This is page numbers 1435 - 1455 of the Hansard for the 13th Assembly, 4th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was chairman.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1450

Edward Picco Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and good afternoon, and good afternoon to the committee. Thank you. I wish to report that the Standing Committee on Infrastructure reviewed Bill 19, the Municipal Statutes Amending Act 2, at meetings held in Yellowknife on August 19-21, 1997. These meetings were ably chaired by our friend and colleague, the deputy chair of the Infrastructure Committee, Mr. Seamus Henry.

The amendments proposed in the bill will allow for an expanded range of lenders and financing options available to communities, whether they are tax based or not. Previously, the municipal authorities were restricted to borrowing from the governments and banks. Financing options in the past were limited to debentures. With the amendments in the bill, communities can obtain a more competitive arrangement from a wider range of financial institutions.

During our August meetings, we discussed our concerns with the Minister and officials from MACA in addition to representatives from the Department of Finance and the Department of Justice. Our concerns focused on issues relating to limits being placed on the types of projects that can be financed. The need to identify clearly established approval criteria for borrowing, the need for a definition of the term "land development", restrictions relating to the maximum length of the borrowing term, and methods of debt service by non-tax based communities.

This committee is highly concerned about the fact that there is no definition of development of municipal lands. We ask the government to consider adding a clear, and explicit definition and the government said it was their preference to have this matter dealt with by way of policy. We strongly urge the government to re-think their position and include such a definition in legislation to be introduced in the 5th Session, failing which we as a committee may consider bringing forward a private Member's bill.

During the public hearings the committee received a presentation by representatives of Arctic Financial Limited, outlining their support for the bill, and they also raised questions regarding the rate payer borrowing approval mechanisms outlined in the bill.

The committee conducted the clause by clause review of the bill on August 21st and agreed to report the bill back to the House for further consideration in this, the committee of the whole. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1450

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Picco. Before I allow the committee to go into general comments, I would like to ask the Minister if she would like to bring in the witnesses?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1450

Manitok Thompson Aivilik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to bring in my witnesses.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1450

The Chair John Ningark

Do we have the agreement of the committee? Thank you. Please bring in the witnesses. Thank you. Madam Minister, would you please introduce the witnesses to the committee?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1450

Manitok Thompson Aivilik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To my left if Penny Ballantyne, deputy minister for MACA. And to my right is Colette Langlois, policy advisor in my department and also Mark Aitken, legislative counsel.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1450

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you, welcome to the committee. General comments on Bill 19, Municipal Statutes Amending Act 2, from the floor, around the table, in the committee? I have Mr. Roland, Mr. Miltenberger, and Mr. Ootes. Mr. Roland.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1450

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just on some of the comments made earlier by the Minister, that the changes would allow a counsel to not go out to rate payers to approve a debenture, based on the idea it would save money. Now can you go a little further there, as to it saving money because of a lower interest rate, or it saving money because it is a heck of a deal in Mexico? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1450

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Madam Minister.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1450

Manitok Thompson Aivilik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It would be because of the lower interest rates. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1450

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. General comments, I have Mr. Miltenberger.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1450

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My concern or interest is more in the form of questions than they are of general comments. I am all in favour of more autonomy and freedom for the communities for this particular piece of legislation, since it amends borrowing powers and could have significant financial implications for communities, for rate payers, and of course for the government.

I would be interested to know whether organizations like the NWTAM were consulted, hopefully somewhat extensively, on this particular issue? Is there a safety net? Especially for, if I dare use the word, less sophisticated communities as they try to possibly move into the money market and borrow in a fairly sophisticated kind of environment and maybe lead into decisions that may not be the right ones in the long term? If I could just get some response from the Minister on those two questions on her consultation and the safety nets in place to make sure that while the small communities can maybe borrow from where there are better rates, they do not expose themselves to financial risk that they will not be able to carry because they do not have extra revenue in most cases to offset any possible bad investment decision? Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1451

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. I would like to remind all Members to try refrain from side conversations. Madam Minister.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1451

Manitok Thompson Aivilik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have done extensive consultation with the municipalities and NWTAM and the Hamlets. I guess the question is where will this bill allow Hamlets to go in over their heads? I think that is the question. So the answer is that the bill will allow them to borrow from sources other than the GNWT and banks so that they can shop around for the best deal. The financial situations of municipalities are carefully monitored and evaluated by MACA staff. That would still be happening. We would be assisting them so they do not get in over their heads. All of the borrowing must be approved by the Minister, with the Hamlets, that is the smaller communities. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1451

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. I have Mr. Ootes and Mr. Henry. Mr. Ootes.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1451

Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My questions have been answered through the previous questioners. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1451

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Henry.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1451

Seamus Henry Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is refreshing to hear some of the comments and questions that were made on this bill. I also had the same concerns when the Minister brought this bill before the Infrastructure Committee. I would suggest that I was completely satisfied with the concerns that I had raised and any process that can be put in place to allow a community to the markets and to funds to determine their own future and projects that there was to finance, rather than just having the one source. I believe that is good.

On the question of the non-consultation with rate payers. I had very definite concerns on that. When I found out the provisions that are put in place to deal with that, my concerns were alleviated. I heard Mr. Roland and Mr. Miltenberger ask questions on them. If I could, I would just like to point out some of the processes and some of the provisions that are in place to not have the requirement for rate payers to have input. The first one is that this is not new. This particular clause is in many communities across the country. It is not just being proposed for the Northwest Territories. In other words, it is not new ground. This provision is in other legislations across the country. Secondly, it would be elected officials in the community who would have to approve of their administration bringing this proposal forward. First of all, they would have to approve it. It would also require a by-law on behalf of the municipality.

So there are three processes again for the public to have input into it. As if that were not enough, it still requires the approval of the Minister. So, the Minister has to be satisfied that the plan is in place and that the community is in a financially healthy situation. From my perspective those were some of the issues that our committee looked at and certainly alleviated any concerns that I had with the Bill. I am pleased at the present situation that the Bill is in before this House. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1451

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Henry. General comments. Any further general comments? If not, do we agree to go clause by clause?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1451

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Agreed.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1451

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Bill 19, Municipal Statutes Amending Act, No. 2. Clause one. Agreed?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1451

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Agreed.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1451

The Chair John Ningark

Part 2, clause 2 on page four.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1451

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Mr. Chairman.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1451

The Chair John Ningark

Yes, Madam Minister?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1451

Manitok Thompson Aivilik

Mr. Chairman, I have to read the whole thing. Do I have to read the whole thing? I have to make a motion.