Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the comments that Mr. Koe has made with respect to Renewable Resources. Regarding the concern about the land claim groups and how the department relates to the various organizations, I think the department is one of the departments of the government that is able to respond and work well with the land claimant groups and, through the land claims, have been able to hire people to work within the department as advisors and to deal with some of the wildlife issues that arise from the various land claim areas in the Northwest Territories. I agree with Mr. Koe that there has to be a close working relationship with the Department of Renewable

Resources, as it is a department that has very real impact on the aboriginal peoples of the Northwest Territories.

With respect to the question of gas, I know that the department makes direct contributions to the various HTAs in the communities and much of the grants that are made to the HTAs are made available to hunters and trappers who are able to make use of them in the way they wish. It may not necessarily be for all hunters and trappers in the communities, but it is decided at the community level who is able to receive assistance. I think, in that way, we are able to assist in a small way in the ongoing operations of hunters and trappers.

With respect to the protection of caribou, I believe the department has been working very closely with the groups in the Inuvialuit area, the Gwich'in, the Government of the Yukon and also in other jurisdictions in southern Canada, to monitor and ensure caribou are protected in a manner that the people would like to see them managed and protected. I recently met with the ambassador for the Arctic, Ms. Mary Simon, and one of the issues we discussed was the Parry caribou herd. I believe she is just as concerned as we are, as a department, and as well as those people who are in the communities surrounding the Parry caribou, about how we manage and revive the herd. I'm sorry, not the Parry caribou herd, but the Porcupine Caribou herd. I believe we, as a department, are working with all interested parties and organizations in order to revive the caribou herd.

In the area of muskox, I'm not totally familiar with the commercial harvest and the work that has been done with respect to commercial harvesting of muskox. But, I'm certainly willing to make myself familiar with the concerns that may be raised.

One of the areas that I have spent a considerable amount of time on is forest fire management. I would have to agree that this is an area which could very easily get out of control, as it did last summer. I recently asked departmental staff to take a look at what this coming summer may be like and come up with a plan where we, as a department, can work to manage forest fires this coming summer, which included coming up with some draft strategies on how we would handle fires that get out of control.

I believe there are strategies and plans out there now that are being used, but in a time of fiscal restraint, we should be in a position to be able to say that the maximum number of dollars that we will be able to use this coming summer will be X number of dollars. And, knowing the maximum amount of dollars that we'll be able to use, we should be able to say to various communities this is the maximum amount of dollars we'll be spending; how is it that we can meet the strategy? I think, with the extensive consultations that have been carried out by the department, we have some good ideas which have come from the communities. Some of which, I believe, we agree with. Some differ from our views but I think, as a department, that we will be able to work with the communities effectively and come up with ways to reduce the amounts of dollars we spend on forest fires.

Mr. Chairman, I think that is all I am able to respond at this time.

Mahsi. I thank the Minister for his comments. On the whole area of fire fighting and fire suppression, fires are nature's way of cleaning our land, and fires have been going on since time immemorial -- long before we took over the program.

---Laughter

It is nature's way of cleaning pollution, cleaning the area and revitalizing, in many cases, the growth and the wildlife that come back into those new growth areas. So I agree that hard decisions have to be made, and I wish somebody would make them because it's costing us a phenomenal amount of money. I think it would be much cheaper in a lot of cases to put a good compensation program in place to compensate for cabins and other areas that are lost than putting the money into airplanes to fight these fires. I think that program would cost us significantly less than what we are now spending, especially in the areas far away from populated areas. I know we have the different zones and we have to recognize that. I am sure that's what you are hearing in the communities, that we have to protect our populated areas.

I know early in my political career I made a statement that most of our money is going into airplanes, flying these airplanes around and then housing the people who fly them. Years ago, they used to round up people off the street and put them to work with backpacks, hoses, shovels and axes, and that used to be the way to fight fires. You had a lot of people employed. In some cases they paid taxes if they earned enough or were eligible for other programs. I am a real advocate of making work where we can to reduce our costs without endangering people.

On the whole area, again, of environmental protection -- and I am pleased to note your comments on the initiatives you are taking -- we have to get some protection, guidelines and standards in place, especially where it pertains to contaminants. I am not sure about your department but I know that the federal government has supported environmental clean-up projects, and I think those are good initiatives and wherever we can we should support them. The Great Slave Lake clean-up done by the Metis project is one example. I know there are others that are done by Inuvialuit on the DEW Line sites. I am sure there are others. We have to support those. Again, they are a good economic boost and it puts people to work. People know the areas and they love being out there. So it does support several things.

On the whole issue of harvesting of caribou, especially near populated areas, the issue of monitoring and enforcing is one which I think most people I know encourage, and they are encouraged by the charges that were recently laid. I think charges are a deterrent to people but my own personal opinion is that there is not enough of it being done. I know the problem; we don't have enough officers to cover our vast areas, but wherever we can and during certain periods of time, we have to be visible. The officers have to be visible, have to do their checking and I believe have to lay the charges. That's the only way you are going to stop the waste and the damage done by certain people.

Now, again, I have to make a qualification that there are certain rights that we have talked about, aboriginal and treaty rights, and they have to be respected, but not to the detriment of wasting the game. I know that's not something that aboriginal people practice. We harvest and we are always proud of the fact that we use most of the product that we harvest, maybe not today but the elders certainly do, so we have to respect those traditions.

Another area that I want to talk about, that I didn't mention earlier, is the international initiative for protecting endangered species. The move these days is to set up parks and wildlife refuges. Again, if we are going to go into that or do those things, we have to protect rights, make sure that the people who are in the areas are in full support and that the land claims clauses are respected. I think it was last year that the wildlife federation or whatever group did a report card, and our grades were falling in the area of protecting our species. The other issue is endangered species. I know some of our species of animals, birds and fish are becoming endangered, and those are areas into which we must put some effort to protect.

Those are my general comments. Thank you for listening.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think the Department of Renewable Resources is the most important department, next to the Department of Education, Culture and Employment.

Mr. Chairman, one area of interest that has been brought to my attention, on two occasions from my community of Pelly Bay -- as I indicated to the honourable Minister in the House a few days ago -- is regarding the confiscation of polar bear meat, especially, and polar bear skins. It is my understanding that it was during the sitting of the House when I was here -- I was not back home -- that Renewable Resources came to Pelly Bay because the community had killed more female polar bears than they are permitted to, but there were still polar bear tags in the community. The hunters came to me. In fact, about two or three hunters came to me and told me that they understood when the polar bear skins were confiscated but their concern was when polar bear meat was confiscated from three of the local hunters. They thought perhaps the game officer from Taloyoak had overstepped his boundaries or authority.

The Minister indicated to me at that time, according to his understanding, that there was no policy with regard to taking meat from a hunter when the hunter supposedly killed a polar bear when the tags allotted for females were over and beyond that quota. Mr. Chairman, perhaps the Minister will be able to respond to me positively this time. He wasn't sure at the time that I asked him. He thought it was not departmental policy to take the meat away from a hunter or hunters.

Mr. Chairman, the honourable Minister will recall during the Nunavut Caucus meeting in Gjoa Haven, the honourable Minister and I had an opportunity to meet with the hunters' and trappers' president, the hamlet council of Gjoa Haven, as well as the rescue committee. At that meeting, it was brought to the attention of the honourable Minister that the community was in the process of coming up with an emergency response plan. I forgot to mention one very important member of the community who was also at the meeting, an RCMP officer was also in attendance.

I was told by Gjoa Haven to remind the Minister that a proposal will be forthcoming. I don't know when. I don't know if the honourable Minister has already received the proposal but I was told to remind the Minister of the initiative.

Mr. Chairman, one of the concerns that came to my attention on a number of occasions, especially from elders who are not as strong as they used to be, is with regard to quick kill traps. Those people who spoke to me about them thought they were too dangerous because they are not able to get used to operating those traps. I know, and you know, Mr. Chairman, that progress isn't progress without change. We understand that; sometimes for the worse, sometimes for the better.

I hope the honourable Minister will endeavour to instruct his staff in that area. I'm sure they have already gone to the communities, but perhaps they could try to teach the elders how to operate the quick kill traps. I'm sure the people who attended the workshops on how to operate the traps were mainly middle-aged. Perhaps, the next time around, the honourable Minister will instruct his staff to try to get the older population of the communities in the region to use the new traps safely.

Mr. Chairman, another point that came to my attention during my community visits to my area -- not only from one community but from all three communities; namely Taloyoak, formerly Spence Bay, Gjoa Haven and Pelly Bay -- is that before my time -- or perhaps I was here, but only had been for a short time -- there used to be a special program jointly funded by the federal and territorial governments which was a special Arctic program. The program allowed hunters and trappers who could otherwise not afford to buy outboard motors, snow machines, hunting equipment and so on, to purchase these with some assistance from the government. To many people of that area, it was very useful.

As we know, the value of fur has gone down dramatically since the day when the animal rights activists became active. Since then, Mr. Chairman, the cost of hunting equipment has gone up about 300 per cent. You and I know that in communities where there are very low job turnovers and virtually no jobs available, the only way of supplementing your income -- which, in most cases, is social assistance income -- is by hunting. Mr. Chairman, you and I also know that every time a person who is a recipient of social assistance looks for other means of earning a living, that is automatically assessed and deducted.

Those were the very important issues which came out of the visit to my area, and not only my area but other regions of this jurisdiction. Mr. Chairman, if the honourable Minister would like to respond to some of my comments, he is free to do so. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will attempt to respond to some of the concerns that Mr. Ningark has raised. First of all, regarding the confiscation of polar bear meat, I looked into that and have found that the current investigation practice of our officers is to seize the whole polar bear, all parts of the polar bear including the meat, for evidence. At this time, this is the current practice. I've asked the department to review this practice and see if there are other ways that evidence could be collected for use in court proceedings.

I understand that once the proceedings of the court are concluded, the meat is returned to the community through the HTA which is then able to distribute it to people of the community. I believe that is the current practice when a polar bear is killed illegally. I have asked if we can look at this practice to see if all the meat is required for evidence. So, it is being reviewed and I should be able to get back to the Member at some point to indicate whether the confiscation of meat is required.

The Member also spoke of the meeting that I attended in Gjoa Haven and I was very pleased to have met the HTA president, members of the hamlet council and the chairman of the search and rescue committee. The area of search and rescue is not within the department's mandate. Rather, it is a mandate of the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs. But, as an interested Member, I have always been very concerned about the work that is being done in the area of search and rescue and have passed these concerns on to the responsible Minister. I look forward to receiving any information that the Member's constituents may have and would be willing to do whatever I can to assist.

Regarding the quick kill traps, the regulation which we have been encouraging and have followed is a European regulation. At the present time, the regulation does not discuss foxes. So, as a department, we have been training residents in the east on how to use the quick kill traps because it is a belief of the aboriginal people, the Inuit, that an animal that is going to be used for consumption or that is killed should be killed in a humane manner. At least, this is the way I was raised and I continue to believe that. If trappers in the east wish to use the quick kill traps, it is entirely up to them at this point but it is not necessary for them to use them. I have also asked the department to continue to find ways that we could find effective traps to be used by trappers. It is something that the department is still looking at, and continues to work with research stations.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I would like to acknowledge that the Minister's department is one of the departments that works very closely with the communities and I would encourage their department to continue that way. I am happy to see that there is $250,000 in the 1995-96 budget included for resource management for South Slave and Deh Cho.

As well, they are looking into options for the uses of seal meat. Although with the project in Broughton Island, Minguq, most of the seal skins that are brought to this industry are the result of the harvested seals for their meat. But I would also encourage the department to see if seal meat can be marketed wider than it has been in the past. I know that there is only one outlet that buys and sells seal meat at the present time, which is Iqaluit Enterprises. He usually purchases it from Broughton Island.

On the resource planning area, I would encourage the department to look into areas where 50 years ago there was wildlife and where now they have been driven away because of settlements being too close to their grounds. I'm talking about the herd between Pangnirtung and Broughton Island in the Padloping area. I don't have extensive knowledge on this as the caribou studies in that area are fairly new, but I am told that it is in the last 50 years, since the establishment of Pangnirtung settlement back in the 1930s, that the herd has disappeared. Whether it is from over hunting or because of the settlement of a permanent place of people that caused it, I don't know.

When I was in Broughton Island the last time, I met with the hunters' and trappers' association and they requested me to see if I could assist them in finding some dollars to travel to Pangnirtung to meet with the HTA of Pangnirtung and try and see if they can revive the herd in Padle Fiord.

The Broughton Island people have to travel through Penny Ice Cap to get to the caribou northwest of Cumberland Sound, and that is quite a distance to travel to harvest caribou. Apparently, there have been talks through the regional office about this as well and it has never materialized to anything. One of the excuses was that the vegetation in that area might not be able to hold a number of caribou. But the fact is, that particular area is deep valleys and it is one of the areas that is more lush than some areas in Baffin Island. So I really couldn't buy that reasoning for not going forward in having the two HTAs hold their meetings to try to see how they can try to get this one area, Padle Fiord area, populated again with caribou.

However, I don't know whether the department has programs other than this $250,000 set aside for any kind of resource development like what I am talking about. But I am happy to see that there is some money set aside for this area because I think this is one area that we could develop more with the department. I would encourage the department to look into this further and perhaps allocate more than $250,000.

I don't have any questions, but I would like to know if there are any dollars set aside for HTAs who would like to have talks concerning resource planning and management. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe I have given a written response to the Member with the particular question on the discussion of caribou around Broughton Island and Pangnirtung. I do not recall what my response was, but I believe there is a study that is going on regarding the caribou. And there will be resource personnel who will be in the area and will be able to discuss with both communities the concerns that are being raised by the HTA in Broughton Island and also by people in Pangnirtung. I'm not able to say whether they will be able to come up with funds to assist with travel, but it is something that I'd be willing to take a closer look at. At the present time, I'm not able to respond but I believe there are funds being used to work with the HTA in Broughton Island and Pangnirtung in the 1995-96 budget. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, I have supplementary comments, if I may.

Mr. Chairman, like I said, I just want to say, for the record, that I encourage the department for their involvement in resource planning and management and hope there would be more dollars put in this area. There are areas in the NWT where renewable resources can have a greater impact, especially in areas such as restocking where, traditionally, wildlife has moved away because of the establishment of settlements.

Another area that I wanted to comment on is that in my area I find the HTAs are very active in working with renewable resource officers and, oft-times, are the ones policing the area because they are the people who do a lot of extensive travel and cover a large area. They make sure people who are harvesting wildlife are abiding by the traditional values of the Inuit; by which I mean, they don't waste meat and skins. Recognizing the fact that HTA funding is very small, with the extensive work they do I was hoping there would be more than $250,000 set aside for resource planning and management so my constituents could use it because they have an interest in resource planning and management. Thank you.

Thank you. I believe the Minister wants to respond to the honourable Member for Baffin Central. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the Member for raising the issue of HTA members and people who go out hunting who monitor many of the activities that take place out on the land. In some of the discussions I've held with HTAs in the communities, this has been raised, as they are the individuals who are out there and, quite often, monitor the various activities. They not only monitor their own people from the communities, but also exploration companies and the tourism activities that carry on. I think there is major involvement by HTAs, not only as members of their organizations but as actual hunters and trappers.

With regard to the discussion of the $250,000 that I remarked on in my statement, this $250,000 is in addition to what already exists for resource development. I believe that it's an additional $250,000, on top of the base we already have for resource development, that we will be making use of. It will be specifically for forest management in the South Slave and Deh Cho areas. I indicated earlier that there is work being done on the caribou herd around Pangnirtung and Broughton Island. I will commit myself to finding out exactly what is happening there and ensure that HTAs in both communities are consulted, as I know they will be, and report back to the Member. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. The honourable Member for Baffin Central, Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to make a correction. There isn't a caribou herd between Pangnirtung and Broughton Island, they are in the Natilikmiot area. Thank you.

Thank you. Your correction is noted. I have Mr. Pudluk on my list.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Do I have time?

You have exactly four minutes, honourable Member.

I, too, have general comments. I would like to thank the Minister again for listening to my constituents. I have a short question and I will pose other questions next week. In his remarks, there are provisions for four part-time and two full-time positions in the six communities. Who gets the full-time positions and who gets the part-time positions? Thank you.