Total loans approved, Mr. Chairman, under Aurora 1996 are $18,263,350 and under Aurora II, $17.2 million.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Ootes.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could the Minister tell us how many companies in total have received funding?

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There are approximately 12 as of March 31, 1999, that have received funds.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Ootes.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Is that 12 separate companies or did one company receive more than one loan?

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There is one company which has received more than one loan.

Mr. Ootes.

If I am to understand, therefore, there were really 11 companies that received 12 loans, if I interpret that correctly. Could the Minister tell us if there has been some tracking of employment created as a result of these loans?

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That information is being sought now from the companies.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Ootes.

Can we have an indication of when we may expect some answers on that?

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Depending on how long this sitting lasts, I will endeavour to get that information to Members before the end of the budget session.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Ootes.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the Minister's work on this to supply us with the information. Could the Minister tell us if he can provide the amounts given to each particular company? I believe that when the first batch of loans were announced the amount of the loans was associated and identified. The second batch that we were given I have been informed that we cannot receive the amount of the loans. I think it would be extremely helpful for all of us if we had the detail of how much each particular company was loaned. I know that there have been comments back to me that there is a certain amount of privacy involved with that but the way I look at this is we are dealing with, perhaps it is not government money in the clear sense of the word, but we are involved in ensuring that this is properly administered and properly allocated. I wonder if the Minister could look at this and if they cannot supply it, I would like to know some real reasons why we cannot get it.

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In fact we have to seek consent from the people who received the loans to disclose the amounts. For those companies who have signed such consent, I would be prepared to provide that information to Members fairly quickly. The Member asked why we should not

make this sort of information public and I would say that what you have with an immigrant investor program are a number of people who, as a condition of immigration to Canada, are required to invest their money in businesses in Canada. As such they expect to be treated as any other investors in business. This means that typically they are not identified publicly as investors. The people who are borrowing the monies are doing so just like going to a bank.

Again, if we are in competition with the banks, which in fact the Aurora Fund is, unless you are offering some advantage to companies why would they come and borrow money from you? When this program was started there was an expectation that bank rates would probably rise, and through the Aurora Fund we would be able to offer investors a preferred rate of interest which might attract people to use these monies in the north for businesses that could not otherwise get bank financing. In fact, as Members well know, interest rates have not increased in the past couple of years and in fact, the rates that the Aurora Fund offers its monies are very close to bank rates. There is not much of an advantage in a business coming to the Aurora Fund and asking for funds over that of going to the bank. Since there is no preference, there are companies that say why would I bother to borrow money from a fund which has obviously become a political target. That is the situation in which we find ourselves at present. As I said, Mr. Chairman, I would be quite happy to provide Members with a listing of the loans and the amounts for those companies, which have signed waivers.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Ootes.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do believe that the first announcements did contain the amounts with them so obviously something has changed since the first release of those who are holding loans. I do not think it necessarily in my mind would become a political issue if we knew the amounts from the companies side. After all, I look at it and say, well, how do we know, there may be 12 loans out there but does one company get $10 million and another company, $8 million, and the rest is divided up between the ten other companies, leaving maybe $3 million. It is kind of an area of concern that I have.

I realize there is a Board of Directors for this to administer and so forth but it does relate to the question are these invested in businesses that have created employment? If we do not know the employment that has been created for all this, and that is obviously why we did it in the first place, we made an up-front investment of, I believe, something in the neighbourhood of $1 million was bandied around that it cost to set all this up and to administer and so forth. Fair enough, but $1 million could have bought us a lot of jobs too. I do not know whether it was that amount but whatever that amount was the object of the game, I think for us, should be are we creating employment? I cannot relate if I do not know each particular company investment, the investment we have made in each company and what was the return of those companies.

Again, we could take a situation of the two companies, one with $8 million and one with $10 million, is it in the area of $3 million divided over the ten companies that have created all the employment or is it the two companies that have created all the employment? We just do not know. I think to get a proper picture of this whole thing, we need to have detail and data.

Thank you Mr. Ootes. Mr. Minister.