To Bill 19. I have Mr. Pudlat, Mr. Whitford and Mr. Antoine. Mr. Pudlat.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm not against the Minister's amendment to the Tobacco Tax Act. I'm not against the proposed increases to tobacco taxes. I will be asking questions after I make some comments. I have some constituents who are in the Quebec area, namely in Sanikiluaq. They are already seeing some changes regarding smuggling of tobacco products from southern Quebec. Companies who are selling tobacco will have to keep a careful eye on how their tobacco is being distributed to northern communities. I feel that organized crime will increase in the Northwest Territories if this bill is to proceed.

I'm not stating that I'm against this bill, however my constituents in Sanikiluaq have very grave concerns concerning the tobacco tax increases because of the increases in smuggling and organized crime that may result in this community. For instance, if they were to go to Montreal or one of the Quebec communities and buy a carton of cigarettes, they would save about $7.85 instead of buying the tobacco product in their community. I suspect that crime will increase with regard to smuggling and I have a great fear about that as well as my constituency.

I fully support the health aspect of the Tobacco Tax Act. However, if there were going to be customers going to Montreal or Ottawa from my constituency of Sanikiluaq, how will they be treated if they were caught with smuggling with a carton of cigarettes or more? How will they be treated by the law enforcement? I think there is going to be an increase of crime when this bill that is being proposed goes into effect. This is the only problem I have with it. Otherwise, I don't have any problems with the bill as it is.

As we all know, we were well aware that the Tobacco Tax Act would be amended to increase cigarettes and tobacco products. We have consulted with our constituencies regarding the increases. They are well aware of the increases that will be upcoming. Some people have really supported the Tobacco Tax Act, but there are some people who have some very good concerns regarding the increases on tobacco, particularly in the Northwest Territories. We all know that the Minister has been briefing us on this bill. We are aware of what is in the bill and what it is meant to do.

If there are going to be some law enforcers in the communities, how will they go through all the luggage and suitcases that go through the airports and terminals? For example, if a person is caught smuggling cartons of cigarettes, they will be charged for smuggling the product. I am sure the people of my constituency of Sanikiluaq will try and get the cheaper cigarettes from the surrounding provinces like Ontario and Quebec. I think this will have to be looked into by the Department of Health or Justice. I am sure many people will have to be searched to see if there are any cigarettes being smuggled into the communities. I wanted to ask the Minister how they will enforce the law when some customers from the Northwest Territories come in from provinces like Quebec or Ontario. How will they go about searching or seizing the luggage and how will they go about charging a person if they have been caught with smuggling? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. People can only be searched if there are reasonable and probable grounds to believe that they may be carrying a product that they shouldn't be carrying. I don't want anybody to get the idea that we are going to stop and search everybody. In talking with the RCMP, the present act is somewhat restricted for them. It was felt that, to give the RCMP and other peace officers a running chance, the act should be beefed up in some areas. To answer the question quickly, we are not going to search every airplane or every person going to and coming from the different provinces, whatever part of the territories they live in. We just don't have enough manpower to do that. We certainly wouldn't have the law to do that, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Whitford.

Thank you. Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With Bill 19, An Act to Amend The Tobacco Tax Act, I guess the ideal situation in the north would be for everyone to quit smoking. Mr. Pollard would be out of $2 million. Personally, I have no problems with the Government of the Northwest Territories sliding into the taxation area that the federal government is abandoning. I support that move based on health reasons. If we lower the cost of tobacco, the cost may be an incentive for the younger people of the north to do a lot more smoking.

That is not in the bill at all. But, the federal government raised the legal age of smoking to 18 years of age and there are no more kiddie packs for younger people. The maximum fine for providing smokes to people under the age of 18 had been $100 and they raised it to $50,000. That's quite substantial. I would like to ask the Minister why he didn't take up that federal government's move? Another question is, is he intending to make these moves? We probably won't be seeing something like this until next fall. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, there are a number of issues still outstanding with the federal government. For instance, there is money supposed to be available to provinces and territories to do advertising campaigns to tell people that smoking is bad for them, especially young people. I think I mentioned in this House that the Ministers of Health across the country are not pleased with the federal government with the 18 year age limit, simply because it's not high enough in some opinions, and in other opinions, it is a difficult age to prove. The age of 19 would have been much better. I said that we were going to look at that. Justice has advised us not to put the age issues in this bill. With regard to other areas that Mr. Antoine has raised, those will be looked at, at a later date, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

When the Standing Committee on Finance looked at this bill, there were only certain clauses in it that pertained to financial matters. It was quite evident that there was total support for that move. However, the other parts of this bill deal with legislation. Personally, I have some problems with the legislation part of it. As a Dene person, we use tobacco differently than other Canadians. I quit smoking but I still purchase tobacco because it is part of our religion, our spiritual belief, that we use tobacco.

Some of you may have participated in the fire ceremony that the Dene in my region have where we collect food and tobacco and feed the fire. We use tobacco as a means to feed the fire. That has been part of the Dene way for many, many years. We also use tobacco as gifts. We give it to our elders. Sometimes, when I travel down south into the provinces and in the states, to attend different Indian gatherings and ceremonies, people give me a carton of tobacco. In the Indian world, and in the Dene world, when somebody gives you gift, you don't say, no, I don't want it. You have to take it.

If I go down south and am given four or five cartons of tobacco, I don't know whether I'm going to be receiving this tobacco, so I can't apply for a permit before I go. And, I wouldn't know how much it would cost, tax-wise, to bring it back. If I bring it back across the US border and the Alberta border and the RCMP stops me, according to this, for a first offence, for less than five cartons, I'll be fined $1,000. If people have been very generous down there and gave me more than five cartons, I could be charged $5,000 for a first offence. That's quite the substantial penalty for me. I've talked to people in my constituency about this and people agree that we should keep the rates that high. There's no problem with it. For the implications that I just explained, it puts us in a very awkward position here. The clauses are put in there for very serious smugglers, people who predetermine ahead of time that they are going to go down there and get a substantial amount of tobacco to resell in the north and make a huge profit. That is the intention to put this in there but there are cases, as I explained, where people will become criminals for practising their religion, if they go right by the law. Based on that, I have some problems with this bill in that area. If there could be some changes made or something added to it to allow for people to carry on in their tradition without any harassment from police officers or any threat. If this is in place and people understand the law, then every time they're practising their religion they will be frightened or afraid whenever they see a police car come down the road because they're carrying tobacco.

Tobacco is also used by some spiritual people that have pipes that are given to then. They practice their way of life quite substantially so they carry tobacco that may not be sold in the store; they make their own. They get the raw tobacco and they chop it up themselves and make their own tobacco. They carry it in pouches and they're not marked. If we go by the letter of the law here, they're also going to breaking the law and will be in trouble. There are a number of examples in that area that I'm aware of that should be stated in the House and people should be made aware that practices like these do happen.

This is legal stuff that we're talking about here. I was told that the last case of somebody getting caught for marijuana was fined $200. If you get caught for the legal stuff here, you get charged $1000. That's a big difference. I was told by these people to raise this in the House. That's the point I was asked to make. I don't know what the implications of what I just said would cost but that is fact of what happened in the community. Either the fines for marijuana charges should go up substantially, that's one way of dealing with that. If some changes can be made to allow for the spiritual significance of what I said for aboriginal...Even non-aboriginal people are starting to practise aboriginal religions now so it not only pertains to aboriginals, it's something that I wanted to raise in the House. If the Minister could reply to that to see if there could be some changes to that bill in this regard. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I recognize the importance of tobacco for Dene people in their ceremonies and feeding the fire, et cetera. I've participated myself on many an occasion. Mr. Chairman, I should say first of all, that if the tobacco is purchased in the Northwest Territories you can be carrying any amount. If it's purchased here there's no fear of harassment by a peace officer. Secondly, the price of loose tobacco will not go back to it's previous price. It will not go back to where it was before. I wasn't getting any complaints about the price of loose tobacco before, which was at $38.51. The price will not go back up that high; it will go to $33.56. It will only increase .40 cents over what the price is at the present time. I don't think, in effect, loose tobacco is going to be cheaper by some $5 than it was prior to the federal reduction.

There's also, south of the lake, and I realize this doesn't do Dene who live in the valley and further down any good, but south of the lake I think we all know that if you're a status person you can go to the Dene reserve and purchase tobacco there tax-free. That's totally tax-free. I have heard of people going there to get tobacco for religious and cultural ceremonies and that's totally legal and it's tax-free. You just have to be a status Dene to be able to purchase those products, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, when it comes down to marijuana I can't comment. That's another jurisdiction but I'm told that legislators are putting minimums in to pieces of legislation right now so that there will be a penalty that is going to let somebody know that we're serious about people who break the law. Perhaps the marijuana laws were in place before this new resolve that we're seeing from legislators across the country. Yes, the fines are going to be stiff for smuggling; yes, the fines are going to be stiff for having tobacco in your possession that is not purchased in the Northwest Territories, but I think that's the only way to do it Mr. Chairman. If you were going to say to somebody well, we're just going to fine you $25 or $30 and slap your wrists, then people wouldn't be deterred by that at all. I make no argument against Mr. Antoine in that regard. Those are stiff penalties and they were put there intentionally, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A final note that I would like to leave this debate with is that I understand that the current law is that it's already an offence to import one cigarette into the north. Anybody who has been purchasing cigarettes in another jurisdiction all these years has been breaking the law. Now this new bill will allow you to bring in one carton without any taxes. In that respect, this bill is better than the current bill. I understand that and I just wanted to clear that point up. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I'm a little bit confused here. To begin with, the intention of the federal government to reduce the price of tobacco was to reduce the smuggling of tobacco from the other side of the border. Ironically, we see an increase in smuggling in the north. What can I say? I think we in the north are paying the price for the solution in the south. I don't know if I am going to support the bill. I will think about it first. I would like my kids not to smoke. I would like to see that this government tax the tobacco accordingly. I don't know what I am going to do in this case. This is the first time I really got confused. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With regard to Bill 19, at this time as it is written now, I cannot say that I will be in support of this bill. In the past, this government had to follow the federal government. The federal government translates as power. If they are going to fix the policies, we tend to follow them. Sometimes, we have no choice but to follow the federal government's incentives. We had realized that the federal government had run into some problems with the smuggling of tobacco from one area to another.

I know that we are going to have the same situation happening to us. I know that there are many bills and acts. Some of us are quite confused as to which direction to follow. For that reason, for those teenagers at that time who are eligible to buy cigarettes at the age of 16, under the federal government, they changed that to age 18. Therefore, we had to abide by that. However, the elders are still living today and adults as I am are growing older. For those people who receive old age pension, they will be greatly impacted by this bill.

In some of our constituencies, I know that people are not using tobacco as much as they used to. Some houses are non-smoking houses now, in my constituency. If there is one person who is a smoker amongst all the non-smokers in the house, even in the cold weather, you still have to go outside to smoke if the house is non-smoking. In spite of that, all the houses are not non-smoking yet.

I believe that tobacco is not good for your health. However, for those who are smokers, they cannot quit smoking. It is impossible for them to quit. I know that tobacco is bad for your health and there are some foods that are smoked. You don't tax smoked food. Have you ever considered whether smoked food or smoked goods are bad for your health? I wonder if there has ever been research on that.

Cigarettes have a warning on the packages warning you that you can get cancer from smoking. Some people who are non-smokers die of cancer too. Perhaps it is from the smoked foods that they eat. I just wanted to make that comment on the fines that are going to be imposed. With all that, at this time, I cannot support the bill today. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, the reason why one carton of cigarettes, tax-free, was put in the legislation is because that parallels Canada Customs and makes for efficiency. I'm told it would avoid nuisance cases, so we were trying to align ourselves. The high fines parallel other jurisdictions, British Columbia in particular. I don't make any bones about having high penalties in this bill. As I said before, Mr. Chairman, there is no point in fining someone $20 and saying they've been a bad person. If you're going to do something like this, then you're going to have to point to a fine that is substantial and meaningful. If we're not going to take it seriously, we shouldn't be attempting to do this kind of legislation.

You've seen how serious smuggling can get in southern Canada. You've seen the effects. I don't think it's going to get to that kind of crisis state in the Northwest Territories, but I certainly think that without some penalty being there when they're caught, I'm sure people will consider the practice of smuggling. I'm not particularly keen on raising the number of cartons a person can bring into the Northwest Territories.

I think six cartons over the period of a year, six trips, one carton at a time, is a little bit more generous in the number of times than Canada Customs. I think they have four. But, certainly, the amount is the same and I think it is a reasonable amount. It is certainly a lot better, as Mr. Zoe said, than the existing legislation. If you were going to start to go to five cartons at a time, you would allow people to go out once every three months and practically bring in all the cigarettes they need for a particular period of time.

Mr. Zoe again mentions the cultural aspect and so on and so forth. As I said, if there are cultural needs, someone can get the product from the Hay River reserve and pay absolutely no tax at all. I think that's reasonable as far as Dene who require tobacco to pursue cultural or religious activities. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.