, how could the brain of this animal be so small. If it had any sense, wouldn't it just dump its load of water in a ditch...

The honourable Member for Deh Cho, Mr. Gargan.

Madam Speaker, I would like to get unanimous consent to conclude by statement.

The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to continue. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Proceed.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I don't know when you cut me off but I'll just continue from where I left off.

Coming from a town where the road and its employment opportunities are appreciated, I understand the reasoning behind the watering of the roads: to reduce dust to help the grader operators in doing their jobs to make the roads safer for all travellers. So, in essence, Madam Speaker, the water truck monster is our friend. It is part of a plan that makes our highways safe. So I'm sure the Members can understand my confusion when I saw this friendly monster on the highway making a dangerous situation even more so.

Then, Madam Speaker, I thought about the nature of the beast. The monster may have sense enough not to water the road during the rain, but must for fear of riling the government policy monsters who I am sure everyone knows are much more dangerous than the friendly water truck monsters. This policy must read something like this: "Thou shall take said full water truck out onto said highway, then thou shall empty said contents on said highway. Thou shall give no concern to present weather patterns, thou shall show no common sense or thou shall lose your contract or be fired."

Madam Speaker, we must allow the water truck monsters to be free; free to make their own decisions on how much water must go on our highways. It is a simple matter of physics: one inch of mud is safer than four inches of mud. Besides which, Madam Speaker, having just kissed and made up with the highway patrol, I would not want to get a ticket for having a dirty licence plate. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta, Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. This is a return to an oral question that was asked by Mr. Ningark on October 21, 1994 regarding funding for a school principals' conference.

A principals' conference organized by the Kitikmeot Division Board of Education is scheduled to take place on Saturday, November 5th and Sunday, November 6th in Yellowknife. The conference is considered important by both the board and the principals to give them an opportunity for professional development, generally, and to discuss all operational issues together. The majority of the conference costs are being funded by the board, and the principals are contributing by paying for their own accommodation.

Prior to the 1994 school year, divisional boards of education were allocated specific funds through the NWT school funding formula for principals' meetings or conferences. This specific category of funds is no longer identified in the formula, and the boards are now funded for general administration. The amount of administration funding in the formula was reviewed last year through the school finance review, and a number of changes were made in the calculation for administration to provide funding more equitably to all boards.

In establishing its budget priorities for this year, the Kitikmeot divisional board executive committee identified funding for a principals' conference, but the amount did not cover the full cost of the conference planned by the principals. The principals approached the board and proposed that they pay for their own accommodation, and the board agreed with the proposal. I believe this is a good example of local decision-making, and I commend the board for its planning and the principals for their initiative and dedication. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you. Item 4, returns to oral questions. The honourable Member for Hay River, Mr. Pollard.

Thank you, Madam Speaker, good afternoon. Good morning, I beg your pardon, I always get that wrong on Fridays, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I have a return to an oral question asked by Mr. Brian Lewis on October 12, 1994 concerning merit increases.

Zero per cent increases and not salary freezes were negotiated for the teachers and put in place for excluded employees. Madam Speaker, this means that current salary schedules will be maintained for these groups of employees. Merit increases will continue to be awarded as they have been in the past.

Madam Speaker, the average merit increase for government employees is 3.8 per cent. This is an important point which is often omitted when discussing zero per cent negotiated increases. Many other governments have imposed freezes to both salary schedules and merit increases.

I have a second return, Madam Speaker, if I might.

Proceed.

Madam Speaker, this is a return to an oral question asked by Mr. Ludy Pudluk on October 21, 1994 with regard to the policy on payment of salaries to employees on medical leave.

Madam Speaker, employees who take time off for health reasons on a doctor's order are entitled to receive full salary based on the number of earned sick leave days they have available to be taken. If they have no earned sick leave days accumulated then they can be advanced up to 15 days on approval of their deputy minister.

If the employee has no sick leave days available, they will be put on sick leave without pay and paid allowances only. They may be eligible to collect unemployment insurance benefits for the period of sick leave without pay until they are approved and become eligible for disability insurance. If the employee is injured at work, they are eligible to receive full salary for up to 30 days for injury on duty. After the 30-day period, they may continue to receive benefits from Workers' Compensation. The amounts of money paid to an employee on disability or Workers' Compensation benefits would be approximately 70 per cent of their annual salary, plus settlement and accommodation allowance. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you. Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Inuvik, Mr. Koe.

Mahsi, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, this morning I talked about the northern rental purchase program. I have a question for the Minister responsible for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation. Can the Minister give us an estimate of how many northern rental housing units are still on the inventory of the Housing Corporation?

Thank you. Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Approximately 450 units.

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Koe.

Mahsi, Madam Speaker. The northern rental purchase program was set up in such a way so that tenants could apply money paid in rent towards a purchase price. This was a credit that was accumulated and, in combination with other adjustments, would eventually reduce the purchase price of a unit. Since the late 1950s, early 1960s, tenants have been in these units and if they are still in these units, they must have accumulated a lot of credit.

Can the Minister indicate as to whether or not the Housing Corporation is still calculating and accumulating credits for tenants in northern rental units?

Thank you. Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. The sale of the northern rental units is based on credits for past rent due. When a given tenant requests to purchase the unit, the Housing Corporation will send in staff to deal with that tenant on a one-to-one basis. They will figure out the rent they have paid in the past, make the calculations and sell the unit for a very small price. Thank you.

Supplementary, Mr. Koe.

As I mentioned, there must have been accumulation. There are approximately 450 units, so there must be an accumulation of credits somewhere. Does the Minister have any idea about the number of credits accumulated by tenants over the years?

Thank you. Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I doubt very much if there is any information available about accumulated credits for all 450 units because the Housing Corporation deals with this on a one-to-one basis with the client. Client's rents vary, the conditions of the units vary and, in some cases, we wouldn't even sell these units to clients because some of them are in very, very bad shape and they are better off burned. But, because of our housing shortage, we are still using these units. Thank you.

Final supplementary, Mr. Koe.

Mahsi. The original intent of the northern rental program was to provide affordable housing to northerners who

would be able to purchase these and own their own homes. So, my supplementary to the Minister is, is this still the intent of the program.

Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Yes, it is still the intent for people to get into home ownership and try to get them there with the lowest possible price. Thank you.

Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Baffin South, Mr. Pudlat.

(Translation) Thank you, Madam Speaker. This morning I talked about sexual abuse among children. My question is for the Minister of Health and Social Services. Madam Speaker, there is a great illness that afflicts children who have been sexually abused. Do you have any programs or funds allocated to support children in this dilemma? They have many illnesses and they have to go through a healing process. I wonder if there will be any funding set aside for programs for people who have gone through sexual abuse. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Minister of Health and Social Services, Madam Premier.

Madam Speaker, the program for child sexual abuse across Canada called "Easy Targets" is one of the programs aimed at attempting to deal with child sexual abuse and the problems that surround it. Child sexual abuse, as we all know, is a major social issue in the Northwest Territories. In recognition of this very important issue, the Department of Health and Social Services has applied specific resources to address the issue.

Madam Speaker, a total of 5 PYs and $929,000 is available to deal with the issue. This includes child sexual abuse specialist positions located in Fort Simpson, Inuvik, Iqaluit and Baker Lake. There is a coordinator also based in Yellowknife. Also included is $200,000 in contribution funding support to non-profit groups which will offer programs to combat sexual abuse of children. As well, Madam Speaker, the department does provide counselling and support through contract services in each region. As much as possible, Madam Speaker, we are attempting to provide resources at the community level.

Madam Speaker, the mental health and child sexual abuse specialists are available to work with clients, with families and to do community development work to address the issue of sexual abuse. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Kitikmeot, Mr. Ng.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Health and Social Services, and it has to do with medical patients travelling to and from Yellowknife for treatment. The reason I am bringing this up, Madam Speaker, is that on two occasions before session started, I was travelling home on the early morning flight and at the airport I encountered constituents who were here for medical treatment and they were bumped to the later flight; about three hours later in the afternoon.

I felt it was an inconvenience for these medical patients who were travelling home. I would like to ask the Minister, is there a policy or directive in the Department of Health and Social Services that deals with medical patient travel?

Minister of Health and Social Services, Madam Premier.

Madam Speaker, we do have a policy on medical travel. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Ng.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister, is there a specific preference policy or carrier of first choice in that policy for medical patients? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister of Health and Social Services, Madam Premier.

Madam Speaker, I am not aware that there is a carrier of first choice. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Supplementary, Mr. Ng.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Does the department of the government have a reduced rate with airlines as a fact of volume on transporting medical patients? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister of Health and Social Services, Madam Premier.

Madam Speaker, Not to my knowledge.

Thank you. Final supplementary, Mr. Ng.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Recognizing that, Madam Speaker, we should be ensuring that the comfort and convenience of our patients, who are sick or recuperating, are taken into consideration. Will the Minister check into the policy to ensure if that is not there, she will amend it to ensure that that is the priority for medical patients? Thank you.

Minister of Health and Social Services, Madam Premier.

Madam Speaker, I am sure when a patient is ill and has received treatment, that is the policy: to try to cater to their health needs as much as possible. From time to time, there may be issues such as this that would give us a link to some areas that may be overlooked. If there are specific incidents, it is good to know about those because it would reflect whether the policy has been overlooked and would allow us to make the corrections. We really should know about the specific instances, so we can make those corrections and to see whether we are applying the policy for the well-being of the patients we are dealing with, Madam Speaker. Thank you.

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Yellowknife South, Mr. Whitford.

Minister of Finance, Mr. Pollard.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, perhaps I should first clarify that the payroll tax is for everyone who earns a living in the Northwest Territories. They have to pay payroll tax on that. The tax credit system was coincidental. It is a totally separate system. The fact that they mesh quite well with regard to what you pay in and what you get out for Northwest Territories residents was totally

coincidental, Madam Speaker. They are, in fact, separate issues.

I would agree that there are people in the Northwest Territories who earn money that do not pay the payroll tax, but because they are residents of the Northwest Territories, they are entitled the tax credit. I did say that I would look into this anomaly. I have to report to the House that I have looked into it and the amount of money we estimate that we are losing in this regard is some $200,000.

I am of the opinion now that, first of all, the approaches I have tried to make are considered unconstitutional and I haven't been able to do them legally. If I were to put in a very complicated system together, that $200,000, I am afraid to say, would be non-profitable for the residents of the Northwest Territories because we would probably have more in administrative expenses than the revenues that we gain. I have been unable to plug those so-called loopholes, Madam Speaker. Thank you.

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Whitford.

Thank you. Minister of Finance, Mr. Pollard.

Madam Speaker, all of the employers who have registered with us are paying the payroll tax and are deducting it from their employees. There is one organization that hasn't registered with us and is not remitting and that is the Dene Nation of the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Iqaluit, Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Health and Social Services. Madam Speaker, I think many times in this House and through the Special Committee on Health and Social Services, it has been recommended that the government could save sizeable amounts of money by locating specialists in the Northwest Territories, rather than sending people out at great expense to

visit those specialists. I would like to ask the Minister about orthodontic services.

I understand that proposals have been in hand in the Department of Health for months, if not years -- some from dental practices in the Northwest Territories -- to allow for a different way of delivering orthodontic services: by bringing orthodontists to the north, rather than sending people to Montreal, Winnipeg, et cetera, at great expense. What progress has been made on this long-standing issue? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister of Health and Social Services, Madam Premier.

Madam Speaker, there have been several proposals received from the regions to provide the orthodontist services. The former Minister did indicate that a territories-wide orthodontic program would be explored. Locating a qualified and interested orthodontist in the feasibility study proved to be very difficult. It also became apparent that a territories-wide program may not be feasible because it would require a significant amount of organization and direction from a central agency. Proposals have been submitted to the Department of Health and Social Services from the Keewatin and Baffin, to provide orthodontic services within the regions. The rationale for these proposals is that patients requiring these services are now being transported to major southern centres for treatment.

These regional proposals to provide orthodontic services will be dealt with individually, starting with the Keewatin region, followed by the Baffin and then the western regions. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, if I understand the Minister's answer correctly, the department, having received concrete proposals from existing dental clinics about how they could deliver the service, has finally decided that they don't need to hire another orthodontist to do a feasibility study, nor do they need to establish an expensive central agency, none of which was suggested by the private clinics that put the proposals to the department some months, if not years ago.

Bearing that in mind, Madam Speaker, is how much longer are we going to have to wait for some action on these sensible and cost-saving proposals? Thank you.

Minister of Health and Social Services, Madam Premier.

Madam Speaker, as I indicated, in one instance of a regional proposal, we've asked them to resubmit the proposal for some modifications. These discussions take place so that the services can be provided. In the meantime, the program delivery continues. I believe we always have to make sure that when we change the services, the services are going to be the types of services that people have become accustomed to, by referring to southern agencies. So it's just a matter of working them out, Madam Speaker.

I believe that these submissions are not years and years old. The regional centres have been asked to entertain how they can provide this service themselves. As we all know, orthodontists are hard to come by, and in the proposal that we had asked to be resubmitted was a proposal so that the orthodontist didn't really...It was the same type of service that we had provided before but it was regional. The referrals were still going to be somewhere else and the orthodontist was still going to be somewhere else. There is some question as to the total cost.

So we're not dismissing it. We feel that there can be some cost-savings, and we'll keep working at it and try to get to a resolution on these matters. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Patterson.

Madam Speaker, the honourable Minister referred to the need to provide new services in a manner that is consistent with what people have been accustomed to receiving through the south. I have to say -- maybe tongue in cheek -- that what my constituents are accustomed to receiving is not only orthodontic services, but a chance to do some free shopping in Montreal every six weeks or so at the expense of the Government of the Northwest Territories. So I hope that that is not going to be built into the new plan.

I would like to ask the Minister -- and I do recognize that there is an effort being made to change the method of delivery -- is it realistic for this House to expect, by the time we reconvene in the new year to consider the estimates for the Department of Health for operations and maintenance for the coming year, that there will finally be in place a new method of delivering orthodontic services or a plan to deliver orthodontic services in Baffin and Keewatin that does not feature this expensive travel to Winnipeg and Montreal? Thank you.

Minister of Health and Social Services.

Madam Speaker, I know that it's difficult to get all the information so that we can justify it financially. I believe that there has to be more closer-to-home orthodontic care, and how we provide it is not being suggested

in the same manner from all regions. So, in fairness to the regional health boards, I believe that we have to address it according to the care people need. I believe that there has been some criticism that for 10 minutes of care or tightening of braces, we're sending a lot of people out, not only to southern Canada but also in the west from the Delta to Yellowknife. So I think that we just have to diligently work at it and try to resolve it as quickly as possible. Certainly, with the cost, to try to justify what we're spending now and maybe have broader care by having an orthodontist move into the regions or closer to the people. So that's how we're addressing it. And we'll try to move as quickly as possible. Thank you.

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Inuvik, Mr. Koe.

Mahsi, Madam Speaker. I would like to follow up with the Minister of Housing on the northern rental housing program. Since the inception of the program, does the Minister have any idea of how many northern rental units have been purchased by tenants?

Minister of Housing, Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. The information I have is that back in January of 1991, there were approximately 569 units left on the northern rental inventory stock. I had requested today how many units there were and they said 450, so they must have sold around 119. Thank you.

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Koe.

I presume that's an assumption because some units have been burned or destroyed or disregarded because of the conditions. Is the Housing Corporation actively pursuing and working with tenants to try to sell these units to tenants?

Minister of Housing, Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. In the past, the Housing Corporation, as far as I am concerned, was not actively pursuing the selling of these northern rentals to tenants. The program was there; the tenants were not properly informed about it, but they are being properly informed and they are actively pursuing selling these units now. Thank you.

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Koe.

Mahsi, Madam Speaker. The tenants who have been in these units over the years would have accumulated credit. If they paid rent, they would have accumulated credit. So somewhere there should be an amount of how many credits have been accumulated because these are an asset to the individual tenant. But in the books of somebody else, this government or the Housing Corporation, it's a liability. So my question is, is this government recording on its books somewhere the amount of credits accumulated by tenants?

Minister of Housing, Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I doubt very much if these credits are on anybody's books. This program deals with individual clients, because different clients have paid different rents, some haven't paid rents, it depends on the condition of the unit. I understand that one-third of the rents, up to 50 per cent of the purchase price I believe it is, is allocated to the client when he requests to purchase the unit. Then there is also a deficiency list of problems with the unit and that's how the client can purchase the unit. Thank you.

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Koe.

Mahsi, Madam Speaker. To me that doesn't make sense because you know the number of units and obviously because of the housing shortages across the north, you have to assume that most of these units are occupied. If they are paying rent, they would accumulate a credit. So my question is why is this not being recorded because it is an asset to an individual. They are accumulating credits towards eventual home ownership. So why hasn't this been recorded?

Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I guess it is an accounting procedure that may not be necessary. If a client wishes to buy his unit, he just has to go into a housing authority office, ask for the information and they will give it to him. If client walks into an office, they would have information there on how much rent he has paid in the past; they would do client counselling with him and then sell him the unit. Thank you.