This is page numbers 931 - 964 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 5th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was health.

Topics

Committee Motion 41-12(5): That The Department Of Health Develop A Two-year Action Plan, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 953

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As legislators in this House, we have the responsibility to provide programs and services to everybody in the community. The recommendations that were made by the Auditor General and all these other committees were that the department see how they could better improve the financial administration and well as the delivery of programs. There are a lot of recommendations.

It is clear that people are concerned. The Special Committee on Health and Social Services toured around the north and have seen with their own eyes what is going on out there. As a result, they made recommendations. Likewise, MLAs are aware of the different problems out in the communities.

Yes, we are here to approve the total budget of the Department of Health. That's what we're doing here. With the money we approve, the programs and services will be delivered. It is a financial matter, no matter how you look at it. So, yes, we are looking at all these different recommendations for financial reasons. Thank you.

Committee Motion 41-12(5): That The Department Of Health Develop A Two-year Action Plan, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 953

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Madam Premier, to the motion.

Committee Motion 41-12(5): That The Department Of Health Develop A Two-year Action Plan, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 953

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Mr. Chairman, what is being asked for is an action plan which incorporates questions raised by various, different committees of this Legislature plus the Auditor General to be prepared by May 9. I haven't counted all the recommendations, but I believe there are well over 150 altogether, that I can see. The desire is to respond effectively and not face the same criticism that we have received in trying

to respond to a lot of other recommendations that the government has gone beyond the time frame that we would like to see.

This is an incorporation of all other committees. In previous recommendations, the normal procedure is that the various other committees ask for responses, they receive them and that is done with. But here you want us to incorporate all the various recommendations from the committees and the Auditor General. My concern is if it is possible to do all that, come back on May 9 and be prepared for public hearings. I know the Members can appreciate that a lot of time gets tied up in the overall presentation, supply of information, action plans, and responses to different committees.

I'm wondering if the date of May 9 is realistic, with the knowledge that the committee has and the concerns that they know are out there. I know that an ordinary MLA, just in dealing with their own constituency, can see similar problems. I'm just wondering if the standing committee, reflecting upon the magnitude of the concerns and the job the department has to do, thinks that May 9 is a realistic date? Thank you.

Committee Motion 41-12(5): That The Department Of Health Develop A Two-year Action Plan, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 954

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Chairman of the Standing Committee on Finance, Mr. Antoine.

Committee Motion 41-12(5): That The Department Of Health Develop A Two-year Action Plan, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

March 29th, 1994

Page 954

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. All the responses to the Auditor General and the committees of the Legislative Assembly have already been made by the department. We received them and we have an analysis by our staff of some of it. We also received the response to the Special Committee on Health and Social Services. In our report we talked about these responses and we said that the document Renewed Partnership was quite good. It showed some themes and some context.

There have been responses to all the recommendations already. We just wanted to know if the department could put together an action plan on how they could put all these different recommendations together. It seems to me that most of the work has already been done. It is just a matter of how the department wants to coordinate it together into an action plan. That is what we are requesting. Thank you.

Committee Motion 41-12(5): That The Department Of Health Develop A Two-year Action Plan, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 954

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Madam Premier, to the motion.

Committee Motion 41-12(5): That The Department Of Health Develop A Two-year Action Plan, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 954

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Mr. Chairman, it's not that I'm questioning the recommendation or what was being asked for. It's just that the Member should understand that a lot of the recommendations from the various standing committees and the Auditor General, at times, conflict. There are some that would make a recommendation that's different than what another standing committee would do. So all those things have to be tied together.

As well, there is an intergovernmental requirement to try to put people together, because it's often not just the Department of Health that has to deal all alone. On some of the issues and recommendations, it requires the help of the Department of Personnel or the Department of Education, Culture and Employment or Social Services, because they cross-reference.

So it's just my concern that I wouldn't want us to be delinquent in terms of trying to meet that date. I just feel that the date...With the request and the work that has to be done to coordinate the intergovernmental activity, it might take some time to do. It's not only with all the recommendations because it's more than the Department of Health. If you take the references you have to the other committees, there are broader issues that impact on the Department of Health, and it would be difficult, I would say, with taking seriously all the recommendations, to pull it all together by May 9. I just want the committee to consider that. Thank you.

Committee Motion 41-12(5): That The Department Of Health Develop A Two-year Action Plan, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 954

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. To the motion, Mr. Antoine.

Committee Motion 41-12(5): That The Department Of Health Develop A Two-year Action Plan, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 954

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you. If there are conflicting recommendations, I am sure that the Department of Health has already identified those -- they should have -- and the cross-referencing and so forth.

With the interdepartmental concerns and intergovernmental concerns, there are areas and recommendations that may identify resolutions in that area, if the department could identify those.

I think the majority of the recommendations are to try to streamline the financial operation and to provide better programs and services to people in the community. I think the majority of those recommendations are those. If you could even identify those and identify the areas where you perhaps have conflicting resolutions.

Perhaps I don't know how the department works, but with the responses that we received, some of the responses were very good and some of the responses were not too good, and we would like to see if they could put together an action plan with that. I think the May 9 deadline could be reasonable to achieve. Thank you.

Committee Motion 41-12(5): That The Department Of Health Develop A Two-year Action Plan, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 954

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. To the motion, Madam Premier.

Committee Motion 41-12(5): That The Department Of Health Develop A Two-year Action Plan, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 954

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Like the chairman of the standing committee said, some of the responses have been not too good, and sometimes, when they are not too good it's because there is not adequate time to deal with the issue and try to get the information to provide a good response.

The other thing that I want to bring to the attention of the Members, as well, is that we do have health boards, and it's fine to indicate that the department has an overall two year plan, but we also have to work with the health boards, because, in many instances, the health boards jealously guard their jurisdiction or their home plate, and so it takes us some time to try to work with them. So I just didn't want us to be in another situation where we are being accused again of not being able to meet the deadline. I know that the Member has said that they have travelled to communities and talked to health boards. I think that, with the other people and the magnitude of the problems we do have, this is not an easy program to deliver and try to satisfy all of our constituents.

So the health boards have to be part of some of the answers so that the action plan could be presented, and I don't want us to have to do something so quickly that we have a not a good action plan. So that's just my concern. Thank you.

Committee Motion 41-12(5): That The Department Of Health Develop A Two-year Action Plan, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 955

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. To the motion. I have Mr. Dent and Mr. Ballantyne. Mr. Dent.

Committee Motion 41-12(5): That The Department Of Health Develop A Two-year Action Plan, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 955

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. One point I would like to make sure is brought to mind is that this motion says, be prepared to attend public hearings. The way I read that, it doesn't automatically mean that there will be public hearings. If the Standing Committee on Finance is satisfied with the action plan, then there may be no public hearings held. I don't think that it's ever been said that we've got a date certain that the public hearings will be held.

This committee, in particular, since this legislature has started has insisted that every department has to have a plan of action, a comprehensive plan for where it is headed in order to justify the expenditure of funds. It was a result of the recommendation of this committee, for instance, that we had the Minister of Education present his plan of action which was called, Towards 2010. It's not the first time that this committee has made recommendations that there be a plan of action, and I think that, if you check the records, you will find that we have made this same recommendation for all of the departments, including Health, previously. It is therefore our opinion, as Members of this committee, that this plan of action should be ready, and if there are problems, then those problems should be addressed or should have been in the process of being addressed or else we should have been talking about what those problems were, perhaps in the public forums, so that everybody understood what the problems were.

I think that the Premier has expressed concern about the scope of what an action plan might contain, but as our chairman has said, a comprehensive plan for where a department is headed really does have to do with how money is spent, and that's what we are concerned about. We want to make sure that money is being spent effectively and efficiently, and without a plan of action, how do we know that that's going to happen?

If there's a problem with health boards, then let's deal with that. Let's talk about that in this forum, if that's where the problem is with getting things done. But, as the SCOF chairman has already said, much of the information is already prepared. It just hasn't been put together in a cohesive, comprehensive package that says, here are the steps we are going to take to achieve these goals and here's how long we will take to get them done.

I will take one just right off the top from Renewed Partnerships, the response to recommendation 16. We have three bullets in this document, which was tabled yesterday, which say that the Department of Health will support health and hospital boards to identify training needs and so on; in-service opportunities will be provided yearly or regularly and then talks about the Department of Social Services. Nowhere in here does it say what the time lines are. It doesn't say that we are going to try and accomplish these things in a certain period. That's the sort of information that the committee is looking for in a comprehensive plan of action. We want the responses that we have to date identified in a ranking of priority and we want to know where the resources are going to be found to put them in place and what the expected timetable is.

I've got to say, and I said it in my Member's statement earlier today, that the approach that we got in Renewed Partnerships, the document that the Premier tabled yesterday, was much superior to the response that we have received for any other recommendations coming from committees.

What we are asking is that we get the whole package put together around themes with an idea as to how we are going to accomplish these goals, and, to our way of thinking, this is something management should be doing at all times. This isn't something that's brand new. It's a management tool for somebody who is running a business, who is running a department, who is running government, to make sure that you do have a well thought-out plan of action for where you are going, where you are headed, and if you've got problems, then let's hear what those problems are and let's see if we can't deal with them.

But don't, after we've been asking for this plan for a long time, come back and say that it isn't possible because hospital boards are getting in the way. How are hospital boards getting in the way? If they are, then I want to hear that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 41-12(5): That The Department Of Health Develop A Two-year Action Plan, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 955

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. To the principle of the motion, Madam Premier.

Committee Motion 41-12(5): That The Department Of Health Develop A Two-year Action Plan, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 955

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Just to make a correction, I did not say the hospital boards are getting in the way. The fact is that the hospital boards and the health boards have...How they set their priorities and what they think is important at different stages. In coming up with a comprehensive plan, they have to be incorporated in that comprehensive plan, unless the Members are saying something different. I said, "It is difficult, from time to time, to try to get that working relationship and getting the answers or a consensus on the way a plan such as this would work positively in helping them do their work and vice versa." It is not that anybody is getting in the way. It is the consultive way we have to deal with health boards or any other board.

I would say it would be far easier to put together a comprehensive plan on some departments that are less painful departments in dealing with things that are very close to people and a very emotional part of people's lives. Other departments may have an easier job to put a comprehensive plan together. I am not trying to get out of doing something. I am just trying to bring to the attention of the Members to say, in their own mind, knowing and being fully knowledgeable about some of the things you have seen for the first time for some people, in other communities, the nature of this particular department and what it is dealing with.

If you are quite happy to say that, with those considerations, that this can possibly be done by May 9, perhaps you are a better judge than I am. Thank you.

Committee Motion 41-12(5): That The Department Of Health Develop A Two-year Action Plan, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 955

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. To the motion. Mr. Dent.

Committee Motion 41-12(5): That The Department Of Health Develop A Two-year Action Plan, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 955

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is in response to the Premier's comments. Perhaps the Honourable Richard Nerysoo had it much easier. I do think he had to deal with elected education districts as well as appointed ones. I think

the whole process is not one that is new just to the Department of Health in dealing with boards. I think that all or most of the departments of this government do have boards or agencies with which they have to consult, which have to be included in their plans of action. It would be difficult to imagine Renewable Resources not consulting with aboriginal groups or settlement groups when they are proposing changes to the Wildlife Act. This isn't something that is unique to the Department of Health. It is something that should have been ongoing. If there is something that is causing a unique problem, then let's hear about it here and let's talk about it. Let's see if there isn't a solution. But, to date, I don't know if we have publicly heard that.

Committee Motion 41-12(5): That The Department Of Health Develop A Two-year Action Plan, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 956

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. To the motion. Mr. Ballantyne.

Committee Motion 41-12(5): That The Department Of Health Develop A Two-year Action Plan, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 956

Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will give my perspective on this one. I look at it in a fairly straightforward way. The Standing Committee on Finance had requested of the department, near the beginning of this session, an action plan. The department, at that time, wasn't able to give that action plan, so we deferred this particular department to the end of the budget session. They are still not able to.

The feeling of our department is that there are still unresolved issues between the Standing Committee on Finance and the Department of Health. We think it is responsible to try to conclude the business of the budget before March 31. We think it is responsible to try to conclude the budget of this department before March 31. Rather than drag this out for the next two weeks, force the government to vote supply, force the department to vote supply, or hold the department at some sort of ransom, we thought a reasonable way was to give the department an extra six weeks.

They will appear in front of us again. We will take up this unresolved issue. I don't see it as a big deal. I think it is a responsible way of handling a difference of opinion. It shouldn't be viewed as a total condemnation of the Department of Health or of the Minister. There are some questions that we want answered. That is what it is. We also want to do the responsible thing here and do our duty in getting this budget concluded. I just hope people don't over-react to what the Standing Committee on Finance is asking for here. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 41-12(5): That The Department Of Health Develop A Two-year Action Plan, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 956

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Ballantyne. The honourable Premier.

Committee Motion 41-12(5): That The Department Of Health Develop A Two-year Action Plan, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 956

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

This is generally a different form. By and large, the Cabinet, when the standing committee report comes up, we sit back and say it is a recommendation. I think this is very serious, the job we have to do in Health. I don't think you can compare that to the Department of Public Works or anything else because this is life and death. I don't want you to take it as a question of the motion that is put forward. I just wanted some clarification. I didn't realize that I raised the arguments I did, because I had thought that the leading in comments, that much of this information has come out because of the concern that, when Members, sometimes for the first time, travelling to some of the other communities other than Yellowknife, saw many things that should be addressed. I feel that it is in our interest to do the best we can. If you feel that the issues are as serious as they are and that we can come up with an action plan by this date, I just did not want to disappoint you. Thank you.

Committee Motion 41-12(5): That The Department Of Health Develop A Two-year Action Plan, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 956

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. I think that every department is unique. I don't think we should compare with each other. To the motion.

Committee Motion 41-12(5): That The Department Of Health Develop A Two-year Action Plan, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 956

An Hon. Member

Question.

Committee Motion 41-12(5): That The Department Of Health Develop A Two-year Action Plan, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 956

The Chair John Ningark

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

General Comments

Committee Motion 41-12(5): That The Department Of Health Develop A Two-year Action Plan, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 956

The Chair John Ningark

General comments. Department of Health. We are on page 14-10. Mr. Dent.