This is page numbers 689 - 717 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 5th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was community.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. Minister Kakfwi.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you. There is a lot of information that communities are subjected to. I go on the assumption that the community justice specialists that we have are doing their work. Perhaps there is some explanation for this. We will make a commitment to make sure that people are informed and there are appropriate meetings that take place. It is my hope that some of the communities will make policing a high priority. Throughout the north we have extensive work being done on claims negotiations and implementation. Many organizations and leaders are finding that they have to realign their priorities. It is my view that there would still be communities that would make this work a priority. If Rae-Edzo is one of them, then I would be more than happy to try to work with them. Thank you.

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Minister. General comments. Next on my list, I have Mr. Pudlat.

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Kenoayoak Pudlat Baffin South

(Translation) I will be speaking in my own language, Mr. Chairman, thank you.

---Laughter

Yesterday during question period, I asked about firearms issues and the pending mandatory course. I want to talk a little about that again because I seemed to understand yesterday that the instructions for mandatory courses will not be made up in the aboriginal languages. That was the understanding I had yesterday, Mr. Chairman.

There are many official aboriginal languages and there is also the Federal Official Languages Act. In the territories, we have eight official aboriginal languages, and I wanted to talk a little bit more about that. I want to remind the Minister about our Official Languages Act. I understand he will be meeting fairly soon again with the Minister to talk about this issue. I have a concern that the teaching materials will not be provided in the aboriginal languages and this could pose an enormous problem, especially in light of the fact that the majority of the people up here are unilingual.

Whenever they propose national laws, it should be remembered that funding should also be considered to ensure that enforcement of these laws is being provided in languages that are understood up here. This firearms legislation will surely pose a problem. This is not going to be a simple task, as we are all aware, especially if they start implementing the training courses. Firearms safety has been an issue for a long time but this is something I'm very concerned about. People will continue to hunt and people will continue to be concerned about safety with rifles.

I don't believe there is going to be funding set aside to provide these courses in the aboriginal languages, even if it is a national law and it is mandatory. I don't think the course is going to be translated into Inuktitut. This is more a comment than a question. As I understand it, the Minister will be having meetings again concerning this issue in the near future. I hope he will reiterate this problem and the difficulties that are encountered, not just in enforcing this new law, but also whenever they make new mandatory legislation it must be remembered that official languages are important to us up here. I wanted the Minister to know about my concerns regarding the training courses, which possibly might not be provided in the aboriginal languages.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. That was more or less a point the honourable Member wished to make. Of course, if the honourable Minister wants to respond, it is his discretion.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you. The comments that Members like Mr. Pudlat are making will be shared with the federal Minister next week. We'll be taking clips from the Hansard to demonstrate to him the extent to which this particular issue is causing concern. There is absolutely no doubt that the hunters and trappers, for instance in my constituency, who are unilingual are being discriminated against. Because they are unilingual, they will not be able to acquire a firearms acquisition certificate. They don't qualify to take this course at this time. There is no initiative right now to translate this course into Inuktitut or any other aboriginal language, or to train any instructors to teach this course in an aboriginal language.

The very people who need firearms the most, in many cases are the ones who are being discriminated against the most, inadvertently as a result of the nature of the course. This will be shared with the federal Minister next week. We should point out as well, I think, that all Members know about the many things that northern hunters and trappers have to contend with in harvesting and in making use of their firearms. The land we have to travel on is often very hazardous and often equipment is lost on ice floes or by breaking through ice, by boats overturning and often things like ski-doos, outboard motors, camping equipment and hunting gear, including entire sets of rifles, are lost.

In cases like this, people who depend on rifles on a daily basis will not be able to acquire firearms and would have to find some other way to get access to firearms, which brings up the whole issue of illegal trade and sale of firearms. They can borrow, but that is difficult for people to do since people usually have their own equipment and it is not a common practice any more than borrowing each other's socks.

---Laughter

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
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The Chair John Ningark

Qujannamiik. I have Mr. Lewis and Mr. Arvaluk. Mr. Lewis.

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Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was very pleased, Mr. Chairman, to hear from Mr. Kakfwi last night when he indicated that there certainly has to be an emphasis on the needs of young people. I don't need to go into all the reasons for that because they have been very well stated. It is largely to do with the speed of change and the speed with which things are happening around us that put young people at tremendous risk. All of us have had the pleasure of raising children and it is becoming more and more difficult every day. You can see the tremendous risks that young people are facing in a rapidly-changing society.

We only have to consider this city, which I remember as being a very quiet place where nothing much ever happened. Suddenly, it has become a city and, although it's not very big -- there are only about 16,000 people -- it has the same range of problems that you would find in Winnipeg, for example, which has over half a million people. There is every conceivable crime reported in the press in this city. The idea of people going around with guns and holding up convenience stores was unheard of. Even when I came to Yellowknife and it wasn't that long ago, in 1974, from the east, you never bothered to lock your doors. You just didn't worry about such things. You had safe neighbourhoods and all of that has changed. I am afraid that it has put tremendous pressure on the problems of law enforcement and making sure that the justice system works in a proper fashion.

I know that over the years we have had delegations of young people who complain that it is very difficult to lead the kind of life that their parents would like to see them lead in a place like Yellowknife simply because of the things they see going on around them. They have very few alternatives unless they are inventive enough to come up with some ideas of their own as to how they could be spending their time. As a result, people spend their time in arcades or hang around the bars because there are things that drag them away from the things that parents would prefer to see them do. I know that many of the people who visit on school trips from the south, young people from places not that different from Yellowknife in size in southern Canada, are absolutely astounded to see the way of life that some of our young people lead here. It seems to be like one long party for some people. I have heard that comment several times.

We have heard references to youth gangs that was unknown ten years ago, the idea of young people going around just simply looking for trouble, yet that is happening now. I note there an increasing number of young people who can no longer be handled by the school system so they are looking for alternative methods and schools. Parents have even given up completely and decide to have their children taught at home because that is the only way they can keep them at their studies. I could go on at length. I have raised a family of my own over the last 30 years in the Northwest Territories. I think that it is more luck than anything else when you see all the things that go on around you that they have been able to come through unscathed for the most part.

There is a particular problem for young boys, I find. Young women can exchange in interesting, adventurous activity without putting themselves in conflict with the law. But young men, for some reason, always seem to choose those things which involve risk which could put them in very real conflict with the law. This natural inclination of young boys to look for adventure, very often puts them in a position where they bring tremendous grief to their parents. Many of my personal friends have gone through this and it is so common now that it is part of the life we live everyday and we try to find ways of coping with it.

I have one question for the Minister. I am not so sure that setting up new structures all the time is always the answer. I know, until two or three years ago, we had a committee called the youth justice committee, in Yellowknife. To be honest, I was never quite sure exactly what the responsibilities or functions of a youth justice committee really was. I would like to get some indication from the Minister, some insight into the worth and value of such a committee. I know that when it existed, it was active and now that it is no longer there, people see that there is a void. There is something that used to exist that seemed to serve a very useful function. It would be useful for us to have a good understanding of what a youth justice committee does. Now that we don't have one in this city, with all the things that are going on around us many parents say there is a void and something needs to be done to resurrect it. That was my only question.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

The work that youth justice committees do, community justice committees also, is it is recognizing that there are individuals in a community who want to try to divert young people before the formal justice system gets their...

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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An Hon. Member

(Microphone turned off)

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Mr. Pudluk. For the record, there is a point of order raised by Mr. Pudluk.

Point Of Order

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Ludy Pudluk High Arctic

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is a very interesting department and I think we should at least have a quorum here. Thank you.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Pudluk. A lack of a quorum has been brought to my attention. I shall sound the bells and ask people to return. Thank you. We now have a quorum. My apologies, Mr. Minister, you can continue where you left off.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you. In communities wanting to take some responsibility for adult or young

offenders and try to give some support to these people and to try to intervene at an early stage, these committees are initially set up on a volunteer basis. We recognize that, in many cases, in all communities, there is always a group of people who want to volunteer to do something. After some time and commitment to the job, we come in to provide some money to help them. These groups provide a mechanism for the community to make a statement to the courts about these offenders.

For instance, after charges are laid, before a sentencing, a committee could go to the courts and make a presentation about the individuals involved and some overtures about how they feel the court should deal with the offenders. In some cases, they ask to take responsibility for these offenders. In other cases, they intervene even before charges are laid and try to come up with some acceptable arrangement where they would take responsibility. Sometimes charges are laid and then stayed depending on the arrangements made with the RCMP and the courts.

There is intervention sometimes so that in sentencing the courts take that into account. For instance, a justice committee might offer to take custody of a young or adult offender. So, instead of being sent to the Yellowknife Correctional Centre, the offender might be placed in the custody of a youth justice committee, a community justice committee, the chief and council, or an Inuit community that is willing to accept them, and where it is acceptable to everybody involved. That is the way, in very general terms, these committees work.

I don't know if that is sufficient for the Member but, in general terms, that is how these committees operate. Mahsi.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Member for Yellowknife Centre.

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Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate that description of all the responsibilities that could be undertaken by a youth justice committee. It seems to me to be a very worthwhile form of intervention on behalf of young people. What is not clear to me, though is, given the size of the population and the size of the problem we're trying to deal with here, with a population of 16,000 -- and I haven't calculated the number of young people that are potentially at risk -- and with a huge volunteer sector in the community that is actively engaged in all kinds of support for different organizations throughout the city, is there any kind of system at all so that if there was a group that was committed, they could count on some support from government?

I know this is always a problem. Every time you try to solve something, it is always the government that has to come through to provide the funds and so on, even though it's a community initiative to help their own kids. But, it is a reality that people are stretched. Most of the people I know are completely stretched in terms of the amount of time they have, because of the huge demands made on them by the different agencies within the community that don't get support from government and depend upon voluntary help. There must be some system with which you can decide on how you can allocate the very limited resources.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Lewis. Mr. Minister.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

I think the Member is asking a question that is probably at the forefront of many people's minds, what can we do when we're so busy and what kind of support can the government give in that context? The community justice task can provide money for justice committees to operate. We can provide a small honorarium and a small operating budget. If there are specific community justice initiatives being suggested by groups within the city of Yellowknife, we will sit down and try to work out an arrangement for everyone.

The other question the Member raised is an important one. We are so busy, what can we do? In many of our communities, that is the question that many, many people ask. They have a job during the daytime, and they help implement claim settlements in the evenings and during the weekends. They have so many things going on that they wonder what they can do to intervene in the troubled lives of their teenagers or their relatives. It is a tough question. I would say that is the kind of question that youth justice committees and justice committees grapple with.

Are there suggestions they can make to the city of Yellowknife so they can be a positive intervener in the work that needs to be done to reach out to young people who are on the brink of getting into a life of crime and for young offenders who have already committed offences? Is there something civic leaders can do to bring them back to reality and let them know people care, that we want to help, that there are no judgement calls being made on them, and that there is a need to recognize that people deserve respect?

There are aboriginal organizations in the city and there is the business community, and I think they would be great elements to bring into the justice committee work starting up in the city. If the committees know city council would be happy to help with interventions and that the business community would be glad to work hand-in-hand with young offenders who are busting into their businesses and making off with some of their goodies, that would be good. There may be some positive elements in the thinking the Member is suggesting. Thank you.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. The chair recognizes Mr. Arvaluk and then Mr. Allooloo.

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James Arvaluk Aivilik

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't have many questions, but I have a comment I would like to make to the Minister. On page 07-9, under law enforcement, I recognize that the Minister is doing some work on this in the communities. There are police being trained from my community here in Yellowknife under this, and we are involved in community justice and corrections too. I would like to thank the Minister for being able to work with him with regard to these areas. I would like the work to continue in my community.

When the Special Committee on Health and Social Services was in the eastern Arctic, in the Keewatin region, during a public hearing in Repulse Bay they heard that when young people have to wait a long time to be heard in court, they end up committing suicide because they get tired of waiting and are under a lot of stress. I would like the definitive objectives under law enforcement and community justice to continue in my community so that the people who are waiting to be tried and who are under a lot of stress will not commit suicide in the future. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Arvaluk. Mr. Minister.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

In one of the comments raised yesterday, Mr. Pudlat also pointed to the great length of time that people who are charged and who are being brought before the courts have to wait. We didn't specifically discuss, yesterday, the effect that has on young offenders. In many cases, when we talk about young offenders, these are people between 12 and 18. We're primarily looking at young men who are going through tremendous change, physically and emotionally, and people who often feel that nobody really understands them. The stress of having to wait for decisions to be made about their life and the way they seem to be inadvertently forgotten in the ongoing machinery of justice, is probably different for adult offenders as opposed to the youth. I think it's something for us, in the Department of Justice, to look at to see if there isn't something that could be done in recognition of that difference. So that's an excellent comment to bring up.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. I'm sorry, you wanted to say something again?

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Yes, I intended to mention it in the beginning today. I received a letter today from the Alberta correction services division, from Mr. Hank O'Handley, the assistant deputy minister of the Government of Alberta. It is addressed to Ms. Nora Sanders, the assistant deputy minister of the Solicitor General Branch, Department of Justice, Government of the Northwest Territories. "Dear Ms Sanders: With regard to the external review of the young offender program, this should serve to advise that my report will not likely be completed in time for presentation during the winter session of the Legislative Assembly, by your Minister. In this regard, I understand the report must be translated into Inuktitut which will take some time. As well, we need to clarify some of our findings before our final submission is made. I trust this will not create difficulty for the department." This is signed, Mr. Hank O'Handley, the assistant deputy minister of the correction services division.

I just share that because there was a commitment and demand by this legislature to provide this during this session. I had followed the suggestion of the Member for Thebacha, in asking for the services of Mr. O'Handley, knowing that his schedule was very hectic, at best, at that time we sought him. But, he had agreed to do it. He is basically saying that his report may not be ready, so I would like to serve notice to Members. Thank you.