Thank you Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question is addressed to the Minister responsible for the Finance Management Board, and it is regarding housing for the teachers in the communities. I understand the Minister to say just now that he would be selling the houses to the private enterprise and leasing them back, is that correct?

Mr. Speaker, I guess I would need some clarification from the Minister responsible for the Financial Management Board Secretariat. I understood him to say we are getting out of the housing business. Now we are, in fact, going to be leasing housing from the private sector to guarantee housing for those teachers that do not have any.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Dent, with regard to the Seniors' Fuel Subsidy Program. I have to agree with you, when you basically make the statement that anyone earning over $50,000 can receive a subsidy. I do not think that should have been the intention of the program. I do have a problem when a single person is allowed $12,000 to basically live in a unit and I do not think it is fair to areas, especially north of the Arctic Circle, who have to use a formula similar to the one you suggested.

In my riding, where we do have a lot of elders who own their own homes, they cannot afford to basically continue to pay the high cost of operating and maintaining homes, especially north of the Arctic Circle. I do not believe you took that into consideration when you made your decision. I would like to ask you, Mr. Minister, if you would consider changing your decision and looking at the overall cost of subsidies and take into account that there is a difference in cost of living in the larger centres and south of the Arctic Circle versus between these that are north of the Arctic Circle where they do have a higher operating cost to maintain their units and keep them heated during long winters. I would like to ask the Minister if he would consider looking at changing his decision and allowing those communities north of the Arctic Circle to be excluded from this decision.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I expected with this issue going before committee of the whole that we would be discussing this sort of detailed question at that time. I guess I can say to the Member that the program was changed to match another program that was offered to assist seniors across the Northwest Territories, largely as a result of the need to meet fiscal targets.

If there are individuals in the North who are having difficulty in meeting their needs for fuel, they can address themselves to the income support office in their region and qualify for support for all of their fuel, if need be, though that method. Our income support program is adjusted to community costs so, therefore, I think that seniors are protected through that manner in the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If that is the case, then everything sounds pretty rosy. But, in the case of one instance I had in my riding, an individual lady who has been widowed for a number of years and who receives a widow's subsidy which is classified as part of the income, does not qualify her based on these arrangements. Yet you are saying to just to go the income support office and you fit the criteria, but you guys are throwing everything but the kitchen sink into this one when you add up people's income. You look at widows' subsidies and you look at their old age pension, but I think we have to look at it in the context of talking about widows who are living in their own units who do not want to have to go to

welfare or social services. These people have paid for 20-25 years to own their own units and to live in their own houses. The problem we see in our smaller communities especially with increases in regards to old people in the old folks home, but we are losing a lot of these people who are going back to live with their families who are presently in social housing. I think we are trying to get out of the whole idea that it costs the social envelope of keeping people in houses, but my question to the Minister is, has he considered also the other costs that they are throwing into here such as widow's subsidies with regard to that also?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, this is an income support program. As such, all of our programs which are income support related need to be better coordinated. Yes, we consider all forms of income when considering providing income support. In fact, we have recognized as a social envelope, that we need to find some way to tie the social housing aspect of our programs better together with the income support program. I think, in the future, Mr. Speaker, all of these programs will be much better integrated. The answer is, yes, all forms of income will be considered where determining what level of support will be provided to individuals and families.

With regards to savings to the department, Mr. Minister, I believe it costs this government something like $80,000 a year to house a person in the institute with regard to jails. Yet you are talking about a savings of $200,000 here. I mean, we are talking two people in YCI. Do you not think you should look at everything, and we are talking about cutting the people that need it the most being the last place that we go.

It seems like the first decision you made as a Minister is let us cut the old people's subsidies, the old people's subsidies. I mean, get a heart here, Mr. Minister.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I do not think I am quite as heartless as the Member would like to present me, but I can tell the member that this decision was under consideration for some time, it was not something that was done all of a sudden. It certainly was not the first decision that I made as a minister. I can also tell you, Mr. Speaker, that I raised this issue specifically with the Standing Committee when we were considering it during Standing Committee consideration of the business plans for the department. I warned the committee at that time that this would be a politically sensitive issue. I received no advice at that time to make changes, so it went forward as part of the budget, and this reduction was in fact included in the budget that was approved by this house. Thank you Mr. Speaker.