Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Any other comments under law enforcement? Mr. Ballantyne.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a few general comments to make about the department. In my observations over the past couple of years, I think I'm pretty satisfied with the work the Minister and the department have done. They've taken on new challenges. Taking over corrections, in itself, is a big challenge. I think they've absorbed that very professionally. As the Minister has stated, in a time of escalating crime, diminishing dollars and competing demands on the system, every year it becomes more difficult to provide the same level of service. I think, keeping all that in mind, the Minister and the department have done a competent job in dealing the many problems they have to deal with.

I have a few comments to make. One is about the sort of thing that causes crime and some ideas of how we, as a government and as a society, have to deal with crime with less dollars. I've travelled around the world and have spent years in many countries. Each culture likes to think of itself as different and better than others, but the reality is, everyone is very, very similar in certain areas. There is probably about the same percentage of people in each culture who are very good and very bad and most people fall somewhere in the middle. That doesn't change wherever you go around the world.

I think we have to recognize that there are increasing pressures now, not just here but everywhere in the world, on society. There is violence on television, more people competing for fewer jobs, less security, it is the age of mass communication and what have you. Here, it is compounded with cultural clashes with one culture being forced to abide by the rules that have been imposed upon them by another culture, and there is high unemployment. All those things have played a part. But, I think we also have to recognize that individuals have to take some responsibility for their actions in this society, as in all societies.

So, when I look at how one would categorize different degrees of crime, it seems to me that the justice system as we know it in Canada is, in many ways, pretty archaic. Society has changed much faster than the justice system has been able to adapt to that society. I like the emphasis of the department on a community-based justice system and I think the philosophy is right. As the Minister has found out, unfortunately, all the different components of the justice system move very slowly to achieve that end. By the time you get to the place you should have been four years ago, you are still four years behind because everything has changed that quickly in the meantime.

I think there has to be a greater realization by everybody in the justice system that communities have to play a much more important role, that parents have to play a much more important role and that you can't depend on the justice system to redress all the ills there are in the world. It just won't work. The system was never structured to do that.

Who makes up the population of our correctional institutions? From what I understand, the profile of the young offender has changed over the last ten years. The young offender now is probably a little more violent than the young offender was five years ago. The crimes are a little more serious. The use of drugs is maybe a little more prevalent than it was before. There was a time when we could say that 95 per cent, or whatever, of crimes were directly alcohol related but I think people are seeing much more serious manifestations now of problems in our system. We all know that the system is having a heck of a time trying to keep up with all of this.

It would seem to me, though, at a time when you have less money and you have to priorize, the first and obvious thing, to me, anyhow, is who do you try to salvage out of all of this? I mean, if you only have so many dollars, obviously you concentrate any new resources you have on young people. You can't afford any more. Let's not kid ourselves, the time is coming when we won't be able to spend the same amount of dollars across the board as we do now. So, if we have to -- hard though this may be to priorize -- number one, we spend any new dollars on young people. Intervene early, intervene aggressively with young people. So, to me, that is the first, obvious priority that one has to make.

I think the second reality one has to make is that...Again, back to the idea that individuals do have some responsibility and that our jails right now are filled with a lot of fairly non-violent type offenders. Canada and the United States are two of the few countries left in the western world that fill their jails with non-violent offenders, and though a lot of this is out of our responsibility because the Criminal Code is a federal responsibility, more and more I think we have to look at alternate ways of dealing with non-violent offenders. They should not be in jails. It makes no sense to me whatsoever to have non-violent offenders in jails. What happens is that you bring young non-violent offenders into jails for B&Es, for instance, they come into contact with more hardened types and then you end up creating criminals. That makes no sense.

The third thing, at least from my point of view, is that, somewhere along the line, society is going to have to recognize repeat violent offenders. There are some people who cannot be rehabilitated in every race and culture in the world. I think society -- again, this is my view -- has to look at it from a total perspective. You do whatever you can to help young people to keep them out of the life, but if somebody has repeated and is hurting people, especially young people...I mean, if you look at a repeated violent offender, it is one category. Repeated violent sexual offender is a worse category, and the repeated violent sexual offender against children is the worst category. I think that with the third category, there is no way. I mean, society has an absolute responsibility to keep them right off the streets. I don't care how. There comes a point where you give up your rights, and the rights of potential victims are much, much more than the rights of a repeated child sexual offender, for instance.

Somehow we get everything all mixed up. Somehow we seem to live, and, at least in my opinion, back in the semi-idealistic state of the 1960s where everybody is basically really good and it is just a matter of unlocking the key to their sugar and sweetness. The reality is that some people aren't good, some people are awful and some people have to be put away for good.

I think we need a balanced approach that says we rehabilitate when we can and we do everything we can for young people. As somebody repeats and moves through the system, we are not going to have as many resources any more, and essentially we are warehousing. The third and most drastic case is that we are putting them away for good. What we are saying is they are out of the way.

So, from my point of view, that is an overall perspective, for whatever it is worth. I would really like to see us concentrate in those areas, and, in those areas that aren't under our control, for the Minister to bring them to the attention of the federal Minister in federal/provincial meetings. I know there is a lot of sympathy for parts of it, but very few people put that whole package together. It is almost like, on one side you are totally for rehabilitation or, on the other side, hang them all. It is not that. It has got to be a balance based on some reality and based on some philosophy.

So I don't think I have a lot more to say right now. I think the department is on the right track. I would like to hear the Minister articulate perhaps a little bit more clearly how different components of the system fit together, and I think that MLAs here generally see what the department is trying to do. I think we do understand the difficulties that the department is facing in the 1990s and wish you all the best of luck in dealing with these problems. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Any response, Mr. Kakfwi?

Thank you very much, Mr. Kakfwi. Are you finished, Mr. Ballantyne? Mr. Ningark.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, from the opening remarks of the Minister, I agree with town control to a degree. I am a proponent of the safe society. I like my community to be safe for my family and my friends. I would like all the communities in the territories to be safe. Basically, we are dealing with human life here, which is very important. Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, I think Mr. Ludy Pudluk, Mr. Pudlat and perhaps Mr. Minister and Mr. Whitford, started handling the stock of a firearm when it was too large for us to really suit it. We were brought up in a society whereby you learn how to handle a firearm when we were really, really young. In fact, I think most of us shot birds when we were only about eight or nine years old. Given the behaviour of the younger generation, we have to be very cautious but at the same time still respect the tradition that people live by, which is hunting.

In my community of Pelly Bay, on two occasions a polar bear came in right between the houses and luckily there was not much restriction in terms of having to lock firearms in the house. People in the community were able to act quickly, they didn't have to look for keys, they didn't have to open a padlock in order to get hold of a rifle. As a result, the polar bears, on two occasions, were disposed of before they did any harm to anybody in that community.

I think innocent people are paying the price which is induced by the people who abuse the use of a firearm. I hope that the system will be more sensitive to the needs of the native people who use a firearm for hunting and safety aspects, Mr. Chairman.

Animals such as polar bears know no boundaries. They will wander into a community instinctively in search of food. Sometimes they can be very, very dangerous. I think that putting more restrictions on the use of firearms is, in fact, going to put the lives of human beings in danger in some communities where they are frequented by animals such as polar bears. I agree with the Honourable Minister that we should try and prevent the firearms from getting into the wrong hands. I agree with that one hundred per cent, especially in the wrong situation, but I think we should really try to be sensitive to people who use their guns only for the purpose of hunting.

In most native communities, we don't have any sport hunting except from the people coming in from the outside. I would urge the honourable Minister, Mr. Chairman, and my colleagues to try to be a little more sensitive to the needs of the people in our jurisdiction, especially Dene in the western Arctic living in small communities, and Inuit people in the eastern Arctic living in small communities, who may be endangered by animals such as black bears, grizzlies, polar bears, and wolves. In the event that such animals wander into the community and all the firearms are locked up, a person may not be able to find the key or open the padlock as quickly as required. That might put the safety of the population of a community into severe danger. Mr. Chairman, I hope Mr. Minister will consider that very seriously.

In the other area of having to go for training or be tested in order to renew your firearm, I think just about every member in a small community, especially in the native population, has gone through the system already knowing how to handle rifles. What if the person is not able to pass the test required by the system but is able to handle rifles, has been handling rifles all his or her life as part of their hunting equipment? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Ningark. Mr. Kakfwi.

Thank you very much, Mr. Kakfwi. Have you finished, Mr. Ningark? Okay, I have two other people on my list. Mr. Patterson and Mr. Pudluk. Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Am I butting in before the Dean of the Assembly? I wouldn't want to do that. I think Mr. Pudluk might have had his hand up before me.

Do you wish to defer to Mr. Pudluk?

Yes.

Mr. Pudluk.

You don't really have to treat me like that.

---Laughter

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Patterson. I have a short comment to make with regard to the Department of Justice and with regard to firearms. I have already stated my position with regard to firearms. The concern I have is along the same line as my colleague from Natilikmiot. I agree with him and I am in support of his comment. I was happy to hear the responses that were given by Mr. Minister.

I would like to mention something about youth being dealt with in the courts. Right now, the communities are getting more involved in the court system. I can use Baffin as an example because I'm familiar with the Baffin region. One of the things I have noticed is that the Inuit young people's criminal concerns are dealt with in the communities. I am very much in favour of this because it seems to be working very nicely. It seems to be very helpful. If a young offender had gone through the court system, they would go through more of a rough time if they had to spend some time in the correctional institute here or in the Baffin region. It is much better for the young offender to be dealt with by the youth justice committees in the communities.

I would like to congratulate the Department of Justice for decentralizing the court system and having the communities more involved with the court system. I think they are looking at ways whereby young offenders can be taken out on the land as punishment, or they can be given these types of courses. I think it is much to the benefit of some young offenders in our communities.

With regard to the elders who are involved with the youth criminal system, even though they are not given a wage for the job they are doing, they want to be more involved because they understand the problems and they feel they can contribute. They have also gone through the same problems themselves when they were young. It is because of this that the elderly who are volunteering today are more willing to help the youth in trouble.

As the people were getting into the...(inaudible)...there was a lot of...(inaudible)...between whether they should follow a southern life-style or...(inaudible)...that is when the communities were coming to a group of people in a new community. When we were younger, we had different ways of being disciplined. I am talking about myself as a younger person in the early 1960s. They had different ways of dealing with youth back then. Today it seems like the old people and the young people have a better understanding with one another. Because of this, the older people are taken more seriously and want to be more involved with the youth who are in trouble. I think if the older people in the communities are involved with youth, it can have a more beneficial result than a southern way of correcting and disciplining youth who are in trouble today. That is all I have to say, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Mr. Kakfwi.

I have a problem because next on my list, after Mr. Patterson, would be Mr. Pudlat, not Mr. Pudluk. He, in fact, hadn't been on my list and you gave up your position. So I have to recognize Mr. Pudlat.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I also wanted to thank the Minister because I have worked with him closely on these different issues and I visit him in his office concerning justice issues. I would like to extend my gratitude to the Minister because he is a very welcoming person when it comes to talking about justice issues. He sits down and tries to find ideas. I really appreciate that.

Concerning the firearms issue, I just wanted to make a short comment. If the amendment to the Criminal Code was not so binding...I agree it is more suitable for urban enforcement. But not for hunters who have to travel on the land and be prepared for encounters with wildlife at unexpected times, especially in the spring and summer, sometimes in the winter also where there are outpost camps. As an example, there have been polar bears approaching outpost camps. Like John Ningark said, there is no border or no stopping an aggressive polar bear. This places a problem if we are going to have to safe-keep our firearms because encounters do occur. While I realize the danger of keeping firearms available around children, we are aware now of the training requirement which is mandatory.

I remember when we were children, our parents would accompany us and they taught us how to use firearms, rifles, et cetera, properly. I realize we have to enforce some safety standards to avoid unnecessary deaths. But people who make a living as hunters are going to have a difficult time enforcing or abiding by the requirement of safe-keeping and locking up firearms. I have spoken about this at length with many of the hunters. This is something that I will fully support, especially because of our encounters with wildlife that happens at any time. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

That was a general comment. You wanted to give a response, Mr. Kakfwi?

Thank you. Mr. Pudlat

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That was a good response. I understand the course is intended to ensure people are able to properly handle rifles and handguns. I'm sure that's the intention of making the course mandatory. For example, though, if a person is able to properly handle a rifle and he's a good hunter, if the course becomes mandatory he's going to obviously need to be well educated to be able to take the course even if he's already able to safely handle a rifle. I'm sure this will change procedures and manners in which to obtain a firearms acquisition certificate. All these problems are going to occur if the course becomes mandatory. You have to be very educated and very knowledgeable about other things that don't seem to relate too much to properly handling rifles and like you mentioned, whether it will be in Inuktitut is still not definite. If this course becomes mandatory we are going to have to push to have it provided in the aboriginal languages because we are going to continue to use our rifles, this is a part of our way of life up here. I'm not happy with the idea of having to take a course, because you have to be educated to take it in the first place. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Pudlat. Mr. Kakfwi.