Thank you, Mr. Morin. The motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Morin.

To the motion. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have not been in this House nearly as long as the honourable Member posing this motion. I have, however, been here long enough to have heard him speak of capital projects that are not necessarily kept the same throughout the life of their conception and completion in this government. I disagree and would challenge his definition of what constitutes a new capital project. In our budget books we have a capital project for YCC. We are not changing the functional program by switching from renovation to new construction. Is the Member saying then that we should cancel the work on Tsiigehtchic School because we went from renovation to new construction? I do not think so. Over the years while meeting in this House, we have made this kind of change many, many times. There is no acceptance that we did not follow the proper process. What we apologized for was being slow at giving the committee notice. Contrary to what Mr. Morin alleges, because this is not a new capital project, this falls under section (b), 4.3(b), which says that the responsible Minister will advise the appropriate MLA and standing committees of changes made.

Therefore, it is not to be considered as far as this government is concerned, as a new project. There has been no change in the functional program. The project itself exists in the book. I listed three projects today where we made a switch from renovation to new construction, all based on information that was brought forward by consultants to demonstrate that we could save the public a considerable amount of money. It has been done in the past. Why would we not do it again in this situation? We should do it again in this situation.

I want to make it very clear that this government has apologized for not following the procedures as quickly as we should have. We should have advised the committee earlier. We are not saying that we did not follow the guidelines. Mr. Chairman, I have to say that I am really quite taken back by this motion and I do not support it. Thank you.

Comments to the motion. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I support this motion. I think that this decision that was made regardless of whether Mr. Dent wants to argue the technicality of the financial administration manual or not. The point of having standing committees is so that they can review the plans of various departments before decisions are made, not after the fact. I disagree with the Minister that there is such urgency attached to this project, that after certain money was voted in the budget, in the House, that the Cabinet could then take this back, substantively alter what the plans were and I hear that they are sorry that they did not consult the committee, but forget about the timing, this is a major project. This is the largest project that this government is going to undertake, that we have committed to undertake in the life of this Assembly and for a project of this size to be modified or changed in any way without following the protocol that we have set out for consultation with committees to see what kind of other information is out there to receive input from other MLAs is not acceptable.

I do not think this motion is saying that this project is not going to go ahead. I think what we are saying is we would like it returned to the drawing board, consult through the appropriate avenues and present those compelling and convincing arguments that are the basis of the decision to the committee and to the MLAs. I do not think that is an unreasonable request. This is a major shift and maybe the building will deliver the same type of program, but this is still a major shift and this is a lot of money. I do not think that this decision being made without consultation is defendable in any way. I will be supporting this motion.

To the motion. Mr. Erasmus.

Mr. Kakfwi, you have a point of order?

Mr. Chairman, just to make the point of order. The Member is making a statement that is not factual. There is no intent to put the young offenders and the adult offenders in the same building. The intent is to have them share some of the facilities. The point of order is that the Member's misleading, inadvertently perhaps, but it is still misleading, and it should be corrected.

I do not believe that Mr. Kakfwi has a point of order. The replacement of the correctional facility and collocation of the young offenders facility are mentioned in the motion, so the Member does have the right to debate it in his comments. Mr. Erasmus.

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Comments to the motion. Mr. Henry.

To the motion. Mr. Ootes.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think there are various viewpoints on this issue, and while there may be certainly some truth to the fact that Cabinet had a responsibility to inform the Members and to inform the committee, I think if I look at this historically, these projects were approved last year. The youth facility was approved by Cabinet last year. We approved in the budget the renovation costs of $4 million. To me it is just good governance to have Cabinet be conscientious about what they are doing, and if it looks like there is an ability to do it better, then sometimes you have to take that step. In my opinion there is a certain amount to be gained by the process that Cabinet is following here. We are told that the option is there to save $5 million if the project is speeded up to four years over seven years. They could have taken the other avenue of saying, we really do need a new facility, but we will take seven years. The money does not change then. Nothing changes, other than the name. The name becomes new versus renovation.

With respect to the project itself, there should not be an argument. There is an argument as to the process that was used, but Cabinet repeatedly have issued a note to us, they have apologized, and I think in the interests of the project, we should proceed. I am not sure what it will accomplish if we go back to the drawing board on this and do all sorts of consultations, et cetera. I am of the opinion that the youth facility, as I say, was approved last year. I think there is rationale for putting it where it is, and I will go with that. I will be voting against this motion.

To the motion. Mr. Morin.

To the motion. Mr. Morin is asking for a recorded vote. Are you ready for the question? All those in favour, please stand.

All those against the motion, please stand.

All those abstaining from the motion? The results of the motion are four in favour, eight against, no abstentions. The motion is defeated. We are under Justice capital, community justice and corrections, not previously authorized, -$2,737,887. Mrs. Groenewegen.

The Finance Minister, Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to refer that to the Minister of Justice.

The Minister of Justice, Mr. Kakfwi.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There is legislation that compels us to provide correctional facilities for adults and for young offenders. They are very clear and explicit, and there are facilities elsewhere in Canada that meet the requirements of the law in regard to the type of facilities that are provided and meet the requirement that the young offenders be treated and provide facilities and services separately from adults. It has been researched, and we have met with officials from other institutions that provide similar services and we are quite comfortable that it will be done in accordance to the requirements. Thank you.

Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, does the Minister know of any other place in Canada where they have collocated adult and young offenders facilities? Thank you.

Minister of Finance, Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe that the question was directed to the Minister of Justice.

Thank you, Mr. Minister, but to have order here, we will go through you, since it is your bill. Minister of Justice.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There are, as I said, other jurisdictions in Canada that provide facilities that have young offenders and adult offenders in the same general area. There is a requirement to make sure there is a separation so that there is no contact and minimal or zero visibility of each other. Yes, there are other facilities, sometimes in the very same building, of young offenders being brought into, for instance, the first floor with adults, women and men being on the second and third floor. They are fed from the same cooking facilities. They share the same gymnasium and recreational facilities sometimes, but they do not come within visual contact of each other. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Where?

Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will defer the answer to the Minister of Justice.

Minister is deferring the question to the Minister of Justice. Mr. Kakfwi.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We can provide the Member with details of the other institutions in Canada that have young offenders and adult offenders in the same buildings and in the same general geographic area that share facilities. Thank you.

Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I drive by the Yellowknife Correctional Centre on the way to work every day, and it presents a visual of something that looks very much like a jail. it has very high fences, I do not know how high, I would say probably 12 feet high chain-linked fence with double scrolls of barbed wire along the top of the fence. It looks very much like a prison. I have also seen young offenders facilities. You drive by them. Even secure custody young offenders facilities do not have the appearance or perception of a prison. These young offenders are children by definition. Under this new collocated plan that the government has come up with, will be taking children from the courthouse, I would assume, to a facility such as this with a locked gate, taking them into a facility like this. Has the department or the Minister considered the impact that this will have on children

who are sentenced under the Young Offenders Act? I think it would be anyone's understanding that certainly there must be a desire for rehabilitation and particularly with young people who are very impressionable. I would like to know if the department has considered the impact of taking children to such a facility? Thank you.

Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe the Minister of Justice would be better prepared to answer that question.

The Minister of Financing is deferring the question to the Minister of Justice. Mr. Kakfwi.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For a number of years now, the Department of Justice has had virtually no capital. It has virtually had no capital budget for a number of years because this legislature, in its wisdom, has allocated the meagre capital that it has had at its disposal to other priority items. This is the very first time we have capital allocated to build new correctional facility and/or to renovate. But the intent clearly is to provide better or new facilities to young and adult offenders. That is the functional intent of the money that has been allocated and the decisions that were made by Cabinet and FMB. We have had no program space, and there is what you would call a crisis in the correctional facilities of the North.

The adult facility in Yellowknife is considered substandard and inadequate. The young offenders facilities, obviously, are no longer acceptable, and we are compelled by the fire marshal's order to provide new facilities by July, 2001. We need program space for the adults, and we need program space for the young offenders. We need recreational facilities for the young offenders as well. Under the original plan to do renovations to the adult facility, it was going to take seven years and a new revised capital estimates of $35 million. The decisions at that time by Cabinet in June, 1998, and in September, 1998, there was no consultation, but the decisions were made. The decisions were made then. It is my view that in the interest of the inmates, the young offenders, and really that is our responsibility, my responsibility as a Minister and our responsibility as a Cabinet, to provide adequate services and facilities to those in our care, and those are incarcerated people, the young offenders, who are required by an order, to provide these facilities within a time frame.

It is my view that we are compelled, in the public interest, to proceed to quit revisiting decisions, implement the decisions made by Cabinet and FMB, which was started well over a year ago and that we go ahead with design, finalize the blueprints, give those out in whatever form we decide and start with site preparation and construction by the latter part of next year which should see the facilities hopefully being completed somewhere in the spring of 2001 so that we can have it occupied and functional by July, 2001. This is what we need to do. The Members should not forget that there is a facility that you have not mentioned once yet, the female young offenders facility, which was located in Inuvik, again by Cabinet in the spring of 1998. Nobody has put that into the picture. Cabinet has decided that decision would stay as well. In the interest of the public, I would say we are compelled to act. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Erasmus.

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I can deal with the financial part of the question, and that would be that the financing is proposed to be spread over four years rather than seven. The other questions the Member asks could better be answered by the Minister of Justice.

Thank you. Minister Kakfwi.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The general intent is to provide facilities in the same geographic area. They are not even visible by each other. To find a way within the parameters of legislation to have, for instance, the young offenders have access to a gymnasium and perhaps some other facilities that the adult offenders would also have access to, that is the intent. It may be what you would say is podular in design. It may be separate but connected. We have not drawn up the blueprints, but we will begin the design that will lead into blueprints.

If there is interest, we would be pleased to involve those MLAs that would have time to get off the campaign trail this fall to be involved in the design and planning of it. As the Minister, I will be in office until hopefully at least the latter part of December or January, so I can provide that. We can be involved in the work, and we will undertake to get into the design. The design is really the part that I think you would be interested in, so we would be quite happy to provide that to Members. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Erasmus.

Thank you. Mr. Kakfwi.

Madam Chairperson, we have to get into the business of designing what it is that we are willing to pay for. We have the money. We just have to do the work to design something that we want or pick a design that we want. I am offering to involve Members of the Legislature, along with myself, in that as I get information, to inform them of it. A most generous offer. I should note again that these were approved by the Legislature and by Cabinet well over a year ago. There was no idea at all of what these facilities would look like, but we went ahead anyway. As I say, if you are interested in knowing what the facilities are going to look like, I would be very pleased to keep you informed of it. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Erasmus.

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The Premier responded to a question from yourself, Madam Chairperson, about how capital projects are financed. Typically the government uses a variety of forms of financing from cash on hand to short-term borrowings to long-term borrowings, depending on what it takes to finance the operations of the government. In this situation, it had been proposed that to carry on with the plan as was first projected, we would have been spending $35 million. As things stand now, we will be spending $30 million, so in fact we have found a way to do this less expensively than we might otherwise have done. The government typically chooses the best way to finance a project by what its needs are at any given time. The government does borrow money. In fact, when I became Minister of Finance, we were some $40 million in debt in short-term notes. I believe that figure is probably much reduced by now, but it all has to do with how our finances, our revenues flow. We do often borrow money..

Thank you. I have Mr. Morin and Mr. Krutko. Mr. Morin.

When we are speaking, Members, we should refrain from speaking directly to the Minister we are talking about. We should refer to them as second, not in first. You would have to say he because you will be speaking through the Chair. I just wanted to remind Members of that, refrain from speaking directly to the Minister. Thank you. Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Mr. Morin. Your ten minutes is up. I will move on now to Mr. Krutko and we will return to you again if you have further comments, at the discretion of the Chair. Mr. Dent.

Madam Chairperson, I would like an opportunity to respond to some of Mr. Morin's comments please?

Thank you. I am sorry that I overlooked giving you that opportunity, Mr. Dent. I was not viewing them as questions more as comments. Please feel free to do that. Mr. Dent.

I agree that they were more comments than questions, Madam Chairperson, but I do take offence to being accused of slipping and sliding. The Member will probably be aware that in September, 1998, FMB approved the Department of Justice's submission for funding to support a comprehensive plan for community justice and corrections in response to the Evans Report. That plan identified the need to significantly expand the Yellowknife Correctional Centre to deal with serious overcrowding and lack of programming facilities. When he says that the scope of the program has changed, he is wrong. The scope of the project has not changed. I am sorry, but his definition of scope and mine are obviously different. I would argue that historically, this government is, this Assembly and all the Members of this Cabinet and previous Members, have made similar changes and they have always been considered as not changing the scope of the project.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, just getting back to the Main Estimates, Department of Justice, it clearly states that the Government of the Northwest Territories undertake a Public Private Partners initiatives to increase involvement in public facilities under the P3 approach. These projects that I am talking about on the P3 are in the budget. It is a female young offenders facility in Inuvik, and it is supposed to be completed in January, 2001, of $4.762 million. Also in that, there is a male young offenders facility located in Yellowknife be completed January, 2001, at a cost of $6.332 million. These are P3's. That is how it was explained to us, and that is how we approved it in the budget.

Also the nice little pretty handbook here that the Minister publicly got printed and given to the public to read, also in there it clearly states that two new young offenders facilities are also in the planning stages, a 24-bed male facility in Yellowknife and a 12-bed facility for females in Inuvik. Those two projects were among the seven pilot projects currently being planned through the government's Public Private Partners Initiatives. That is a P3 initiative the way I understand it in the budget. Now you are telling us you are going to take these projects, along with the YCC initiative and change the scope of the P3 to now go for a new facility. Is that what the plan is now to take these out of the P3 frame and basically build them through one facility in a new contracting process?

Thank you Mr. Krutko. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. It is our intent to take the Yellowknife facility out of the P3 process, and there are a couple of reasons for that. From what I understand, the project had always been proposed for a lot adjacent to the correctional centre, but the consultants who were looking at some of the initial design work for YCC, suggested that it was already being planned for close to that centre. If it were set so that it could share some of the facilities, there was probably room for savings of over a million dollars in capital costs and $250,000 or $260,000 in ongoing operations and maintenance. The other reason we had to consider was timing. We have been finding, as we are fairly new in the P3 process, it is taking us quite some time to work through a lot of the kinks and to get projects on the ground. Given the fact that we must have this facility up and running very quickly, there was some concern about whether or not, in addition to the capital savings, if we left it as a P3 project, we could actually achieve its conclusion in the time frame that we have. At this point, there has been no change in the status of the Inuvik facility.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. In regards to the whole matter of keeping the inmates separate and whatnot, I do not feel comfortable with having young offenders housed in the same facility as adults. In regards to the Young Offenders Act, under subsection 28(4), it says subject to section 30, a young person who is committed to custody under Section 20(j), shall be held separate and apart from any adults. What does that mean to you, Mr. Minister?

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I understand that mean that there can be no contact between adult and young incarcerated people. It means that they must be separated visually and orally so that there is absolutely no contact between them.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Kakfwi.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. In response to provide additional information to Mr. Krutko, one of the urgent requirements we had is to provide remand facilities that are adequate for young offenders. Presently, we put young offenders, for instance, in the Inuvik jail and Yellowknife. They are the same jail facilities, holding cells in the same area as adults. We have no remand capacity whatsoever. It is urgent that we have that provided to young offenders, for female offenders and for adult offenders. I think it is important to point that out to the Member. There is some urgency to proceed with facilities, for providing facilities, adequate facilities, not only for the adults but also for the young offenders. A remand facility right now is required urgently. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Krutko.

My interpretation of what you mean by separate. Separate to me means a separate building altogether. Apart means there has to be a distance between point A and point B. I believe that I supported these initiatives with the understanding that these will be two separate projects. There will be funding there for the renovation of the YCC correctional facility and there will be two buildings built in Inuvik and Yellowknife. One, to house the female young offenders and one to house the male offenders. Those were two separate projects.

You talk about the facility here in Yellowknife and where you want to put the male facility in YCC, but then you use the argument, well, if we do that, they are going to have a gymnasium and all these other things. What about the female facility in Inuvik? Do they also get a gymnasium or do they also get a bigger kitchen area? What is the difference between a male and female young offender? Are we treating one differently than the other?

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The facilities were always planned to be located adjacent to one another. It comes down to a question of whether or not we can, with a building that is not physically separated, guarantee physical separation of certain inmates. I have no reason to believe that we could not. In terms of what is going to be included in the facilities in the Inuvik centre, I would have to refer that part to the Minister of Justice.

Thank you. Mr. Kakfwi.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. It is our intent, and I want to assure Mr. Krutko, that we will build and provide these facilities in full accordance with the legislative requirements for young offenders and also for adult offenders. We will do that. We are not going to go by his definition of what separate means. We will go by what the legal definition is because that is what we are required to do, much the same way as we will go by the building code. Not his building code, but the official building code, and we will go by the official definitions contained in there.

The Cabinet made a decision. There was no consultation about where to put the young female offenders' facility but it was decided by Cabinet last year to put it in Inuvik. That is the decision. I revisited that and it is my view that the decision, because again with the time constraints, it would be cheaper to put it in Hay River. It would be cheaper to put it in Fort Smith. It would be even cheaper to put it in Yellowknife. There is no difficulty whatsoever to do that. The decision of Cabinet at that time, with no consultation as I recall, was to place it in Inuvik. In my view, that is where it is going to stay and we will see what we can do to make sure that they have access to gymnasiums, those sort of things. The decision clearly is to locate it in Inuvik. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Krutko's time is up and I am going to call a 15 minute break before we proceed with any other speakers. Thank you.

-Break

I call the committee

back to order. The Department of Justice, capital, community justice and corrections, not previously authorized, -$2,730,887. Before we took the break, I had Mr. Morin. Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Mr. Morin. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, the project as it was presented would have involved renovating the 4,000 square metres that presently exist and increasing it to 10,600 square metres of total space. It would have meant that substantially the project was new construction more than renovation. There was some renovation and enhancement. Perhaps there is not a clear understanding that part of the enhancement was a significant amount of new construction. I am talking just about YCC. The project as presented was, as I say, to renovate sections of the existing 4,000 square metres and add enough new space so we would wind up with 10,600 square metres in total.

With the level of planning that was done at the time and the estimate of $28.3 million was made, there was a sense that the project could be done for that amount. By May the department had come back and said that their consultant advised it would take over seven years to do what had been proposed for YCC and that it would now cost $35 million. FSC said that if you can shorten the time frame, forget about trying to renovate the 4,000 square metres, just get rid of it and build it all new, would probably cost only $30 million. They subsequently have said that rather than locating the young offenders facility on land adjacent to YCC, you could put them close enough together so they can share certain parts of the facilities, while still maintaining total separation, there are further savings of, I believe $6.4 million. They also identified some ongoing operations and maintenance savings from that collocation.

That, Madam Chairperson, outlines the process. We have gone from a situation where we were proposing to renovate the existing 4,000 square metres, add 6,600 square metres to YCC and a separate stand-alone facility to bring them together. The total savings are substantial if we can do it in the manner proposed. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Mr. Morin. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I believe that you need to keep the two initiatives separate. On YCC, I believe that the architects recommended that it looked like it would be cheaper to build new rather than trying to renovate the 40 percent first proposed. They said that instead of spending $35 million over seven years, a new facility built over a shorter time period would be estimated at $30 million. They also suggested further savings could be achieved by sharing the planned services, if that was possible, between the YCC and the young offenders facility.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Mr. Morin. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I would expect that would be the people in Justice, so maybe I could refer to the Minister of Justice to respond.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Kakfwi.

Madam Chairperson, the adult facility that we provide is designed to meet with the requirements of legislation, the same as the young offenders facility and the architects that we work with have sufficient expertise to cost out how much it would cost us to build facilities based on how many inmates we propose to take care of so we work with our officials and DPW and architects. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Mr. Morin. I will refer that question to Mr. Kakfwi.

Madame Chairperson. The time to have considered these types of questions was a year and a half ago when there was a lot of time to be creative, innovative and open to locating these facilities and to look at every possible design. That time is long gone. We have very little time left to meet the requirements of the inmates and the young offenders. The decisions have been made and it is unfortunate that early on in the spring and summer of 1998, government did not consult the way we are being told it should have been consulting, but the opportunity is long gone and it is time now to move on, get on to designing these. As I said, if this Member wants to help us be creative and involve every possible person in the design of these facilities I am open to it. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Morin, that ten minutes is up. I had two people on my list when we took the break. Mr. Erasmus and Mr. Krutko, I believe. I do not remember which order they were in so, Mr. Erasmus.

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Kakfwi.

Madam Chairperson, perhaps the Member could shorten his questions to get it clear.

Mr. Erasmus.

Thank you. Mr. Kakfwi.

The preamble and the inquiry. Thank you.

Mr. Erasmus.

Thank you. Mr. Kakfwi.

Madam Chairperson, we are going to build a young offenders facility for young male offenders. Instead of renovating the old Yellowknife Correctional Institute, we are going to build a new building. We believe that, in discussions with DPW, our officials, and our consultants, that we can build the two facilities in such a manner that they can be close together, whether they would be actually physically linked to each other or not. We will get into detailed planning of it very shortly. As I said, there is no actual design made yet, but we will proceed very shortly to do that. Members that wish to see the plans as we proceed will be welcome to have that information provided to them. That is what I have said yesterday and I think the day before. Thank you.