Lawyer support services, total O and M, $2.282 million.

Registries and court services, total O and M, $7.752 million.

Community justice and corrections, total O and M, $19.823 million. Mr. Ng.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

What type of programs do we have in correctional facilities and facilities for young offenders? They are quite wide-ranging and there is no specific set of programs. For instance, in the Hay River Correctional Centre, there is no program space in that facility. Almost all of the programs we

run there are outdoor programs, wood cutting and fishing, for example. In other adult facilities we have things like upgrading, life-skills, guide training, art, carving, et cetera. In all young offender facilities we have classes, either they have their own in-house instructions provided to them or they attend local schools. There are counselling services available to almost all of the facilities in the territories. We have two psychologists who work within corrections. That is kind of sketchy, but off the top of my head, those are the ones I know we have. Of open custody facilities, there are the bush camps and the land-based programs that the Member is aware we operate in some of the communities where local and hunters and trappers take young offenders out on the land and provide an on the land living and experience for them.

It is all internal except we have contractors providing services, as in the open custody facilities. There, we have contractors. Where we have small families or operators providing on the land and open custody facilities, we are now discussing ways to provide some structure to these operations so the trapper or harvester who is operating these facilities may get the support from someone who is knowledgeable in programming, scheduling and those sorts of things, so there is a substantive base of information we can use for monitoring the young offenders out there.

It is fairly elementary. For instance, there is no way for us to tell if we send five young offenders out to the Mackenzie Mountains with an operator that all of them, over a period of time, will make the fire in the morning, gather materials for fire, learn how to make it and do all the different tasks themselves. I know, just from experience, that some of us tend to let other people do the same things over and over and some of us will always be the initiators. Those are the kinds of little things we want to keep track of, plus provide support to the operator so there is some sort of semi-programmable face to put on programs. If there are young offenders out there for a month, when they go in and when they come out, they should know the kinds of things they will be required to do. We should be able to measure their performance. Those are the kinds of things we're looking at.

There's another comment I want to make in the area of programming. We've found, over the years, that we're over capacity all the time, in the Yellowknife Correctional Centre, for instance, where there is a capacity of 130 at this time. The original capacity of the facility was about 50 so the programming space that was eventually built into that facility has long since been taken up for bed space. There is no programming space left in the facilities. That is one of the difficulties we're having. Even though we want to provide programs, we don't have the space. Thank you.

It is difficult to do. One of the fears we have is there are more and more offences being committed by younger and younger members of our communities. They are becoming more frequent and more violent in nature, and the first crop of these young offenders are now in the age of adulthood. Whether the few programs we have to offer are having any impact is almost impossible to say. We don't know that we have the luxury of time to take a measured approach to this. Our view is we have to move as quickly as we can to support community initiatives that would have communities taking responsibility for young and adult offenders. Perhaps their approach and the approaches they come up with will have much better results, and results that are easier to measure than ours could ever have. Thank you.

There is a meeting happening right now, I think it is the second or third series of meetings we've had with community justice specialists since we started this program. They are slowly getting organized, working as a group, and comparing notes and experiences from right across the north. It is my view that they are going to start having more and more of an impact on communities in the next couple of years.

It is almost like a field worker program, except we only have one for each region. The amount of information they have to absorb and be able to retain, as well as the ability to develop an approach to working with communities to come up with projects is quite enormous. They are having a meeting right now in Yellowknife. I haven't had time to check with them again, but we have been giving them a lot of support and encouragement and it is my view that they are going to make a difference. That is who I'm pinning my hopes on. Thank you.