Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon Premier, Ministers and honourable Members. Rita Arey, our president, sends her apologies. She is recovering from surgery and therefore, I'm here to represent the Status of Women Council, an organization which you created by an act of legislation in 1989. Because we take our creation and our mandate to represent all the women of the NWT very seriously, we value this opportunity to address this Assembly greatly. We want to thank our Minister, the Honourable Nellie Cournoyea and the Honourable Stephen Kakfwi and other Members of the Assembly who are dealing with the issue of family violence in the NWT.

Mr. Carpenter said, "Where have the women been while we've been negotiating land claims and trying to secure a place for aboriginal people in the constitution and the whole scheme of things?

We said we've been sitting around tables for 20 years talking about violence against women and children. When the first man showed up at a meeting about two years ago, we didn't say, where have you been all this time? We said, welcome, we are so glad you're here.

Certainly, the Health and Social Services review report substantiates this. So, what is family violence? It is a nice clean term for what goes on in one out of three homes in the NWT on a regular basis. I'll tell you about "Annie" who came in with her five children to Yellowknife from a remote Inuit community because the shelter in Iqaluit was full. She left her sixth child behind, not by choice, but because her mother-in-law demanded it. She had been beaten many times before but this time she had the skin of her knees filed down to the bone with a hacksaw to teach her to kneel before her husband on command.

I'll tell you about "Maryann" who comes from Fort Simpson. Her grandfather sexually abused her and her mother before. Her grandmother and mother were battered women. I'll tell you about "Albert." And, "Albert", I think, is probably the saddest story of all. He beat his wife to death in Dettah and now has convinced himself that a demon did it. He's a drug and alcohol worker now, counselling in Yellowknife.

We have to get past the denial and we have to look for solutions that work. Community justice is a great idea, but who decides who will be on justice committees? Who represents the community? Ask the elders and the women. The young men of Lac La Martre were surprised to learn that women elders were once considered the vehicles for justice. Men in power positions, it was thought, were not able to render unbiased decisions.

As we have consulted across the north, our community worker finds that women have the answers but no one wants to listen. Why? Is it because we enjoy such prosperity under the status quo? Not if you believe Statistics Canada when they tell us our economy isn't growing. Why then?

I know that self-disclosure is discouraged, but I have my president's permission to tell you my own story. I am a Metis woman who has had a life of violence. I have been asked to prove I am a Metis, but I will say this. When my great grandfather came here during the potato famine in Ireland, the only women who would marry a poor Irish immigrant were French women and Indians, that was the term of the day. My great grandfather married a French woman and my grandfather married an Indian. It was not by choice, it was simply to get a woman to help on the farm and to bear the children.

My grandmother died of poisoning from a piece of chaff which stuck under her fingernail because the white doctor in Wallaceburg, Ontario refused to treat Indians. I was beaten and sexually and mentally abused all my life until I left home and then I became a battered wife. My children also suffered. The brutality continues, we try to band aid it and the church has sanctioned it. Who do we blame for these injustices? The time for blame is over. We need action.

But, having said that, this Assembly needs to confront the church and demand they fully participate in the healing. In Chesterfield Inlet, the church said, "Don't expect us to sell a building like we had to do for Baker Lake." Well, we say that if they have to sell every building they have, too bad.

The zero tolerance declaration proposed by Stephen Kakfwi is the most important proposition you will ever consider because it says, "We are the role models. We will pledge from this day forward to accept no violence in our lives. If we do succumb, we will resign." If the people have no role models in this chamber, where do they seek them?

During our constitution talks and during our Nunavut review, women said the same thing, over and over. They said, it won't matter what kind of government we have if we don't heal the people. We're so busy killing each other off, no one has to do it for us. I have to talk about Rebecca Kudloo, our eastern Arctic vice-president, who worked so hard at our last board meeting in Yellowknife to have Paul Quassa come and talk to us about women's role in Nunavut. Where is Mr. Quassa now? I have to talk about Grace Blake, who spoke so eloquently at our constitutional talks in Inuvik. She said, "I would not build one more school, arena, dock or road until our people are healed. But where is our leadership?"

We agree that offenders need treatment. Where is the money to come from? Victims need help. Communities need to heal. The only answer we can come up with is a change, a radical change in our priorities.

If this Assembly would commit to healthy citizens as its priority, what then? The dollars, limited as they are, would go first to healing; everything else would have to wait in line. Do you have the courage to do that? That's the answer. The power to act lies with you.

Take a small percentage from each ministerial budget. You had no trouble assessing a one per cent payroll tax, so this suggestion shouldn't upset you. Then, commit to zero tolerance, personally. Become a role model and condemn violence in your constituency with vigour. This problem needs a holistic approach. It is not the mandate of Justice or Health or Social Services. It is everyone's mandate. Are you satisfied with a mandate to prolong the status quo? Are you satisfied with a murder rate 5.6 times the national average? If not, what are you prepared to do? Are you prepared to implement the recommendations of the Justice House report? Are you prepared to overhaul our outdated and ineffectual drug and alcohol program? Are you prepared to implement the recommendations of the health and social services review and the family law review?

We are very pleased with the government's response to the Justice House report but we are concerned about the lack of available dollars to put in place the resources we need to deal with the issues at the community level. We believe that community justice is indeed one of the long- term solutions and well worth pursuing, but we must assure that healthy people are on justice committees and that they are representative of and made up of community people including men, women, elders and youth. Training is an important issue in this area, and so funding, once again, becomes a problem.

The issue of treatment of violent offenders is a major concern. We are aware that the GNWT does not have the resources, at present, to properly treat offenders, and we do want to comment on what we see as a potentially dangerous trend to see perpetrators as victims. People have to take responsibility for their actions and we will never overcome our violence if people don't do that.

One possible solution to some funding and resource problems could be more partnership initiatives between government and non-government organizations. The Department of Health has had some very successful partnerships, resulting in initiatives and resources which probably could not have been afforded by government alone. Non-government organizations can apply to sources of funding unavailable to government and the partnership facilities grassroots involvements and community acceptance.

I want to thank you for your attention and allow me to make one final plea to you to act quickly upon the zero tolerance declaration. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Lynn Brooks. I have Sandy Christophers, NWT Council for Disabled Persons. Sandy.

Presentation By NWT Council For Disabled Persons

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon to Madam Premier, the Ministers and the honourable Members.

There has been very little research carried out in the area of violence against persons with disabilities. The NWT Council for Disabled Persons is hosting two conferences during the month of February, where we will address some of these issues for the first time. One conference will take place in Iqaluit, and one will take place in Fort Smith. We hope to gain some valuable insight about the extent of violence in the lives of northerners with disabilities, from these meetings.

Although we do not have statistical information about the extent of family violence on persons with disabilities, we have heard the personal testimony of many of our clients. For many people, violence is so much a part of their lives that they know no other way to live. Factors, such as alcohol and drug abuse, economic reliance on the abuser and lack of services, such as counselling, make it virtually impossible for a person with a disability to escape an abusive situation.

Tabled document "Building a Strategy for Dealing with Violence in the NWT" describes the nature of violence in the territories and outlines some of the elements for building a strategy. Some of these strategies must be adapted slightly to better suit the needs of northerners with disabilities, and there are some additional factors which contribute to family violence for persons with disabilities.

Nature Of Violence

The building a strategy document states that native people suffer all the symptoms of poverty, in addition to cultural dislocation. People with disabilities often suffer even more intensely from poverty because of low skill levels, discrimination by potential employers, limited number of jobs in the community and difficulty travelling to and from the work place, particularly in bad weather. People with disabilities often survive solely on a small allowance from an agency, such as Social Services. Thus, feelings of isolation, frustration and powerlessness are often even more acute for an individual with a disability.

The building a strategy document also states that people sometimes turn to alcohol and drugs as a way of covering up their sense of powerlessness. Disabled persons often feel even more powerless than the people around them. Thus, it can be even more tempting for a person with a disability to abuse alcohol or drugs.

In the past, people who became disabled, or children born with disabilities in the north were almost always sent to facilities in the south. However, as times change, more and more people with disabilities are staying in their communities, or even being repatriated from southern institutions. Therefore, many communities are now dealing with disability issues, such as accessibility, they have never had to address before. This can be a drain on the already limited resources of the community. It can also create a dependency and vulnerability to community members for the individuals with the disability. They become anxious to fit in with the rest of the community and reluctant to make waves.

One of the biggest barriers to eliminating family violence is denial. A code of silence is maintained to prevent violence from coming to light. It can be especially difficult for a person with a disability to admit that he or she is being abused. For example, there are often communication difficulties, such as there being no one present who can understand sign language. Individuals may have some type of speech impairment or be very limited in mobility. Many people must rely on the person who is abusing them to get around. If you are rarely away from your aggressor, the chances of you admitting the abuse to anyone are awfully slim.

In the past the criminal justice system has been very ineffective for persons with disabilities. There has been limited use of alternative forms of communications, such as Braille or sign language. The language used is often technical and details can be difficult for the victim to understand. Court houses and RCMP stations are often physically inaccessible.

Through programs such as Yellowknife Victims Services, there has been some movement in the north to become more sensitive to the needs of persons with disabilities. Although this is a very positive step, these programs are still very limited. Many RCMP officers, lawyers, judges and social workers could still benefit from disability awareness training.

Elements Of A Strategy

The building a strategy document offers a variety of suggestions for reducing family violence. Some of these can be adapted slightly to better suit the needs of northerners with disabilities.

The Government of the Northwest Territories and the people of the north have made eliminating substance abuse a priority. Drug and alcohol counsellors are already overworked in many communities. However, for a variety of reasons, few clients with disabilities are currently receiving treatment. Many treatment centres are not physically accessible, information is not available in alternative format. In addition, sometimes people with mental disabilities, as well as mental illness, are perceived as untreatable. We must try to make drug and alcohol counsellors...

Thank you. For the interpreters and translators, could you slow a little bit, please. This is a very important issue and we would like to have a clear translation for the benefit of some of the Members here. Thank you. Proceed please.

We have tried to make drug and alcohol counsellors aware of the needs of persons with disabilities and be aware of issues like accessibility when we run our programs.

People with disabilities, particularly women, are often perceived as either happy, humble and accepting of all that happens to them, or embittered, blaming everyone else for their situation and lashing out indiscriminately. We must continue to raise respect for persons with disabilities in our society, through public education awareness programs, so that we can change public attitudes about violence and abuse and make it completely unacceptable.

It is important that reform and improvement of the educational system continue to be a priority of the government. However, it is equally important that the needs of students with disabilities, particularly those with fetal alcohol syndrome and fetal alcohol effect, are also addressed. Funding for equipment, special needs assistants, and programs must not be eliminated if we are to effectively educate all students and significantly decrease the drop-out rates.

People with disabilities are often physically as well as economically dependant on their aggressor. Therefore, they may be extremely reluctant to testify against their abuser. As stated previously, court support services, such as community-based victims assistance groups have helped reduce some of the fear, confusion and isolation of some victims. We must continue to encourage the development of programs such as these and volunteers should always be made aware of the special needs of persons with disabilities.

There is a variety of information available which reinforces to victims that they do not have to live in violent situations. Through mediums such as pamphlets and posters, people are told where to access services and what they can do to help stop the cycle of violence. But very often, victims with disabilities do not receive this information. We would strongly encourage the use of braille, sign language and audio-visual formats of such material to help make it accessible to everyone.

Many victims of abuse are unable to speak for themselves. We should encourage professionals, such as special needs assistants, police officers and social workers, to recognize signs and symptoms of abuse in a person with a disability so that it does not go undetected.

It can be physically exhausting and emotionally draining for a care giver to meet the needs of a person with a disability. Most communities have very limited respite care services. Care givers must often go months and months without any kind of break. Thus, care givers become tired and frustrated and have very little energy left for other family members. This can sometimes lead to abusive situations. The respite care policy being developed by the departments of Health and Social Services can help eliminate this kind of scenario.

Finally, in the NWT, there are a limited number of employment programs which are specially designed for person with disabilities. For example, the NWT Council for Disabled Persons administers a very successful employment program. This is an essential service as other employment services are not able to meet the needs of clients with disabilities as effectively. Funding for these programs must not be eliminated.

The needs of persons with disabilities were not specifically identified in the Building a Strategy for Dealing with Violence in the NWT document. However, the NWT Council for Disabled Persons was very pleased to be invited to make this presentation. Although we have a long way to go, awareness of disability issues in the north continues to increase. The council hopes that as some of the strategies for eliminating family violence in the north are implemented, these issues are always taken into consideration. We are available for disability awareness training and to answer any questions or concerns at any time.

Lastly, I would invite all the Members to visit some of the facilities for people with disabilities in the north and listen to some of the stories of violence or abuse of the residents who live in these places. We have people in group homes in Yellowknife and every single one of them has been abused. Every single one. I would also invite you to visit the schools in every single community in the north and realize the numbers of children with fetal alcohol syndrome and fetal alcohol effects and think about what kind of future lies ahead for them if we don't do something to increase programs and services available to people with disabilities. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Ms. Sandy Christophers. Next is the Native Women's Association and Ms. Bertha Allen.

Presentation By Native Women's Association

I would like to thank the Premier, the Honourable Nellie Cournoyea, the Minister of Justice, Stephen Kakfwi, and all the Members of this Legislative Assembly. I know that if you weren't interested in family violence, you would not have invited this group to speak to you on how we can attempt to address the end of violence in our communities.

The Native Women's Association is very concerned about the high stats of crime rates. But, we say that there is enough

research on the issue of family violence. The time is ripe, the time is now, to strike up a working committee, made up of women's groups, men's support groups, elders, the disabled and Members of this House to start addressing the issue of family violence. Otherwise, I predict a continuation of community violence, a justice system that is expensive to maintain, a judicial system that has a backlog of cases.

We don't want you to think that family violence is only a women's issue. Family violence affects the whole community. A holistic approach is very essential. We can no longer work in our own little corners, in isolation, and hope that we can outdo the other initiative in family violence. For every young person in our court system, we must address that person holistically. What do I mean by holistically? I mean we look at that person physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually.

We also must look at financial contributions the holistic way. To me, that is to financially support the interagency. We can no longer say that it is the responsibility of the justice system when a young person comes into the court system. We have to start talking to the Department of Education, Social Services and all other departments that have an interest in making the community a safer place to stay.

We need to pool all our resources together and we need you, as legislators, and your departments to work with us. We may help you. We may suggest where there is need for changes in your policies. The Status of Women's Association has already told you where you can make cuts. We are good at that, if you give us that opportunity. Together, we can start to address problems and search for solutions.

What I have spoken about cannot happen in isolation. We have concerns about the communities. What our communities have said to us is healing must take place first. What do we mean by healing? Healing is a long painful process. I am sure if any of you are invited to family violence workshops, you will feel the pain. You will feel the pain of our care givers. Because the care givers are the ones who are directly involved with helping those people who have lived in violent situations. The healing process is allowing someone to talk, allowing someone to grieve. That is not an easy job. We get very emotional. In order to be of any help to that person, we have to feel their pain with them. This is what the communities have said. They need to go through that healing process.

There is another way to heal that some of our contemporary aboriginal people are going through. That is going back to our spirituality and that is helping many of our old people in the regions to heal. I am not going to give you an experience of what it is to see a grieving person. When I talk about the hurt of our women out in the communities, I get very emotional, but I am not going to cry because I don't know how you would take me crying up here.

We all know that violence is usually based on power and control. It is a result of this power and control. The vulnerable members of our society are the weaker members of our society, they are the women and our children, they are the elders of our community and they are the disabled. There are many dysfunctional families in our society. If we don't do anything now, as a group, and working in partnership, we can expect the women, children, elders and disabled to continue to experience neglect. They will continue to be the prisoners of an alcoholic culture and society.

Now I will throw out some questions. What can the Government of the NWT do? We are really thankful that you have lead in the declaration of zero tolerance to family violence. Now what does that really mean? What does that mean to each one of you when you took that declaration seriously? I hope you took it seriously. Does that mean that you will start coming out to public meetings when the care givers call for meetings? Or, are you going to continue...Gee, I am talking to the wrong people, I should be talking to the community leadership, but I will talk to you, anyway.

Our care givers in the communities are experiencing problems. It is said yes, you are doing a terrific job, I will go to your meetings to listen to you. But many times, these care givers talk to the converted, their co-workers. That is the end of the meeting. It is very frustrating for our care givers in the community. No wonder they are burning out. But now that you have made a declaration, will you publicly voice your concerns about family violence? Will you go on TV and talk to your peers, saying we want to live in a non-violent society? I hope you will. And tell the leaders, both at the local level and at the level of this House, until they start taking a public stand on family violence, I really cannot see any great improvement. But, because you have taken the initiative to invite us here, I am going to be trustful. I am going to trust you. You are the law-makers. You have the authority to make the changes. I'm going to trust that something is going to happen. The beginning is now. We are willing. Are you willing to work in partnership in developing a strategy to address community violence? If so, there is an implementation process. Like I said, to be an effective strategy, we need equal partnership in dealing with strategy and implementation. We realize that, as our Government of the Northwest Territories, you cannot do it on your own. We realize and have known for a long time, we as care givers, we as women's groups, cannot do it on our own. But, together we can accomplish much to restore our human values and to restore our dignity. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Bertha Allen. After Mr. Okpik's presentation I will call for a short break. It's not the tradition of the House, but I will invite the witnesses to our Members' lounge for coffee during the break. I have Mr. Abe Okpik, National Advisory Council on Aging. Mr. Okpik.

Presentation By National Advisory Council On Aging

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Premier, the Speaker, the Minister of Justice and the ordinary MLAs who are representing the Dene people, the Inuit and the other people. I greatly appreciate being here to give a presentation. When I was asked, I wanted to come here to give a presentation on behalf of the elders.

I first became involved with the National Advisory Council on Aging two years ago. I go to meetings three times a year to discuss topics. I'm sure you were given our papers. It covers just about everything and we're trying to have a better understanding. The population of the elders is increasing in Canada. We meet with people from coast to coast so the elders can be recognized. I am not really aware of all the details, but I have been a social worker and I have observed our children going to school. There are different kinds of councils and the Assembly, and I hear them through the radio. We will be achieving Nunavut.

What I want to say, back in 1980, the council started because they were concerned about the aging. They were encouraged by the Minister of Health to have such a council for the aging. One of the reasons they requested that, was that MACA was concerned about the elders in the whole country of Canada. It doesn't matter where you're from, you're bound to get older. Because our federal government was concerned that we were being left nowhere. You will get older. They decided to come up with that council and they also invite Inuit leaders, to see what they are doing today. They produce documents about what they are doing. I have some of the material that is in Inuktitut, English and French.

When I was asked to give a presentation here...We all hear about family violence, even to our spouses and children. We hear from different people. It's about time we voice our concerns on family violence and try to fully understand why we're doing that. This was not a very open subject to talk about a while back, but it's coming out in the open and everybody is starting to work harder at it. The three women who gave presentations before me, the presentations they mentioned are very true because they have felt it as well as we and our children.

In the north, we hear about family violence, whether its through the radio or news. We sometimes hear that it happens even to the elders by their grandchildren, that the elders...For Inuit, we have a tradition ourselves and the Dene have their own tradition, as do non-aboriginal people. Even though we all have different cultures, this is very painful for us to experience.

We try to teach our children. We know even if the person has a very high education...For example, if you have a dog team, sometimes one of the dogs bugs the other dogs and it is not very good for the whole team. It is always going to be like that in a society where there will be that person. It gets very stressful. One of the reasons might be a shortage of housing, even though we want our grandchildren to be with us. The grandparents want to look after their grandchildren because there are no jobs, or because of alcohol and drugs. Those are not the only reasons. A lot of it is gambling, playing cards or bingo. These things don't improve the home situations either. If we just sit back and try to wait for someone to do something, it will never happen. We have to sit down and start working hard and try to improve these situations.

Looking at it from the elders' side, they might be pushed around or assaulted, because they don't provide the food the family wants. Even if they want to go to the hospital, they are scared to go by themselves. This is very emotional. They are not only physically abused, but they are mentally abused, also. They want to be involved with their children. Myself, when I was asked to come here to give a presentation because of this problem, we have to deal with it this way. We cannot just forget about it and not solve it. It is not just us, there are other groups and organizations in the north.

I would like to mention something about once the elders are at a certain age, they get a pension. It is not just in the north, but also down south. There are so many frauds in the NWT and we have to tell our children that they have to trust their parents. Once you get older, we are all going to go through the same thing. One of the witnesses said that the victims are going through very difficult times, which is very true, because of a shortage of housing. Sometimes, if we go to the social workers, they are not qualified. Those are just examples.

Someone mentioned that the women don't understand. If you go to Iqaluit, there is the Royal Canadian Legion. One of the women asked if she could be involved. There are also winter tents built into the communities because there are no trees. It was designed according to the wishes of the women. I wish to thank the Minister of Justice, Mr. Kakfwi. What you have said is very true. If we try to work together to have zero tolerance with family violence, this report that was produced by the Legislative Assembly asks about being a social worker or nurse and how that can be accomplished. The elders were consulted and they want full recognition because we have the wisdom to pass on to the younger generation. We can give advice to the younger generation.

The non-aboriginal people in Yellowknife also work hard in having opportunities to meet. There was also a meeting in the spring, trying to get more information on how the elders used to live. I would like to thank Dusty Miller and Mr. Braden.

The woman in the middle mentioned a presentation on the disabled. I appreciate the comments she made, even though this was a very closed subject before. Now, we hear it through media, TV and radio. I cannot run because I have a certain disability. I have been like this since I was 13 years old. At the time, I wasn't even answered when I asked about this.

I would just like to say to the Members now, that many people have to go to court and it is not very pleasant. It is not just me who knows about this. You, as leaders, have to put things in the best interest of the people that you serve.

You are here to make policies and laws. I would like to thank the three women who are here with me who are representing women and are working very hard on the subject of family abuse.

When we first got radio reception a long time ago, it was over thirty years ago, we heard on the radio then that a person beat his wife and sent her to the hospital. The elders were sitting around and talking about it. What was he thinking? That man came out of a woman and yet he is beating the woman he was living with. That was one of the questions that was raised. One of the hardest things is giving birth to a baby and it should be recognized it could be that painful if they are beaten. I would like to very much thank you for being invited to come here. We will not forget the people who have to go through family violence. Don't just give them something. Give them advice for what they should be doing. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to give a presentation.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Abe Okpik. I let the presenters go past 15 minutes even though it was a rule, but knowing they don't have many opportunities throughout the year to make presentations, I was able to let you go beyond 15 minutes. Now, we will take a short ten minute break. After the break, I will entertain questions from the House to the Ministers, the Premier and witnesses. Witnesses, there is coffee back there. Thank you.

---SHORT RECESS

I would like to call the committee to order. We've heard presentations from the Minister of Justice, the Premier and the witnesses. Now the floor is open for general comments. Mr. Dent.

General Comments

Hear, hear.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. General comments. Mr. Lewis.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't have many comments to make. Anything I have to say will be in relation to the proposed declaration on family violence.

I think all Members would agree that when you seek and hold public office, your commitment is to make sure that within your society, the weakest people are not going to be abused by the most powerful. That's the definition of an uncivilized society, when you get chaos and violence where the most vulnerable people become victims. For that reason, I think, today we have people who have talked to us about the most vulnerable people in our society: children, the elderly and disabled people.

My question, Mr. Chairman, is to the Minister. Since the basic principle here is that within families there are vulnerable people...Although we recognize that the abuse essentially takes place when men exert power over the most vulnerable, we seem to exclude in the declaration any reference whatsoever to disabled people and to the elderly. I think a small correction could be made so the other vulnerable groups are also included in this, without reducing the main focus which is the major one I think we want to outline, which is that family violence consists predominantly of violence by men against women and children. I think we can leave that there, if that's the sort of main thrust of what we want to do.

It seems to me that if we're talking about the family and we're talking about our society, the reason we've invited the four people here today is to hear the complete story. I think we would be doing a disservice if we don't recognize that the main function of a legislature is to make sure we are fair to all our people, and we pay specific attention to the most vulnerable people in our society so they are not exploited.

So I would propose that, at the appropriate time and place, we include reference to the other vulnerable groups. For example, maybe in the first portion here, where we talk about violence, we could say violence against women, children, the disabled and the elderly, then violence within the family in particular, then carry on with the sentence. You would still have your second sentence which deals with the main issue, the fact that men are the greatest perpetrators of this violence against the more vulnerable people.

I think we could do the same thing at the end when the declaration is made, that we will include the other groups as well. I'm very much in support of what you have done to take this as an initiative, to bring it to the House. I certainly was impressed by the four witnesses, particularly Mrs. Allen. I was impressed with everybody but I was very moved by what she had to say, and I certainly would support adopting such a declaration.

I also believe that the point that Mr. Dent has made is probably even more crucial. Because the major criticism of any group of people who adopt a declaration...It sounds great, wonderful words and so on, but unless you can find some way in which you can identify what zero tolerance is...How do you identify it? How do you show it? How do you demonstrate it? It's not going to be effective unless there are some things that you can measure whether what you've agreed to do is achieving the effect that you want. That would be something we would have to look at after adopting this declaration, to give it some teeth by looking at what things we have in our statutes that would give us the teeth we would need so that the public would be convinced that we are not just uttering fine words in this House. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Lewis. For the information of the witnesses, Mr. Charles Dent was the chairman of the Special Committee on Health and Social Services. I believe the honourable Member is seeking some response from the Minister of Justice. Minister of Justice.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. General comments. Mr. Ballantyne.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to thank everybody who has appeared before us today. Your words were very important and very timely. I think MLAs were listening very carefully to what you all had to say. Progress in the area of family violence is painfully slow, as the representatives from the Status of Women Council, Pauktuutit, the Council for the Disabled, the Native Women's Association and the Senior Association have pointed out. I think you know all too well.

I remember Norma Wickler, who many of you may know, who is and was a pioneer in the field of gender equality in the American justice system. She likened progress to water wearing down a stone. Whenever she was discouraged, she could always give herself energy to fight again by realizing that as long as you are making progress, even if it is slow, it is really worth pursuing. Progress is also very controversial and I really commend Minister Kakfwi for a consistent approach in this area. I think his words and deeds have been consistent. It is not an easy area and it's not an area where you're going to win a lot of political points. It is a very difficult area.

Anyone who has worked in any of the initiatives over the last number of years, whether it is the Family Law Review, or the lead up to the report of the special advisor on gender equality, or even changing the system so that we had a victim surcharge. That was really difficult to get through the system. The problem is, there are so many different perceptions about what is right and what is wrong, what is real and what isn't real. Women and men often have different perceptions. Aboriginal men and aboriginal women have different perceptions. The people involved in the justice system, themselves, have their own view of the world. So, when you're trying to bring about change, you can be assured it will be difficult and controversial.

I think the most important thing is to put all the issues out on the table and work your way through them. There are no heroes in this. Everybody has to try their very best and expect that it is going to be a very difficult and, at times, a very frustrating process.

I'm happy to see that the Minister of Justice has treated the Justice House report seriously. I have a couple of comments about the whole justice field. I think it is key, and I've always thought this, that if we are going to have a holistic approach, in the justice system, to the problems, then our government has to take over the responsibility for prosecutions. We almost did it and then, for a number of unclear reasons, Kim Campbell decided that she wanted to keep it. That is what happened. I would strongly recommend that the Minister pursue that. I think it's very difficult to have a total approach to the legal system without having control over prosecution.

I think the area of victims' rights is an area in which we have made a start, but there is a long way to go. A legitimate concern, especially of many women's organizations, is that when we talk about rehabilitation and trying to help the perpetrator, that the focus on the victim will lessen. I think we have to understand that, ultimately, the victim is the innocent one in this kind of confrontation. Whatever we do, and everybody recognizes that we have to do a lot more than we've done as far as rehabilitating the perpetrators, let's never take away from the primary focus of support to the victim. I think that's very important to remember. Again, it is another example of how difficult this whole area can be.

At times in the past, we've kicked around the idea of a unified court here in the Northwest Territories. There are some positive aspects of efficiency and cost-savings. In a small jurisdiction, it is difficult to have a full court, but maybe a judge who specializes in the whole area of family law could be established. I think that is, again, something we should probably continue to pursue.

I've always felt very strongly that child sexual abuse is the single most difficult issue facing the people of the Northwest Territories. I think it is the most dangerous cancer eating away at the fabric of the Northwest Territories. With generation after generation of child sexual abuse, it multiplies at an alarming rate and destabilizes families and total communities. Sometimes, I think we talk about constitutional development and we talk about how we want to have control of our own land, if we don't deal with this part of the equation, what we'll have control of will be a total disaster. I think we have to always keep that balance.

Essentially, a society that can't protect its children is really a doomed society. It's a society that has no vitality and is heading for self-destruction, ultimately.

Over the years, we've heard demands by a lot of people, especially women in the community who have been abused and who have suffered rapes and sexual assaults, for stronger sentences. Everyone recognizes that the jails and the correctional institutes are not the total answer. There is no doubt in my mind that, especially for repeated violent sexual offenders against women and children, stronger sentences are a must. I believe that. I don't think you can get away from the responsibility of a society to say that under no circumstances will we condone violent sexual offences against women and children.

I am pleased with the strong stand taken by the Minister of Justice. I hope this Legislative Assembly will support the Minister in his approach. I think, as other people, Mr. Lewis and Mr. Dent have said, that when we talk about family violence we can't forget the seniors and the disabled. The seniors here in Yellowknife, in October, had a very productive workshop done by One Voice, the National Seniors' Network. The results of that workshop are available to Members, and I would urge Members to read that to get an idea of the problems facing seniors, not just here in the north but across the country.

I personally support the principle of zero tolerance. I support it very strongly. I think Mr. Kakfwi and Mr. Dent and his committee ought to be commended for bringing it forward. They've both said, and everyone who's talked about this, including the women's organizations, said it's a beginning. I think Lynn Brooks said today it's a very important beginning. I really have no problem, myself, with putting my money where my mouth is and saying we should put some legislation in, so that if a Member is convicted of family violence, they should lose their seat. I have no problem, whatsoever, doing that. I think, if we are to support a policy of zero tolerance, I think that would be an important part of it if we, as leaders, are to set an example.

I would like to finish by saying -- just to reiterate what Mr. Lewis said -- that a society that allows its weak and vulnerable people to be preyed upon is really not a society at all. I think if we are to have pride in our society, if we are to develop every aspect of our society, we have to make every effort possible to protect the vulnerable in our society. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Ballantyne. I have Mr. Whitford.

Thank you, Mr. Whitford. Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I think this is a very important debate. I was thinking today about the debate on the task force on spousal assault when it was presented to the 10th Assembly in Fort Smith. I think some of us were there at that time. I think it was a very important moment for the Legislature and the people of the Northwest Territories because it brought that issue out, maybe for the first time, in a very visible way.

There were moving presentations, including some by Members, who publicly acknowledged their own failings. I think we should, although there is an enormous amount to do, note we have come some distance, even if it is just water wearing down the stone. We have made some progress. We are, again, confronting this issue openly and with candour and passion. That is very important. I would like to thank the presenters. I want to say that I liked the challenge from Bertha Allen and Lynn Brooks on behalf of the Status of Women to us: will we publicly voice our concerns, will we say we want to live in a non-violent society, will we confront leaders, political peers, who are not role models?

There have been remarks made at public meetings over the years -- I've attended a number -- sometimes by elders, which have been very contrary to what we're talking about today. We hear people blame shelters for marriage breakdown and the like. I think the days are over when those kinds of comments are going to be tolerated. I was pleased that, at a recent Nunavut leadership meeting, that issue was confronted and an apology was given about a statement that was not acceptable that was made about shelters. I think this consciousness is being raised and this debate today will do its part.

I want to try to get concrete here because we've got to make this real. As an Assembly, I think we should adopt the declaration that has been tabled by Mr. Kakfwi, and I commend him for that. There is a formal motion being circulated to Members, which takes into account Mr. Lewis's comments and I think we should take that action and we should do it in formal session. Perhaps, since we've focused on this issue this afternoon, we should introduce that motion tomorrow, in formal session. I hope all Members will support it.

But, we've all said this is only a step. I think what is even more important will be to take the next step and respond to Mr. Kakfwi's suggestion -- and I've heard several other Members endorse it -- that we have the courage to make legislative changes to revoke the privilege of holding public office, including those appointed to boards and agencies under the auspices of the Government of the Northwest Territories, including those elected to municipal office in the Northwest Territories, who are convicted of crimes of family violence. I think this would be an enormous statement to our people that we are serious about this.

I know, right now, of a Baffin Island community that has several members sitting on the community education council who have been convicted of sexual assault against children. What does this say to the people in that community? What does it say to the children, to the youth of that community? We're still a small enough society that everybody knows what's going on and what's been done.

So I would like to -- once the Assembly adopts the declaration -- encourage the Minister of Justice to put flesh to this declaration, and to bring forward a legislative action paper which would propose these concrete legislative changes. I feel that if our government is paying honoraria and expenses for people who are holding these positions of public trust, we have a right to demand certain standards. We already have legislation that disqualifies people from any of our boards and agencies if they are in conflict of interest, if they use the position to their personal, pecuniary advantage -- I think is the legal jargon that's used in our Conflict of Interest Act. So let's do the same thing for people who abuse the public trust by committing crimes of violence against family.

I'd like to here, publicly encourage the Minister of Justice to respond to his own challenge and present a legislative action paper. I suspect it will be unprecedented in the country. It may raise the spectre of the charter. I don't care. I think we should look at it and examine it seriously, and put -- as some Members have said -- our money where our mouth is. I think that would help make this important discussion real.

The third issue I think we have to address -- and I don't have an answer today to propose. We've had several of the excellent presenters, including Martha Flaherty, in her letter, say there has to be an accountability framework. Mrs. Allen suggested a process, a committee involving groups like hers to tackle the ongoing strategy of eliminating violence. I know the NWT Seniors' Society in the person of its president, Ms. Braden, who is here in the gallery, has plans to pursue the results of their workshop on elder abuse with a network which would respond and lead to action. I think everybody is agreeing that there needs to be a method of making this strategy real in all the activities of our government. That is something that undoubtedly the Premier, in her capacity as Minister for Status of Women, and the Minister of Justice could also pursue and report back to this Assembly on an action plan.

I know the spousal assault task force, which was only a beginning, lead to an action plan which then lead to real things happening, including the establishment of shelters. I think that's what we need on the family violence strategy, is once we do a declaration in formal session, which I hope we can all agree now should be done, then we should look at legislative change to revoke the privileges of holding public office as an example to the people of the Northwest Territories, for those convicted of offences of family violence and, thirdly, come forward with a long-term strategy to achieve the objectives of zero tolerance and give it recognition and reality in all the activities of our government.

I hope that this debate will be the beginning of those very important changes. I certainly will want to be a strong supporter of that action being taken as a priority by this Assembly. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.