Good afternoon. Item 2, Ministers' statements. The honourable Member for Baffin Central, Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. As my colleague, the Minister of Justice, has stated, our departments have developed a plan of action to implement the changes recommended in the family law review. The Department of Social Services will work closely with the Department of Justice in revising the Child Welfare Act. However, in addition to these legislative changes, there will be a requirement for major changes to existing policy and procedures.

Excuse me, Ms. Mike. I believe one of our Members is not receiving translation. Sorry. Member for Baffin Central.

Thank you, Madam Speaker, I will try again. Madam Speaker, as my colleague, the Minister of Justice, has stated, our departments have developed a plan of action to implement the changes recommended in the family law review. The Department of Social Services will work closely with the Department of Justice in revising the Child Welfare Act. However, in addition to these legislative changes, there will be a requirement for major changes to existing policy and procedures. This will, of course, require retraining of existing staff.

Here is a brief outline of what will have to be done to make the legislative and policy changes a reality:

- Assist in drafting the revised Child Welfare Act;

- Develop and train local child welfare committees wherever communities want to take on this responsibility;

- Negotiate agreements delegating ministerial authority to communities for child welfare;

- Revise child protection policies to recognize the role of child welfare committees and to give them the scope they need for innovative solutions;

- Revise child apprehension and placement procedures;

- Restructure budgets to provide funding to communities and local child welfare committees;

- Develop and train local bodies to take on this responsibility;

- Revise custom adoption procedures;

- Revise adoption policies to institutionalize the open adoption concept and recognize community roles in the process;

- Revise placement criteria and procedures in line with the recommendations of the family law review;

- Develop and fund local counselling resources to provide pre-adoption counselling;

- Clear custom adoption backlog of 1,500 cases and deal with annual volume of 400 applications.

Madam Speaker, these changes will start the process of family law reform. However, the task will not be complete at that point. The real work is the ongoing implementation by communities as they adapt to their new roles and responsibilities and determine solutions that respect local traditions and values. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you. Item 2, Ministers' statements. The honourable Member for Kivallivik, Mr. Arngna'naaq.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate all our athletes, coaches, officials and cultural performers who participated in the Arctic Winter Games in Slave Lake last week.

---Applause

It was great to see how the Northwest Territories athletes were making friends and providing encouragement to athletes from other contingents when language was a significant barrier. I'm sure there were many friendships made last week that will last a lifetime.

I am pleased to inform you that the Northwest Territories athletes brought home 151 medals, the most of any contingent.

---Applause

This is the first time in ten years and we are all very proud. Very shortly, I will be distributing to Members a comprehensive summary of Arctic Winter Games results.

The residents of Slave Lake also deserve a medal for the excellent job they did in hosting this international event. I'm told that over 2,000 volunteers were involved from a community of only 6,000 people. The Northwest Territories uniforms stood out in both the opening and closing ceremonies and were in great demand as trading items throughout the week. I would ask that all Members join me in showing our appreciation for the athletes, coaches and officials as well as the host community of Slave Lake, Alberta. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Madam Premier.

Madam Speaker, I would like to inform the House that the Honourable John Todd will be absent from the House today. This is because of a flight cancellation in Rankin Inlet. Mr. Todd will be back in the House tomorrow. Thank you.

Thank you. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Baffin South, Mr. Pudlat.

(Translation) Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to take this time today to congratulate the people of Lake Harbour who recently participated in the Arctic Winter Games in Slave Lake, Alberta. I'm very proud to inform the House that three young athletes from my community all emerged from the games with medals, proving their excellence in the area of Arctic sports. Madam Speaker, Olitua Judea won a silver and gold ulu in Arctic sports, Julie Oolayou won a silver medal in Arctic sports and Julie Mingeriak also won a silver medal in Arctic sports. Once again, congratulations on behalf of the Legislative Assembly for representing your community and the Northwest Territories so well in the 1994 Arctic Winter Games. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Kitikmeot, Mr. Ng.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. On March 7 and 8, I, along with my honourable colleagues, Mr. Ballantyne, Mr. Dent, Mr. Zoe and the Honourable John Todd, had the opportunity to attend the Prospectors and Developers of Canada mining and trade show in Toronto. Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated and the City of Yellowknife/Chamber of Commerce had booths at the trade show which certainly received their fair share of attention, as the awareness of the NWT and the ongoing diamond exploration developments were a major topic of discussion.

In addition to the numerous amount of business people participating in the conference trade show, Mr. Charlie Lyall, president of the Kitikmeot Corporation and Mr. James Eetoolook, acting president of Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated, also attended the conference as delegates.

Madam Speaker, during our stay in Toronto, we had the opportunity to meet privately with Dr. Klaus Zeitler, president of Metall Mining Corporation and his staff respecting their plans with the Izok Lake project. We also met with Mr. John Stephensen, president of Kennecott Canada Incorporated respecting their plans in the Northwest Territories.

Madam Speaker, our Minister suggested and received support to form a steering committee of senior officials with DIAND, GNWT and of mining companies to explore the area of options for identifying, financing and establishing transportation infrastructure requirements for the mining industry for the Slave geological corridor.

The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed, Mr. Ng.

Thank you. Madam Speaker, during our meetings with mining industry representatives, they outlined their acknowledgement and commitment to develop any proposed mining developments with the full involvement of northern and aboriginal people, the need to address environmental concerns and to satisfy northern interest. Their acknowledgement of these concerns is a positive sign. However, one must keep in mind that they have faced these issues before. Madam Speaker, once again, I will stress the need for our government, in full consultation with aboriginal groups, to continue pursuing the devolution of mining responsibilities from the federal government in order to ensure the interests of all northerners are respected. We, as legislators, must show our support to the GNWT in assuming these responsibilities as there is a

possibility of mineral developments in all of our regions in the future.

Madam Speaker, it will be a lot more responsive dealing with our government instead of the federal government to address any concerns respecting mining activities in the NWT, whether it be now, a year from now or in 1999 upon the creation of two new territories. Mahsi cho.

---Applause

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Iqaluit, Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I am pleased to be back here in the Assembly after a wonderful week at the Arctic Winter Games. (Translation) I would like to congratulate the athletes. (End of translation)

However, here is my main concern. There are many Inuit in my riding who live in very crowded extended family situations. The sons and daughters are not living on their own because of a shortage of single or smaller housing units. Often you have whole families in a room.

Also, Inuit families are wiling to live together in conditions of considerable overcrowding because of their tradition of family closeness. Often, several sons and daughters will hold low income jobs and contribute to the operation of the household. The total household income may be higher than a single or double income household, but I am concerned that the proposed revised rent scale may not take into account the unbelievably crowded conditions in which many of these families live.

I am also concerned that rents in Nunavut must take into account the extraordinary costs of living in these communities which don't have wood and roads. I am, therefore, suggesting to the Minister of the Housing Corporation that the revised rent scale, if it does not already, must consider the degree of crowding in a unit along with total household income. There should be a significant discount built in where families are living in more crowded conditions than the ordinary standards.

Secondly, I am going to suggest that the cost of living and condition of the unit must be taken into account to reduce rent so as to provide for equity and fairness. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Yellowknife South, Mr. Whitford.

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Deh Cho, Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise today to speak on a subject that is close to my heart. I have always been concerned about the erosion of the aboriginal culture in the Northwest Territories. I believe that some of the programs that this government has introduced over the last ten years may look good on paper, but have done little to support the people's aspirations at the grassroots community level.

Madam Speaker, the attempts of the divisional boards to incorporate cultural and traditional instructions in curriculum may be a noble effort. But I ask, Madam Speaker, how do you teach a child about their heritage, about our close ties with mother earth, in a classroom? The whole concept of traditional knowledge does not lend itself to the institutional setting such as school. By taking responsibility away from the community and legislating the cultural and traditional knowledge that is to be taught in school, we, as a government, are seen to be interfering in an area we have no jurisdiction in.

Madam Speaker, we, as a government, have signed a language agreement with the federal government. This agreement gives us money to spend on the promotion of aboriginal languages. The problem I have with this, Madam Speaker, is that it seems to me all the money we receive under this agreement is being spent on bureaucrats. I do not see this money filtering down to the community level, to the people it most affects and is relevant to. This, in my opinion, is another example of the top-heavy Government of the Northwest Territories.

Madam Speaker, there has been much talk over the past couple of sessions on the issue of custom adoption. The government has promised to introduce legislation to deal with this important issue. The problem I have with this, Madam Speaker, is that if we legitimize custom adoption, that is if we, as a legislature, adopt a Euro-Canadian set of laws and recognitions to deal with custom adoption, we are not just defeating the entire cultural rationalization for the practice of custom adoption.

Madam Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to complete my statement.

Thank you. The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to continue. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Proceed, Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Madam Speaker, and honourable Members. Madam Speaker, I urge this government to remember that by formalizing the process for custom adoption, they are in some cases interfering with the process that has remained unchanged for hundreds of years. The government has a responsibility to the people of the Northwest Territories. The people of the Northwest Territories prefer to deal with the issues of custom adoption at the local and family level. The legislation should not be so all-encompassing that it interferes with the process at the local level.

Madam Speaker, legislating traditional values and customs may be seen as legitimizing them. What I am saying is why do we have to do this? These practices are already legitimate. Madam Speaker, we have started down a road where we, as a government, are becoming too involved in deciding what we feel is good for aboriginal people, instead of the aboriginal people being responsible for what is ultimately their own tradition and customs. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. The honourable Member for Baffin Central, Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a return to an oral question asked by Mr. Allooloo on February 19, 1994 regarding the number of housing units required for the new positions.

It is too soon to say how many housing units will be required for the new positions in level II and III communities. Some of the positions will undoubtedly be filled locally by candidates who already have their own accommodation, but we will not know until we have had a chance to review the position descriptions for the new positions. All housing needs will be considered during the community staff housing assessments in the next few weeks.

The majority of the new positions are for divisional school boards. The Department of Education is still working with each divisional board to finalize the location of each new position. This information will then be reviewed by Personnel to determine which positions will require housing. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you. Item 4, returns to oral questions. The honourable Member for Baffin Central, Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a return to an oral question asked by Mr. Dent on February 28, 1994 regarding legislative changes re family law review.

Both the departments of Social Services and Justice have recently circulated discussion papers on the recommendations made in the family law review report. This report proposed sweeping changes to family law and child welfare, and the discussion papers set out suggestions for comprehensive legislative and policy changes.

My colleague and I recognize the tremendous amount of work that will be involved in responding to the report. However, we also place a high priority on the changes that are needed. Therefore, we have agreed on a plan of action that will commit the resources needed to do the job.

Madam Speaker, the legislative changes needed for family law reform will be brought before this House in the winter session of 1995. We feel it is important to bring forward the entire package of legislation at one time to give the public and the legislature the full scope of the proposed reforms. Given the volume of work involved in drafting three major pieces of legislation, we do not feel we could do it justice in a short time frame. Thank you.

Thank you. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Natilikmiot, Mr. Ningark.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is directed to the honourable Minister of Social Services. When I travelled to my area I met with people who receive social assistance from the system. There are a number of cases whereby the social assistance recipient goes shopping in one store and the store charges GST, but in another store they don't charge GST. In the area of social services my question to the honourable Minister, Madam Speaker, is that, is there a policy within the Department of Social Services that the recipient of social assistance does not pay GST when they go shopping? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister of Social Services, Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I will have to take his question under notice. Thank you.

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Iqaluit, Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I'm not sure if I was paying close attention, but I didn't hear the Premier talk about the Minister of Housing being absent from the House. I would like to ask the Premier, will the Minister of Housing be available this week? Thank you.

Thank you. Madam Premier.

Madam Speaker, the issue of Mr. Morin's absence was brought up, and I believe that it may be that the honourable Member was away. As well, a letter was distributed saying that he is attending a housing meeting, again, and being very hopeful that that will perhaps have more positive results than in the past. He will be back a little later this week. Thank you.

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. Item 6, written questions. Item 7, returns to written questions. Mr. Clerk.

Madam Speaker, Return to Written Question 5-12(5) which is a provisional return to a question asked by Mr. Gargan to the Minister of Personnel on the status of Government of the Northwest Territories leased units.

Mr. Gargan's written request for information on leased housing units has proven to be more difficult to prepare than expected. To provide a factual response, my staff were required to obtain assistance from the Department of Public Works and Services staff at both regional and headquarters locations.

While I had hoped to present a response today, I will be unable to do so until Wednesday, March 16, 1994.

Return to Written Question 8-12(5) asked by Mr. Ng to the Premier concerning the purpose of Madam Premier's trips.

The following is in response to the Member's question relating to trips taken to Alaska and to Yakutia, Russia:

The trip from Inuvik to Barrow, Alaska, September 20 to 22, 1993, was to assist a delegation in promoting business opportunities between the NWT and Alaska.

The delegation included:

- Pat Lyall, Ike Haulli, Peter Raddi, Fred Hunt, Paul Quassa, Russel Newmark, Eddy Dillon, David Connelly, Frank Hansen and Roger Gruben, representing the board of directors of Norterra Inc;

- Ken Stevenson, David Burnett, Paul Prevelle, Gunner Anderson and Ramont Gillenus of Norterra Inc;

- Knute Hansen and Kathy Cockney of IRC;

- the mayor and deputy mayor of Inuvik;

- Charlie Furlong, Bob Simpson, Larry Firth and Wanda MacDonald of the Gwich'in Tribal Council; and,

- the Delta Drummers.

The government's share of the cost for a chartered aircraft was $611.41. In addition, a total of $452.55 was spent on accommodation, meals and incidentals.

The trip to Yakutia, September 24 to 28, 1993, was in response to an invitation to participate in the official opening of the new village that was designed and constructed by the NWT firm of Ferguson Simek Clark. The Government of the Northwest Territories played an instrumental and ongoing role in facilitating the project that resulted in over $11 million in benefits flowing to northern firms and business during the construction phase of the village with prospects for additional contracts being a distinct possibility.

Travel to the official opening by charter aircraft (Adlair Aviation of Cambridge Bay) was arranged by Ferguson Simek Clark. Passengers on the charter included Joe Auge of Ferguson Simek Clark; Scott Hunt of Clark Bowler; Rick Volivar of Ryfan Electric; Larry Elkin, who was president of the NWT Housing Corporation at the time; Walter Slipchenko, a consultant specializing in relationships with the former Soviet Union and Russian states.

The government share of the charter cost was $15,926.93 for two seats. Per diem expenses related to the trip totalled $607.01. In addition, there was a cost to government of $2,789.08 for gifts purchased in the NWT for presentation at the opening ceremonies.

Thank you. Item 8, replies to opening address. Item 9, petitions. Item 10, reports of standing and special committees. Item 11, reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 12, tabling of documents. The honourable Member for Sahtu, Mr. Kakfwi.

Thank you. Item 12, tabling of documents. The honourable Member for Baffin Central, Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I wish to table the following document, Tabled Document 36-12(5), Annual Report of the Superintendent of Child Welfare, 1992-1993.

Thank you. Item 12, tabling of documents. Item 13, notices of motion. Item 14, notices of motions for first reading of bills. The honourable Member for Sahtu, Mr. Kakfwi.

The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to return to notices of motion. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed, Mr. Kakfwi.

Thank you. Item 13, notices of motion. Item 14, notices of motions for first reading of bills. The honourable Member for Sahtu, Mr. Kakfwi.

Thank you. Item 14, notices of motions for first reading of bills. Item 15, motions. Item 16, first reading of bills. Item 17, second reading of bills. Item 18, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters: Bill 1, Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95; Bill 8, An Act to Amend the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act; Committee Report 2-12(5), Review of the 1994-95 Main Estimates; Minister's Statement 5-12(5), Session Business; Tabled Document 1-12(5), Towards an NWT Mineral Strategy; Tabled Document 2-12(5), Building and Learning Strategy; and, Tabled Document 11-12(5), First Annual Report of the Languages Commissioner of the NWT for the Year 1992-93, with Mr. Lewis in the chair.

The committee will now come to order. What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Dent.

That is Mr. Dent's proposal. Are we all agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Okay, if we can, we will turn to our legislative agenda with Bill 8. I believe it is Mr. Pollard's bill so I wonder, Mr. Pollard, if you would like to introduce the bill for us?

Introductory Remarks

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon. Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a few brief remarks concerning Bill 8, which would amend the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act. The bill before you, Mr. Chairman, simply amends the act to require that indemnities paid to Members for the fiscal year 1994-95 will not be adjusted to accord with changes in the consumer price index.

My responsibility, Mr. Chairman, for this amendment is to introduce the bill in the House and carry it through on behalf of the Management and Services Board. The Management and Services Board approved the principle of freezing all indemnities for the next fiscal year only and recommended it to Caucus. Caucus considered the matter and, with the consensus of the Members in agreement with the principle, the bill was introduced.

The initiative, Mr. Chairman, of not proceeding with an increase equivalent to the consumer price index is not new to this Assembly. The Members have done this on two occasions, once in the fiscal year 1992-93 when there was a zero increase and once when the federal and territorial governments implemented the six and five per cent in the 1980s.

Mr. Chairman, this bill does not affect the annual increase to Members' living allowances and constituency allowances, which will be increased by 1.8 per cent effective April 1, 1994. The Management and Services Board and Cabinet fully support this amendment and trust all Members will be equally supportive. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Pollard, for your introductory remarks to the bill. Is there a committee chairman who would like to report on this bill? Mr. Ng.

Standing Committee On Finance Comments

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On behalf of the Standing Committee on Finance, we reviewed Bill 8, An Act to Amend the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act, on February 28 and on March 2, 1994. Committee Members discussed this bill at some length and agreed that it should be moved into committee of the whole for further discussion and action. Individual committee Members may take this opportunity here in committee of the whole to raise any remaining concerns regarding this bill. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Mr. Ng. Mr. Pollard, do you have any witnesses who can help you deal with this bill in front of our committee?

Yes, Mr. Chairman. I would like to bring in witnesses if I might, Mr. Hamilton and Mr. Aitken. Thank you.

Do Members have any objections to the Minister bringing in his witnesses? Are we agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Okay, Mr. Minister. Sergeant-at-Arms, would you make sure the witnesses are comfortable at the table? You've identified your witnesses for us, Mr. Pollard. If there are Members who have questions, you may ask them now. Mr. Zoe.

General Comments

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to begin my comments by expressing my concern that although this issue undoubtedly will have some impact, perhaps a small impact, but nonetheless some impact on collective bargaining that will soon be going on with the public servants of the Government of the Northwest Territories, I believe strongly in the collective bargaining process and I think it would be unwise if not irresponsible of elected persons to now begin discussing that independent process in public in this legislature. I want to say at the outset that I am not going to play into the hands of one party or the other by speaking about the collective bargaining process in this legislature even during this debate. I think we should let the collective bargaining process take its own course.

There are some who have advocated fishbowl negotiating going on. I believe that most people who respect the collective bargaining process would agree, even strong labour leaders, that interference from politicians is not welcome nor is it at all helpful. So we should let that process take its course .

I would also like to say, Mr. Chairman, in responding to another part of Mr. Zoe's comments, that I am a Member of the Management and Services Board, I don't pretend to speak for that board today, but the board has been criticized for the method in which it consulted MLAs about recommending this legislation. I am sure, Mr. Chairman, that we can learn from this experience and, in future, the Management and Services Board can find better ways of consulting with MLAs and giving them notice of legislation that will affect their own benefits and also will have other implications.

The fact remains, as Mr. Zoe said, the matter was taken to Caucus. Caucus could have deferred or chosen to further study the bill and it was instead recommended for passage, partly with the new fiscal year in mind. So that happened. The process may not have been perfect, but we now have to deal with the bill today. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Chairman, can I get a copy of section 23(1), 25(1), 26(2), 27(1) and 28(1)? Can I get a copy of those sections?

Maybe the Clerk could make those sections available to Members. Do you want to carry on, Mr. Gargan, while we arrange to get those sections or would you rather wait? Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Chairman, Members are requesting that we get copies before we debate.

Okay. I would like to call a break for a few minutes and we'll come back with those sections.

---SHORT RECESS

I'll call this committee back to order. At the break, Mr. Gargan, you had the floor. We now have copies of all the sections the Member requested, 23(1), 25(1), 26(2), 27(1) and 28(1). Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The reason for my request was to see what sections of this act we are looking at, those sections referred to that put a freeze on salaries and indemnities. Mr. Chairman, these are the sections that deal with ordinary Members, as opposed to Ministers, right?

Mr. Pollard, would you like to answer that question, please?

Mr. Chairman, the act freezes the indemnities to ordinary Members and the basic salary that Ministers receive as MLAs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Pollard. Mr. Gargan.

Which section concerns the Ministers' salaries?

Mr. Pollard.

Mr. Chairman, you would refer to 24(1). Section A is with regard to the Government Leader, section A1 refers to Ministers, A2 to the Speaker, and 1B refers to the Deputy Speaker, et cetera. Thank you.

Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Chairman, it refers to 23(1), but it doesn't say anything about 24(1). It skips 24(1) and then goes to 25(1).

Mr. Pollard.

Mr. Chairman, a couple of years ago, the Ministers took a reduction in their basic ministerial pay. At the same time, when legislation was changed with regards to COLA, the Ministers' portion of this particular act was not subject to the 1.8 per cent increase. It is in there at a flat rate. It does not automatically change and that's why it is not affected, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Mr. Gargan.

What is the flat rate then? Nothing?

Mr. Pollard.

Mr. Chairman, could I seek clarification? The flat rate with regard to ministerial salaries?

Mr. Gargan, would you clarify what you mean by flat rate?

When the Minister refers to flat rate, are we looking at zero per cent?

Mr. Pollard.

Mr. Chairman, the Ministers receive pay for being MLAs and they receive pay for being Ministers. Under the present act, the pay for all MLAs, including Ministers, is covered at the rate of 1.8 per cent increase. The monies that Ministers receive for being Ministers is not covered under that increase. It does not automatically increase each year. There is a zero increase per legislation with Ministers' salaries. If Ministers' salaries were going to be raised, then the legislation would have to be changed and brought to this House, Mr. Chairman. It does not go up automatically. Thank you.

Is that clear, Mr. Gargan?

Yes. So, by accepting this, we are in fact freezing everything and we're not going to get the 1.8 per cent increase, right?

Mr. Pollard.

Mr. Chairman, that's correct. It covers the basic indemnity, the chairpersons, committee indemnities and constituency. All of these would receive no increases in this particular fiscal year, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Pollard. Mr. Gargan.

But that does not include the Executive, the Ministers?

Mr. Pollard.

Mr. Chairman, it is not included in the piece of legislation we have before us because it was not going to go up anyway. The Ministers' salaries remain the same as well. There are no increases in Ministers' salaries. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The 1.8 per cent did not apply to Ministers' salaries anyway. Mr. Gargan.

So, it wouldn't hurt then, to make section 24(1) part of this bill then?

Would that have any effect, Mr. Pollard, to include it?

Mr. Chairman, it would be redundant, simply because the 1.8 per cent increase did not apply to 24(1) anyway. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It's outside the legislation anyway. So, are you finished, Mr. Gargan?

Mr. Chairman, I guess most Members got a letter about some of the deductions that are going to affect the Members and staff. The Canada Pension plan for Members was raised by 2.6 per cent. The unemployment insurance premium for staff and Members was raised by 3.7 per cent. The superannuation doesn't affect us but we are getting increases in what we pay. I just wanted to say that for the record.

Last Friday, while I was watching the news, there was a report done for Parliament about MP salaries. The timing is all wrong but in the report, there was a request to increase MP salaries by up to 37 per cent because of the time they spend away from home. I wanted to let you know that. And they want to reduce the pension and double dipping. There is a lot of stuff happening at the local level about this.

For the record, I would like to say that Members up here spend a lot of time away from home. I've been a Member now for ten years, Mr. Chairman, and on the average, I've been away from home for six of those ten years. I'm not complaining about the salaries we get, but we're going to freeze everything while other jurisdictions are not doing that. I think the Ministers have taken a $5,000 cut in their salaries but no other jurisdictions have done that. We are trying to set an example, but I don't think that at the national level MPs care one way or the other what we do up here, but I think it is at our expense and at our families' expense. We have to make sacrifices as well as our families have to make sacrifices. It is not fair, you know. But, because we are pressured by the public, we sort of put ourselves in a situation where whatever we do is noble and right and where we do the public justice. But, what are we doing to ourselves as Members? Are we denying our families by doing what we are doing? It certainly sounds noble if you look at it from the public hearing you say that, but what are our families saying? We have mortgages, finances, loans that we have to pay off, and students that are going off to universities and colleges. Those all cost money, you know. Mr. Chairman, I am in a situation right now where I have to support my own children away from home. This doesn't help me one bit. Perhaps other Members have younger families that they really don't have to concern themselves about at this point in time. I want to tell the Members that putting on a freeze does have an effect on me as a Member. It does have an effect on my family, but I could live with it. I just have to tighten up my belt and live within my means, I guess.

---Laughter

But I thought I would make that point, Mr. Chairman, because I have a very difficult time doing what we are doing and thinking that maybe it is right for the public, but I certainly don't agree that it is right for me or my family. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Gargan. To this bill, which removes the 1.8 per cent cost of living increase from all MLAs' indemnities. That is really what the bill is. Before I recognize anybody else, do you have any response, Mr. Pollard, to Mr. Gargan's general comments?

No, Mr. Chairman. If I might, though, I would like to respond to Mr. Zoe. Mr. Zoe gave the impression that the Executive Council was driving this particular bill. I am the only Executive Council Member who sits on the Management and Services Board, and, certainly, we weren't driving it. This is coming from MSB, Mr. Chairman. Believe me, if I had been driving this bill, Mr. Chairman, there would have been a ten per cent roll-back in everybody's salary, not just a request to give up the 1.8 per cent increase this year. Madam Premier and I had discussed that and we didn't think that was attainable. So, if we had been driving it, it would have been a roll-back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Pollard. Mr. Arvaluk.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a couple of quick questions. According to Mr. Gargan, there were some other freezes that, according to Mr. Zoe, still come up to only $27,000 savings to the government. Is that with all the travel and everything else that will be frozen? Is that $27,000 the right amount?

Mr. Pollard, could you verify whether that figure is accurate or not with regard to the effect of this bill?

Mr. Chairman, there is certainty in $24,259.68 on those items that we can guarantee. For instance, we know how many MLAs there are and we know how much the basic indemnity is and so forth. What we can't predict is the amount of sitting days of committees and where those committees will sit, et cetera, so we would guesstimate some $50,000 overall, Mr. Chairman. The only certainty I can give you is the first number until we find out how many days committees will sit. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Arvaluk.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With that very small amount, I hope we are not seen by the public as hypocritical in trying to show the public that we are instituting

a freeze and making a big saving. I don't think that is the case. However, in the spirit of the thought, my question to the Minister is, are we doing this for the purpose of showing the union that we are serious about this and that we'll do the same thing if they will freeze their salaries, too, by the fall?

Mr. Pollard.

Mr. Chairman, I think there is the general perception across Canada that politicians are fat cats who live well. I think we must look at the amount of unemployed people across Canada who say, I could handle an $85,000, $100,000 or $50,000 a year job. We have seen this crusade across Canada towards politicians and the increases that we can vote ourselves. I think that there is some justification on behalf of people. In some jurisdictions, MLAs and MPs are well paid and taken care of well.

I admit that we work long hours and we spend a lot of time away from our families. I admit that we have odd hours and travel at a moment's notice, et cetera, but when you use that kind of argument, Mr. Chairman, the people on the street say you didn't have to run in the election anyway. You knew what you were doing when you signed on. I think there is not an MLA in this House or in any House across Canada who did not phone, first of all, to the Clerk or to the Legislative Assembly and say, what kind of a deal am I getting myself into? What are the conflicts of interest? What salaries are there? How do I get reimbursed, et cetera? So, I think it may not appear to be a lot of money, Mr. Chairman, but I think there is a message from constituents to elected Members that they don't want to see any more. It may appear to be a small dollar amount but, certainly, the intent is there. We are not going beyond what is there at the present time. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Pollard. Mr. Arvaluk.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I understand that the spirit or the intent is to show the union that we would like them to do the same thing by fall. If that is the case, then why not just direct MSB -- if bargaining is successful in a zero freeze -- to move that the MLAs' salaries will be frozen along the same line as what is attained at the collective bargaining in the fall?