Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just in closing my general comments, I do want to advise the Minister and express my appreciation and my constituents' appreciation for moving the headquarters back to Fort Smith. Their office is a pleasant sight to see in the community. I believe Mr. Parker has the support of the community and the community has appreciated his presence. I believe that his whole approach to addressing problems and looking at the college, with the attitude of ensuring that they provide the necessary service that they should to the western Arctic, is no doubt there. It is really appreciated by many people in the community and certainly by myself. So I would like to thank the Minister for sending back the headquarters of Arctic College to Fort Smith. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. One of the areas that a lot of my constituents and other people across the north have raised quite a few times -- several weeks ago, it was an issue out of the Sahtu -- was the issue of quality of education. It has been a topic that has been brought up by several committees and was one of the issues addressed by the Standing Committee on Finance last year, in terms of how we can address the quality of education. I think there is an agreement that it has to be improved -- I don't know if we are regressing or progressing. We've put a lot more numbers through the

system but I don't know what the quality or end result of the numbers we're pushing through the system is.

We have a proposed Education Act that is going to be tabled, I hope, by tomorrow. It may address some of the responsibilities of all the players in education. But, I don't believe it will go far enough. I don't believe the act is going to turn the system around. There is a priority in education to get quality graduates out of the system. A lot of responsibilities lie with the teacher, obviously with the student, and thirdly, with the facilities the students and teachers have to work with. Those are changing. We have spent an awful lot of money on facilities. I know our population's increasing and there is overcrowding in a lot of places. Also, with grade extensions in the communities, there's now a need to look at some of the communities. I believe that in some places, we're putting grade extensions in without proper planning for facilities and proper academic programs that one needs to achieve matriculation and go on to college or university.

I've always had a concern with the policy of advancing students because of their age. I'm not sure what the proper terminology is for that but if you're a certain age, it is felt that you should advance to the next grade. When I went to school, you had to pass a certain program before you moved on and I feel we should go back to something like that; institute in the north a program of exams and tests to qualify people to advance.

One program that, on the one hand, I applaud the department for introducing is the TEP program. It's been a very good program. We've had a lot of successful graduates and I notice we're expanding the program to two more regions. One of the problems in the TEP program that I've been told about is people who come into the program come in with varied levels of education. We seem to accept whoever meets a certain criteria, but the students who are accepted have a wide range of qualifications. I mentioned yesterday when we were dealing with the Nursing Profession Act that they have an access year program. Year one is an access program. I hope that's something the department has looked at: providing an access year for the TEP program.

The other thing I believe is in the act is the elimination of classroom assistants. We all know that not every student who is enrolled in the TEP program is going to come out as fully qualified teachers, but they're going to bring with them a lot of skills. They already have a lot of skills to be accepted, but once they're out and don't become a qualified teacher, they don't meet all the program requirements -- they have to pass so many courses, I understand -- there is still a role for them. I believe that the term "classroom assistant" is not going to be used any more, so I'm not sure what role there will be for people who don't graduate with full qualifications.

My other concern is with what jobs are going to be available for graduates. I know there is a goal of 50 per cent northern or aboriginal -- and I'm not sure which one it is -- teachers. I believe in the upcoming year we aren't going to have many teachers moving out so there won't be many positions available. We're now starting to get graduates of the TEP program and I'm just wondering where they're going to fit into the system and where the next set of graduates are going to be employed.

There's been a lot of talk about Arctic College. The Minister knows and I know that the Aurora Campus in Inuvik has been fully utilized; overused, in many instances. There are a lot of programs being offered, and the bedrooms and the classrooms in the college are full. That is something that has to be addressed. But, I think it is showing that we can run a college campus effectively, especially with the cooperation of the Inuvialuit and the Gwich'in. I'm very pleased about that.

In the Inuvik region, there is a whole bureaucracy of people involved in education, as we know. There's the Beaufort/Delta divisional board; the CECs; the college; two schools in Inuvik and one in every community; a superintendent of Education, Culture and Employment; the town; and, the aboriginal groups are all interested because they are all contributors to the programs. I think all the players acknowledge that everybody has to get together to do some planning. We're trying that now. There are all kinds of studies and programs going on, but we still need to coordinate these efforts. A major concern is space and then there is the issue of the library; expansion of the college; the possible closure of Grollier Hall and what to do with it; Science Institute administration; and student residences in the existing campus. All of these are issues a lot of people have been wrestling with over the past few years. I think soon there is a need to have a meeting of the minds and get firm direction on where we go.

In terms of the Science Institute, I applaud the government for finally making a decision and moving the headquarters to Inuvik. It is much needed and, in conjunction with the campus, there are a lot of things, I'm sure, that can be developed. The information that is in the Institute can be put to good use. I'm also pleased that the whole are of student financial assistance programs has been reviewed and expanded. There are a larger number of people who are taking advantage of these programs and I'm very pleased to see that we've put extra money into that.

I would like to stop there, Mr. Chairman. Maybe the Minister can respond to some of the comments I have made.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was just wondering whether or not there were too many bureaucrats and you wanted me to bring some back.

No.

I doubt that he would ever recommend that. Mr. Chairman, I will comment on some of the last comments he made.

I do want to say to the honourable Member that I, along with my staff, have already had discussions with Bob Simpson -- who the honourable Member knows quite well -- about the possibility of trying to organize a number of people, including Arctic College; the superintendent of Education, Culture and Employment; the culture and career side; the board of education; CEIC; the Inuvialuit Regional Corporation; the Gwich'in Regional Council; and other funding agents that are located in Inuvik, including the town. We need to get a sense

of where we are going with education and training, generally. We have to get a plan organized in the communities.

We have indicated that we are, as we are in other regions, prepared to work with the regions to ensure that there is a plan of action. I can say that we are working on that.

On the matter of the teacher education program, the whole issue of access is really dependent on the plans. I can advise the honourable Member that the Yellowknife teacher education program, through its planning, organized an access year. In other words, they set up one year to ensure that all those students who would take their first year of teacher education, were prepared educationally and formally to meet the challenges of the program. So they planned that through the boards. It is a matter of the work that is done with the boards. It is all part of the planning process.

The issue of the children moving on from grade to grade to grade, there is no policy in existence. I have been trying to advise the Members that there is no policy in education. We don't have one. The decisions are normally made with the teacher, the parent and the student. Decisions are also made in conjunction with the board. We don't have a policy that says you must move those students on. The fact is we have a curriculum. They are supposed to meet the challenges of that curriculum. As such, they should be marked accordingly. There is no direction that we give that says they must move. That is a certain choice of the student, parent and teacher.

On quality education, I want to say the quality of education is dependent upon a number of factors: one, delivery; two, parent support; and three, student readiness. In other words, it is dependent on the capacity of the student to meet the challenges of the program. Without a doubt, we all understand that there are some learning situations that do not allow students to meet the challenges of the program. A number of people have raised the issue here.

There are all kinds of factors. I can advise the honourable Member that the student/school achievement indicators have shown us a number of weaknesses in our system. The result of that has given us an opportunity now to redefine the work that we have to do to ensure that we improve the quality of education. Even in the Northwest Territories we have differences of quality of education that is being delivered. Whether you are in Yellowknife, Hay River versus Lutsel K'e or Fort McPherson, or Inuvik versus Fort McPherson. It varies. The problem with that is it may not necessarily be the programs that are available. It may be pure delivery. It could be the student.

We understand the concerns that have been raised and we are trying to deal with the issue of putting in place things like educational quality indicators, which are system-wide monitoring and planning processes. We have to determine whether there is success in the system. We need to ensure that we assess the standards of education. The school achievement indicators, through exam writing, is something that allowed us to address that.

I can say there is an attempt on our part to be more involved in the issue of testing. We are also going to get into a new strategy on numeracy and literacy. We are going to deal with a number of options that are being proposed to us. We are looking at math camps for grade nine students who enter academic math 10 courses. We are trying to work with the western consortium of Ministers on a common math curriculum and standards. There is a sponsored session on tests for 1997 and a science assessment. This past year, we had six NWT teachers who were involved in the marking of the reading and writing exams to give us a sense of where we should be going. We are also going to be developing and preparing a guide for grade seven to nine teachers on teaching, writing and reading in the north.

So we have begun the process. Obviously, there will still be questions, but I think that you can see we are making attempts to rectify some of the problems. We may never get to a point where we rectify all of them, but I can say we are on our way. We are making attempts to respond to the concerns of Members of this Assembly, parents, students and teachers. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I will just make a few more comments on the issue of culture, language/heritage and the other part of the department; employment. The preservation of languages and culture still is a major priority and concern of just about everyone in the north. I guess the fears are of the unknown, of where the feds are going to be cutting. A lot of our programs are dependent on federal money. Saying that, this department still, in its budget, through its grants and contributions, provides a considerable amount of money to different organizations in the north. I just want to say that there is a lot of concern. There are a lot of small organizations out there that are doing a lot of good, big work in the communities. They are community-based and work very hard towards preservation of language and culture in the Northwest Territories. I just wanted to put in a plug for them to keep up the work. I hope that, through whatever money we have, we continue to support these organizations where we can.

I note that, again, communication is an area of concern, especially where federal money comes into play because there are proposed cutbacks to CBC, friendship centres and to broadcasting groups, in our own budget. These are all ways that information gets distributed in the Northwest Territories and we have to encourage and support these organizations where we can.

I'm very pleased that new money was found for early childhood development programs and the apprenticeship programs. I think we're all aware that apprenticeship programs provide an opportunity for many, many of our people to become skilled tradespersons. An area where I'm sure we can do a lot more enhancement is to encourage women to take trades and become red seal card-carrying journeymen in whatever trade they pick.

In the area of employment, again, it's no secret that unemployment is rampant in many of our communities, even in the major centres that we classify as level I communities. I've made it no secret that in Inuvik, unemployment is a problem, very similar to many of the smaller communities. Through the initiatives now under this department, we not only have to look at creating jobs in level II and III communities, we have to create jobs and opportunities in the communities where a majority of our population is centred: Yellowknife, Fort Smith, Hay River, Inuvik, and Iqaluit.

I'm very supportive of the initiatives under the income support programs. Again, that is something that is developing. There's a lot of work to do and, hopefully, some of the pilot programs are going to give us a lot of new ideas. I think there are a lot of groups with good ideas and we should get on with it and get the money circulating because there is a lot of money available.

With that, I just wanted to have my say on this department. It's a major department now, with the expansion of its programs, and it's going to become more major with the department taking over the financial assistance programs. Again, planning, as we all know, is crucial at the front-end, not when we have the programs going. That was mentioned more than once during the last couple of days. With that, I'll be quiet. Thank you, very much. Mahsi.

---Applause

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the students who attend Arctic College are increasing in number and I'm grateful that Arctic College is available to them and they are able to attend; some from Iqaluit and some from Cambridge Bay. But, many times, people who want to further their education who aren't fluent in English or don't speak English at all can't attend because there are no instructors who speak the language and, a lot of times, they're not provided with interpreters even though they're quite willing to get more training; for example, in mechanics, carpentry, and plumbing.

The people who work in these fields are quite capable in their work, but they don't understand English and that stops them from further training. Considering their ability to work, in the eastern Arctic, especially, the instructors should be able to speak the language or have interpreters available. I'm grateful that students from Nunavut are able to go to the Fort Smith Arctic College but a lot of times the students are not eager to leave their home communities to further their education, as is the case in Kitikmeot, Repulse Bay, Taloyoak and Gjoa Haven. Some go to Cambridge Bay but there are courses not offered there and students have to go to Iqaluit and other communities.

I'm grateful that the training is available, but when they have to go to different communities, they have to leave their children behind and when they get homesick, they don't continue their education. They go home without finishing the course they were taking.

Children used to be provided with breakfast and this doesn't happen any more. I'm sure a majority of students are fed in the morning by their parents or guardians before they go to school, but I'm sure there are some children in the communities who go to school without having a proper breakfast. It's not that their parents don't love them; they are loved by their parents, but there are families who can't afford it, especially if the parents aren't working and dependent on social assistance. Even though the parents love their children deeply, because there is no food in the house, they are not provided with breakfast because of lack of money. Prices are going up everywhere.

Often, country food is available -- a lot of people who are on social assistance don't have hunting equipment -- but kids nowadays don't want to eat native food all the time. Even as adults, we don't particularly want to eat meat in the morning. Maybe the community education councils are aware who those families are. Maybe, if the parents are on social assistance, those children can be provided with breakfast in the schools, because I am sure the teachers and the community themselves know which students they are.

We all know that if we do not have a proper breakfast, we tend to get tired faster. For adults, if we skip breakfast, it seems okay. I want the Minister and his department to give more consideration to how they can assist further, the students who cannot be provided with nutritional meals in the mornings. I am sure that there are not that many students, there might be two or three students; do you understand? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, in response to the honourable Member, I understand the concern that he is raising about the children and the meals issue. Just to advise the honourable Members, much of the resources for the day-to-day operation and management of our schools and how we deal with students is now transferred to the boards. There is some flexibility of how the boards deal with a particular issue of this type. What we will do is ensure that the comments of the honourable Member are forwarded and maybe there is a way that we can address some of these issues with the boards.

The other point that the honourable Member raised deals with an issue raised by the honourable Member for Thebacha and that was the whole issue of aboriginal instructors that speak the language. I think that if we can get to a point where we can deliver programs taught by individuals who speak the language, we will not be in the situation the honourable Member raises. So we are still moving in that direction and we will try to address that concern with the Nunavut college board.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have a few general comments for the Department of Education, Culture and Employment. This is a big department which combines three important areas: education; culture; and, employment. There are quite a combination of different tasks and activities that this Minister is responsible for. The total amount of O and M is $221.403 million, that is quite a bit of money for education, culture and employment.

I will start off with education, Mr. Chairman. Education has always been a very important program for me. I think education for the people of the Northwest Territories is very important, especially for younger people today. In these changing times, there are a lot of pressures to get a good education. It is very crucial that we provide very good programs to young people today, in the north.

I am very concerned about it because we still have quite a lot of students who fall out of the education system from K to 12. We have very few graduates coming out of the system. We have been saying that for the last four years; since I have been here. In the meantime, this department has amalgamated and changed itself, they have a lot of different initiatives on the go.

We are pumping in $221 million to provide programs and services. What are the end results, what is the end product here by putting this amount of money into the system? I am not criticizing the department but I am just saying that I have viewed it as such, right from the beginning when we had the briefings and so forth. A couple of years ago, it was shown that there is an alarming, higher percentage out there who are not completing grade 12 -- from the time they enter kindergarten until they reach grade 12. Why is that?

If the Minister and his staff have the task of providing this service -- it is an enormous task -- maybe he could give me a quick explanation about why are we still seeing this scenario.

In the education area, we have education boards established, with people from the communities sitting on these boards. Funds have been allocated to each board to run its own divisional education board. I am told that this fund has been cut back and it is causing concerns in the communities; it is also causing me some concern. There seems to be a cut to school boards -- about 2.5 per cent; more than $2 million -- across the north. It is causing concern to the school, and the boards will have to decide where they are going to cut.

Usually whenever cuts are made in schools, the first ones to go are the cultural programs. There are very few cultural programs to begin with. Yet, whenever decisions are made, the cultural aspects of a program are cut first. All the way along we see this problem. Again, maybe the Minister could explain this cut; I guess it is really up to the board to decide where they are going to cut, but the one area that I have always had concerns about it is culture in the schools. As a person who speaks my language, there are fewer and fewer younger people that speak my language, so it is a major concern. One of the areas where there was an attempt to try to keep this language alive was in the schools. With these cuts, I am afraid that those programs will be the first ones to go.

I know teachers who provide this program in the schools and they are struggling along. They don't have the type of material they require and they are struggling along to provide this program as best they can. You have a place where we have a problem where they don't have the material to begin with, and if these cuts come along, I am afraid it is going to be harder for the teacher and the CECs to provide that program.

Mr. Speaker, one of the official languages adopted in this Legislative Assembly is the Dene language I speak in my constituency. It is recognized by this House and it should be provided in the school, no matter what. There should be a condition to the Minister that the official languages be taught in the schools.

Carrying on, Mr. Chairman, with the education program, I want to focus your attention to one of the areas I have always raised. People are falling through the cracks in education and training. There are some people in my communities who don't have an education. There are a number of them who have never gone to school. They are adult men and women now. They have asked that there be a program developed for them, so they can learn how to read and write. Nowadays, you have to be able to read and write. I haven't seen anything provided for them yet. I don't know whose responsibility it is. I've raised it in the House; people have heard me in the House before.

The Minister is shaking his head. Maybe he hasn't heard me before, but I did raise it in the past and I'll get some research done to prove it. It's a concern and I would like to see some answer as to how we can deal with the issue. People have come to me to ask for these kinds of programs and services, and I would like to see something come out of that.

I would like to talk about culture, as well, Mr. Chairman. Culture is very important. I've touched on it. Language in school is also important. There are people in the communities who want to develop and keep the culture alive and there are activities that volunteer groups put on to provide this. There has to be more of that and it's really up to the communities to do, and they are attempting to do so in a number of ways. I guess the major way is through language. This department is responsible for the language program and we know the language agreement with the federal government has been cut quite drastically. Maybe the Minister could tell me how his department is addressing this important issue with less money coming into territorial government coffers from the federal government. And, if there are going to be any cuts, I would like to know which areas they are going to be in.

In the area of employment, there is an income support program being developed by this department, along with the federal government. There is an initiative throughout the country to try to deal with the ever-increasing problem of social assistance and trying to work it into employment and training aspects. I think it's a very good initiative. It's really important to keep people in the communities abreast of the developments. There needs to be a lot of communication and dialogue to keep people informed about the reasons this is happening. Already, we hear there is feedback on the national level from different groups against this initiative. But, in the north, we have a small enough population and people will understand the reason behind the program. There are people in the communities who depend on social assistance, yet there are some able-bodied people in the communities who could probably work if there was work available. I think it's important to have this program up and running and soon as we can.

The one concern I have is that social assistance is going to be taken over by the Department of Education, Culture and Employment at some point in time. I would like to know what is happening, to date, with this. Are there any time frames for when this is going to be transferred over? I've talked to people in the communities and regions who deal with social assistance at the present time, and people in Education, Culture and Employment who are eventually going to be taking over this program -- if it ever does happen -- and there is optimism on both sides that it could be properly handled.

Whenever a government does something, the ultimate goal is to provide good programs and services to the people in a community. The people who use this service have to be kept abreast and informed of the developments. I have a concern that this may not be happening and if information goes out to the communities through the media to keep people informed, that would be one way to alleviate the problems that may arise from this very important service we are presently providing.

In terms of the teacher education program, it is a good program and many people are taking advantage of it. I'm glad to hear that a program is going to be developed in the constituency I represent. I'm glad for that. I think there are going to be people who are going to take advantage of this career development program. There are teachers who have been trained through the TEP program for some time now who would like to go back to school. As you know, Mr. Chairman, once you've been educated in one field, you like to go back and get more training. Some people in my area have indicated they would like to go back and, if the opportunity is available, I'm sure they'd take advantage of it. A teacher education program trains teachers to become teachers but, after that, there should be an opportunity to get further education in that field, if they so choose.

The Minister talked earlier about the quality of education. He mentioned that there is the delivery, parent support and student readiness. There are parents who are very concerned about the education of their children and when students are ready, we deal with the delivery of the program and the quality of education. I think that's what is key. The deliverers of the very important programs and services of this government in the area of education are teachers and educators. They are key to quality education. I know it is a very touchy subject, but it is a fact that whatever we do here, there is a lot of discussion over the last four years on education. We have been talking about the quality of education and we even passed a motion to develop excellence as a principle of this department. Could the Minister tell me if one of the key elements of the quality of education in the north is the teachers' reception to the discussions and ideas that come from Members in this House? Are they open to the type of direction that is given by the people we represent? Is there cooperation between his department and teachers, to try to provide the best quality of education to the students as possible? Could he tell us how that situation is? Furthermore, if that isn't the case, what is he doing, as a Minister, with his department to deal with the situations where the quality of education is at stake because there is a lack of cooperation between the deliverers of this program and the department?

I was just finishing my comments. That is all I have to say for now. I would like the opportunity to say something further after listening to the Minister's reply. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, the honourable Member mentioned the fact that I was shaking my head. I was shaking my head because we have been delivering adult programming for literacy for many years, both in English and aboriginal languages. What concerns me is maybe we haven't been talking to each other or maybe we have misunderstood these issues. I would be most willing to help the honourable Member try to access the appropriate program and give ideas for programs that could be implemented in his community. We have been running programs, in terms of aboriginal language delivery. We have even been in situations where we don't have individuals who could run a program; for instance, in lifeskills development in the community. If there is a situation where we need that kind of support, I would be prepared to give the Member advice as to how we might be able to address that issue. Maybe we have been saying the same thing, we just didn't have access to the right information. I just wanted to articulate that, on behalf of myself and my department.

I do want to deal again with this issue on excellence. Maybe I will go back to a statement that was made by my colleague in 1993. When I became a Minister, just before then and coming into the first session at that time, I think through the standing committee, he made a very important statement that dealt with the whole issue of leadership. The honourable Member said: "Too many departments do not have adequate plans. And the plans and the planning process must be initiated by the Minister." If the honourable Member recognizes that, through the strategy we now have, we have laid out a framework by which we can try to address the concerns the Member has raised. It isn't a simple thing and the Member is very knowledgeable of how difficult it is in our small communities to try to bring some sense of importance to the value of education, particularly in the situations where parents may not feel it is an important issue. Most Members value the importance of education. Many Members here are parents. Like many here, the honourable Member has had an opportunity to go to other post-secondary institutions and see the importance of quality education. So I don't think, Mr. Chairman, that anyone here or myself, as Minister, would argue any of those issues.

What often happens is we have different ways of solving the problem. We have given much support and encouragement to the boards to develop what might be the best approach they could have for them to encourage more students to attend school. The first time I recall the honourable Member raising an issue in this House was regarding high school programming in Fort Simpson. Without that kind of support, he wouldn't see the number of students graduating from his high school since that argument came into the House. The value of high school programming in our communities will get better results in the long term because our children are staying in school longer.

There are some people who question the quality, but I will never question the quality of the student who now comes out of Fort Simpson, because there is commitment to that program. That same result will happen in every other community.

In the last five years, the high school enrolment has increased over 50 per cent. It has gone from 1,675 students to 2,575. That is an incredible amount of work for us to take recognition for. We are graduating more. We have to be proud of the direction that we have received from the Standing Committee on Finance, Members of this Assembly and the support I have been given, since I have been Minister, from Cabinet.

Mr. Chairman, on the issue of language education, my view is that both the Dene Kede and the Innugatigiit are going to be a part of our educational curriculum. It will not be an option. It is going to be part of the curriculum delivery. It enforces language and cultural education. I think it will pay its dividends in the long term, particularly if the teachers who are teaching the program are aboriginal. We won't have to have separate cultural inclusion programs when our teachers are aboriginal. The honourable Member has supported the teacher education program. I do hope that we are successful in accommodating the Deh Cho and the Sahtu this year. We have done it in every other region so far. So we will see the results.

Mr. Chairman, the honourable Member's region, through some very willing individuals, has produced a lot of teachers from the TEP program in Fort Smith. In fact, one of the individuals I think the honourable Member knows quite well: Mr. Andy Norwegian who plays a significant role in the development of language and language programming throughout the western Arctic. I think he's got a lot of expertise and my view is, if anything, there can be no doubt that his region is going to provide some good leadership, in terms of ensuring the success of the TEP program, once we get into it. But, it does require some planning.

The other issue, Mr. Chairman, is the income support program. I just want to say one thing, income support and social assistance are the same program. What we're trying to do in this area is to be more constructive about the use of social assistance in terms of education and training. We've heard about that issue a number of times. It could also be helpful, Mr. Chairman, to those individuals the honourable Member mentioned earlier, for those who don't read or write. We don't want to create a situation where they end up on social assistance; we want to find a way to encourage them to go back to school to get those skills. There could be incentives in that particular area. We're doing that in a number of cases already.

I don't want to go on too much longer. I think, generally speaking, I realize the importance of the comments made by the honourable Member and take them as suggestions and advice. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Maybe the Minister could reply to my comment on the quality of education and delivery. I said that over the last number of years, there have been a lot of comments and direction given by Members of this House with regard to education and I wanted to know if the deliverers of education in the communities, namely the teachers -- who are key in the area of quality education -- are receptive to the directions given in this House. I said other things about that as well, and wondered if the Minister would reply. Thank you.