Thank you, Mr. Krutko. We have a motion on the floor to report progress. The motion is not debatable. Do I have a quorum? Yes, I have a quorum. All those in favour? All those opposed? Thank you. The motion is defeated. Could I have some direction? I believe we were supposed to move on to the Department of Transportation. I believe that was what the committee agreed to earlier. I will invite the Minister of Transportation, Mr. Antoine, with his opening comments.
Debates of Feb. 25th, 1998
Topics
Committee Motion 28-13(5): Recommendation To Provide Fair And Equitable Access To Compassionate Travel
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Committee Motion 28-13(5): Recommendation To Provide Fair And Equitable Access To Compassionate Travel
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Mr. Chairman and thank you, Members of the committee. I am pleased to submit for your review today the Department of Transportation's main estimates for 1998-99. The department's total proposed budget for 1998-99 is $86 million. This total includes an operations and maintenance budget of approximately $56 million and a capital program of approximately $30 million. The transportation budget for 1998-99 remains essentially the same as the past fiscal year.
The single greatest challenge for the department has been adjusting to the reduction in its funding base. The department met its overall budget targets this year through large reductions in its capital program. This was a deliberate decision to maintain the existing levels of service that the public has come to expect of the transportation system in the day-to-day operations of our airports, highways and our ferries. Under the circumstances, I believe the decision to minimize the short-term impact on the transportation system was the best decision to make. However, as the comments from the Standing Committee on Resource Management and Development clearly recognize, the department's capital program does not support our aspirations for sustained economic growth and development in the long-term.
This is the larger context that I would ask the Members to keep in mind as we go through the department's budget in detail. We are in difficult times and they are not without their consequences. This budget does not let us do many of the things that we would like to do and that we know should be done.
With these few remarks, Mr. Chairman, I look forward to the Members' comments and questions. Mahsi, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 28-13(5): Recommendation To Provide Fair And Equitable Access To Compassionate Travel
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair Vince Steen
Thank you, Minister Antoine. I will now invite Mr. O'Brien on behalf of the Resource Management Committee for committee comments on the review of the departmental estimates. Mr. O'Brien.
Committee Motion 28-13(5): Recommendation To Provide Fair And Equitable Access To Compassionate Travel
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Kevin O'Brien Kivallivik
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Under transportation for the upcoming year, the Department of Transportation outlined a total proposed budget of $86 million, $56 million which is in operations and maintenance and $30 million which is in capital estimates. This equals a total budget decrease of $28 thousand in capital from the 1997-98 budget. In addition, the department plans to cut two positions, reducing from 330 to 328 positions. The standing committee expressed concern about the number of pilot projects within the department.
The committee is concerned about the additional costs these projects will incur, such as the expenses involved in the start of a pilot project, and questions where the department will find available funds to carry out the necessary negotiations with the communities. The committee Members would like to review any new pilot projects that the department may initiate in the future.
Keewatin Marine Resupply Strategy remains a concern. The government announced recently that this controversial strategy will be delayed for the life of this government. The committee supports this decision but does not agree with some of the actions of the department before the decision was made. Committee Members are of the view that the government did not comply with the spirit and the intent of the recommendations of the Keewatin Marine Resupply Steering Committee.
When the government released the statement of its intension to delay the Keewatin Marine Resupply Strategy, committee Members felt statements made about the substantial cost savings were not fair and did not represent a balanced account of the facts. No substantiation was provided as an explanation of these cost savings. Members were concerned about the governments paternalistic attitude in the distribution of this information. Mr. Chairman, I will now ask my colleague to continue on.
Committee Motion 28-13(5): Recommendation To Provide Fair And Equitable Access To Compassionate Travel
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Committee Motion 28-13(5): Recommendation To Provide Fair And Equitable Access To Compassionate Travel
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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James Rabesca North Slave
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The committee Members noted that NAV Canada has increased its rates which will affect northern airlines' costs and will invariably be passed to the consumer. Members expressed concern about these increases to airline costs and their effect on the residents of the NWT. The Members requested to be kept up to date on any further fee schedule changes that may occur. The standing committee is also concerned about the air navigation services this private company provides. Unlike our southern counterparts, local flight services are not an alternative to other transportation services, they are essential. The committee wants assurance that the safety of the pilots and passengers are not compromised.
Department officials emphasized the lack of funding available to build a new infrastructure and explained that they are exploring options with the private sector to determine the interest level for joint ventures. Members welcome the idea of joint ventures but emphasized that where a joint venture is approved in relations to transportation, the Minister of Transportation must maintain clear authority. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask my colleagues to read the other part of the presentation.
Committee Motion 28-13(5): Recommendation To Provide Fair And Equitable Access To Compassionate Travel
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Committee Motion 28-13(5): Recommendation To Provide Fair And Equitable Access To Compassionate Travel
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will conclude the report on Transportation from the Standing Committee on Resource Management and Development. The privatization of the motor vehicle division has resulted in an increased cost to obtain a licence. The increase arises from service charges and the goods and services tax. Members want the government to ensure the privatization of services will not mean an increased cost to consumers for obtaining these services. Members noted the danger that the increased charges ensuing from the privatization of the motor vehicles division may set an unwelcome precedent for other privatization initiatives.
Committee members were concerned about the transfer of airports in the Keewatin region and were advised that the transfer of airports in the Keewatin region is a pilot project. Members are interested in the outcome of this community empowerment initiative and look forward to determining its results. The standing committee notes that the department has provided responses to all information requests outstanding at the conclusion of the committee review. That concludes the report on Transportation for the Standing Committee on Resource Management and Development and the review of the 1998-99 main estimates, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
Committee Motion 28-13(5): Recommendation To Provide Fair And Equitable Access To Compassionate Travel
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Committee Motion 28-13(5): Recommendation To Provide Fair And Equitable Access To Compassionate Travel
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Yes, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 28-13(5): Recommendation To Provide Fair And Equitable Access To Compassionate Travel
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Committee Motion 28-13(5): Recommendation To Provide Fair And Equitable Access To Compassionate Travel
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
Committee Motion 28-13(5): Recommendation To Provide Fair And Equitable Access To Compassionate Travel
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The Chair Vince Steen
Thank you. Would the Sergeant-at-Arms bring in the witnesses and seat them please? Could I have the Minister introduce his witnesses please?
Committee Motion 28-13(5): Recommendation To Provide Fair And Equitable Access To Compassionate Travel
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, to my right I have Mr. Ron Williams, the deputy minister for the Department of Transportation; to my immediate left is Masood Hassan, the director of planning; on the other side of him is Mr. Doug Howard, the director of policy. Thank you.
Committee Motion 28-13(5): Recommendation To Provide Fair And Equitable Access To Compassionate Travel
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair Vince Steen
Thank you, Mr. Minister. Welcome to the committee. I will now open the floor to general comments on the department's estimates. I have Mr. Ningark to start. Mr. Ningark.
Committee Motion 28-13(5): Recommendation To Provide Fair And Equitable Access To Compassionate Travel
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John Ningark Natilikmiot
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Before I get to the core of my statement, I wanted to express the appreciation of the Minister and the department for giving us the air terminal building that was completed about a summer ago. Also, the surface upgrades of the runway in Pelly Bay. Mr. Chairman, the people in Pelly Bay expressed their appreciation when we had the opening of the air terminal building. Mr. Chairman, we also appreciate the fact that the Minister and the department give the community, on a yearly basis, a small, minimal amount of money to construct the access road to hunting areas. The particular access road I am talking about will has, in a matter of speaking, facilitated hunting, recreation and tourism, even though it is not completed yet. I believe it is about half way to its designated point. Mr. Chairman, I hope the Minister and the department will continue to provide funding, although it is minimal, but every little amount that could be given to the community's use for something is worthwhile. People have talked to me about this access road which is not completed yet, especially people who are not able to travel on the rough terrain, like the elders, the handicapped, children, women, et cetera.
Mr. Chairman, another point I would like to bring up to the Minister, I am sure his officials are aware of. I do not know if the Minister is aware of this concern in Pelly Bay which has been on the table for many years now, as long as I was the SAO, that is over ten years ago, is the location of the tank farm. The concern has been safety, environment. The tank farm is situated very close to a couple of garages, and it is also very close to where the kids hang around the arena and it is very close to the health centre. I am sure the Minister and his officials are aware of this concern which has been on the table for many years now. I do not think I have anything else at this time to get the Minister's attention, but I wanted to get the assurance that the Minister will try and continue funding the much needed access road which is being built in Pelly Bay. We receive about $10,000 a year. We have done that for about five or six years now, but it is not completed yet, so this is one area of concern that the people in the community, young people, elders, hunters, trappers, women and so on, are very keenly aware of. They would like to see this concluded sometime in the near future, perhaps this year or next year. Thank you.
Committee Motion 28-13(5): Recommendation To Provide Fair And Equitable Access To Compassionate Travel
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Committee Motion 28-13(5): Recommendation To Provide Fair And Equitable Access To Compassionate Travel
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Floyd Roland Inuvik
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As many are aware and other Members have brought up, the situation in the Mackenzie Delta, as well as the rest of the territories when it comes to roads and transportation initiatives. We have heard many times that we cannot secure the funding to the amount those projects spell out. Though, I am happy to hear the Minister say he would be looking at different ways of trying to address the issue in a much slower way in looking at different initiatives of trying to get something moving in this area. Specifically in Inuvik, the Inuvik/Tuktoyaktuk highway section was, I believe the amount initially showed a $160 million plan and a joint committee of the town of Inuvik and the Tuktoyaktuk council, along with their consultant, looked at the plan. Their report states they can do this in the area of $40 million. That is the level of a service road, not to the level of the Dempster Highway, for example, knowing that this government is hopefully looking new initiatives and new ways of driving these projects.
As I said earlier, if we can put people to work, we would end up lowering the impact on the government when it comes to social programs. I see highways and the building of highways as a good initiative that would drop the costs related to this government in other areas, as well as bringing in new dollars in the area of tourism. This is an initiative that we need to focus on and look at. I am sure there are many reports done by this government in other communities and so on when it comes to, as we call, the tire traffic or the tourists coming up and down the highways of the Northwest Territories. Although, in some cases there is the economic weighing of these projects seems low, we need to be looking at the other affects of putting people to work and creating employment and creating a tax base from people being at work instead of being on income support, as well as in the area of reducing the demand for, as I said earlier, government assistance or social assistance. There are many initiatives and ways to look at these projects. If we could learn a lesson out of the pages from the eastern and maritime provinces and how they work and set up their projects. Not all people are in favour of those programs, but I think that is an initiative which can be looked at. If there was some success in it, it would definitely reduce the impact on our budget if we can work those models into our transportation strategy.
Many people in the territories have heard this discussion. This has gone on and on for many years and the possibility of going on for many more. Until we actually start putting some plans into action, we will continue to speak about it, but hopefully with the commitment from the department and the Minister, we can actually start putting some plans together and start seeing some initiatives happen in the near future. I would encourage the department to continue looking at these initiatives and new ways of doing these programs and trying to put people to work. We have the labour force available and we have a lot of people willing to invest in some of these ways of doing things, whether it is training or equipment. If they know this government would commit to a process, whether it is 5, 10, 15, 20 or more years. As I said in one of my Members' statements that I believe this is an area where it can be looked at as a job strategy. I believe many people would look at this as a positive venture.
I can recall in the days of the Dempster Highway, even though it was not complete, many people used to drive to the end of where the highway was just to say they were there. I can remember as a young child going with my parents from Inuvik out on the Dempster to where the road ended and we would have a picnic there. Although many people look at something as not being valuable until it is complete, I think this, as an initiative, would draw more people in the area of tourism and interest amongst northerners.
I would support the Minister and whatever I could do to try to help out and create some sort of initiative to proceed with this. I think it is a good thing. Just a simple way of putting things, I think we heard the amount the Premier, when he responded to me in the area of $900 million, but that is an extreme number when you look at it, especially when our yearly budget is just over a billion dollars. If you spread it out over more years, it becomes achievable when you break it down to many more. Although my counterpart from Thebacha figures we can do a million dollars a year, I think we could probably do more than that. It is an initiative which needs to be focused on. Although, he says, $9 million a year, it would be 100 years. We can do better than that. For example, in the Fort Smith region there is something in the area of $16 million. If we can keep a number like that on the books on a yearly basis and work up the value or start from each community along the way, we would put people to work and take them off income support lines. If they had enough time, maybe the federal government would be paying for their off season, so to speak. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 28-13(5): Recommendation To Provide Fair And Equitable Access To Compassionate Travel
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. I have Mr. Ootes. We are on Transportation, general comments. Mr. Ootes.
Committee Motion 28-13(5): Recommendation To Provide Fair And Equitable Access To Compassionate Travel
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Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Part of our discussion during the review of the business plans for the department concentrated on the area of the reductions for this particular department. It goes along in the same vein as my honourable colleague from Inuvik, Mr. Roland, just mentioned, we do need job creation but at the same time it benefits the territory as a whole.
One of the areas of tremendous concern that I have expressed several times with this particular department and with the Department of Renewable Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development, is the fact they have been cut back. I realize that we have had to bring our budget in line and had to cut the deficit. In my opinion, the cuts in these departments results in further unemployment, which results in people having the need of going onto the safety net in the territories, which in essence, increases our costs, which in some ways is unproductive. There needs to be support and I emphasized this to the Minister to pass along to his cabinet colleagues, to ensure these two departments, specifically Transportation and RWED, need more money. And why? It is because they can enter into projects that will benefit the territory as a whole. Job creation, like Mr. Roland said, you improve the highway system, you also increase tourism. It is extremely important, in my mind, to have those kinds of initiatives developed in the territories. We need the highway from Rae to Yellowknife improved. It is in terrible shape. It is prone to accidents. It is a stretch of highway, where if we could concentrate some funds in that area in the next couple of years, we could definitely improve our tourism. Secondly, the spinoff benefit is the trucking industry, the residents of this area and to everybody. At the same time, we are creating jobs.
The concern I have is with that whole area, Mr. Chairman, the fact that we keep peering at these departments, but if we are not careful, the social envelope area is going to go from 65 percent to 70 percent to 75 percent. I realize we have need in those areas. I am not trying to denigrate those needs. What I am saying is, we also have needs in a department that is a job-creating type of department. That has to be kept in mind by all Members of the Legislative Assembly. It certainly has to be kept in mind in formulating the budget. I would strongly urge the Minister for next year, with these budgets, that have basically been put together which we are here to review the efficiency and allocation of the total budget. Next year, I will want the Minister to push for more money into this particular department. I can see nothing but good coming out of that. Those are my comments, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
Committee Motion 28-13(5): Recommendation To Provide Fair And Equitable Access To Compassionate Travel
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Considering Transportation. We are in the general comments. Are there further general comments? Mr. Picco.
Committee Motion 28-13(5): Recommendation To Provide Fair And Equitable Access To Compassionate Travel
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Edward Picco Iqaluit
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, just some short comments on the Department of Transportation. Over the past several months, I have had an opportunity to meet with the Minister on various constituency issues. The Minister has always been available. He has had staff at the meetings and any time I have sent E-mails or letter requests to the Minister and his staff, they always respond. So I thank the Minister for that.
The breakwater project in my community, under the Transportation budget, has been a very important one. It is ongoing. There was a concern when the mayor and deputy mayor met with the Minister before Christmas, trying to priorize some other breakwater projects within the community, hopefully moving them up into the capital budget. We were not able to accomplish that. We will be asking today to seek assistance from the Minister to try to get them at least in the five-year capital plan, because they are not there now.
Later on today, I will have an opportunity to ask the Minister if he is aware of these developments and the department?
On the access road that Mr. Ningark and some other Members have spoken about before, we did try to get some access road money into my community because we have never accessed any money for several years. We are looking at a small sum of about $40,000. We were not successful and I have not seen it again in the five-year capital plan. I will be asking the Minister and his staff if that can be advanced into the five-year capital plan?
Under cold weather testing, we have had some success over the past two years in Iqaluit, using the airport for cold weather testing. Last week we had a meeting, myself and the president of the Qikiqtaaluk Corporation, about more aspects of cold weather testing. I think this is a good news story. It has pumped, over the past two years, more than a million dollars into the economy. All new money, like Mr. Roland spoke about this morning. New money coming in. So that is a good thing. I am hoping to get some more information from the department, if they can help us look at cold weather testing. How we can market our airport?
On a different matter, is the NAV Canada. NAV Canada has won a large contract I would assume. I understand it was the largest privately financed deal of any company in Canada. They have taken over the operations of the air guidance systems across the country. There have been some concerns from airline carriers with the rates that they have been charging. Of course that comes back into the pocket books of the residents. In the eastern Arctic, as you know, Mr. Chairman, we do not have access to roads. All we can do is fly things in or wait for the annual sealift. We are in a unique situation that needs to be addressed when these types of issues come forward. I know I wrote the Minister of Transportation sometime late last year on the NAV Canada rate increases and the Minister again responded very quickly and indeed had been lobbying, I understand NAV Canada, on this issue. It is a concern for the Government of the Northwest Territories. Later today, when we get that line item, I will be asking some questions on NAV Canada and their rates they have been charging. With that, that is my opening comment on the Department of Transportation. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 28-13(5): Recommendation To Provide Fair And Equitable Access To Compassionate Travel
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair John Ningark
I thank you, Mr. Picco. General comments. Mr. Evaloarjuk.
Committee Motion 28-13(5): Recommendation To Provide Fair And Equitable Access To Compassionate Travel
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
February 25th, 1998
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Mark Evaloarjuk Amittuq
(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a general comment, if I could. I know that the Department of Transportation is not in a business of dealing with or regulating the private airlines. With us living in the high Arctic and in regard to the price of freight that is sent to those remote communities, such as mine, the Pond Inlet people have been asking for an airstrip so they can get a larger freighter airline into their community. First Air goes from Ottawa and Montreal to the eastern communities into the Baffin region. They are the only airlines that service our communities. Using this as an example, I heard recently that if I ordered a skidoo from Montreal to Pond Inlet, it would cost in the neighbourhood of about so much a kilo. If I order from Montreal to Nanisivik, the same skidoo that weights the same weight would be half the freight I would have been charged. That is the reason why they would like to get a larger airstrip. This way would be cheaper. We just have First Air. That is the only airline we have that comes from Montreal, Iqaluit and from Iqaluit a 748 goes to those smaller communities. From Iqaluit to the rest of the communities, the smaller airlines go to those smaller communities. It is pretty far from Iqaluit to those smaller communities and the freight they charge, is a lot more. For that reason they have been wondering if they would be able to get an airstrip, so they could have larger aircraft taking those freights to the other smaller communities. They feel it would be a lot cheaper. I have been told it would be cheaper.
I just want the Minister and his officials to consider that request and Pond Inlet does not have sealift facilities as well. I mentioned before, Pond Inlet does not have a cove, an inlet or a bay for the ships to be able to port there. Freight is getting very expensive, especially when they are using a small aircraft. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (Translation ends)
Committee Motion 28-13(5): Recommendation To Provide Fair And Equitable Access To Compassionate Travel
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you, Mr. Evaloarjuk. Do you want to go into detail? Mr. Picco.