Thank you. Clearly, I am speaking of only, I guess, what the Minister would look at as an avoidable issue. Volume issues, recruitment issues, these kinds of things certainly will be treated differently, I am sure, by the department.

I think that it is going to be important that after this operational review takes place and we have some information and we discover there are avoidable issues, that the department is firm and sends a message to those boards that are responsible and do manage properly that that is the goal here. Boards who are unable to manage properly should not simply just be given the money and bailed out. I really do not want to see Stanton come forward with a deficit recovery plan and be the only board coming forward with a recovery plan, or the only board forced to make cuts. If it is not going to happen across the board equally and fairly for all the boards, then I feel that this is a real problem.

Some boards should not suffer so other boards can mismanage. This is the same concern that I had with the municipalities. Just for the record, I would like to state that here. Thank you.

Mr. Handley.

Mr. Chairman, I want to assure you that all of the boards will be treated equally. If they do not come forward with debt recovery plans, then we will have to take other action.

As long as I can remember, the boards and the Department of Health will come forward with supplementary money and expect that we are not going to find all we need this year through these debt recovery plans. They are probably under funded to some extent, but we have to be fair to all of them, and we will be fair to them all.

Mr. Dent.

Listening to some of the questions and answers this evening, I wonder about this approach. We have heard forced growth alone is adding $15 million a year to the budget for health. Is there really an expectation that we are going to find, I understand that there is $3 million we need to find, for the deficits that were run by boards to the end of March 2000?

So are we really going to find that $3 million through these operational reviews? Or is it more likely that we are going to, if we are not prepared to fund the operations of the hospital boards, is it more likely that we are going to find that we are going to have to start cutting services?

The question I have is, rather than piecemealing this, why do we not approach this by saying the boards are running deficits now, if they are providing the services we expect, if they are meeting the standard of service? The Minister has said that there is an expectation, no matter what happens in their deficit recovery plans, that the boards are going to have to meet those standards of service.

Why not provide the funding that is necessary to bring the boards out of deficit. Use the results from the operational review to cause corrections where necessary, but recognize if all you are going to put into the program of health is $7 million when forced growth is $15 million, that you are in fact talking about changing the standard of program? Let us discuss where those standards should change, rather than trying to force boards to do the impossible.

Mr. Handley.

Mr. Chairman, I am not so sure that we have to talk about changing standards. If we did get into that discussion, what the cost would be of changing those standards, we are not at that point yet. We need to have the operational audits completed in order to better understand what is driving these costs. Based on that, we will then treat all of the boards fairly based on their operational plans. If they do not come forward with operational plans, then we have to deal with that situation as well.

For the time being, we have to make decisions and come forward with the best information that we have, which is what we are doing today.

Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will just say for the record, I find it hard to believe that we are going to find $2.5 million in these operational audits that we are going to be able to avoid on an annual basis, going back. With deficit recovery plans, you are probably talking about a range of $5 million out of the system from boards in the next three years in order to get to a balanced situation and then carrying forward.

I find it very difficult to believe that we are going to find that level of savings. I guess we will have to just watch. I am not yet convinced that this is the right approach. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Handley.

Mr. Chairman, that is exactly the reason we are doing the audits. Mr. Dent may be right. We do not know that. That is why we have to do the audits.

Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we have heard much on this issue and I agree with a lot of what Mr. Dent was just stating. One thing I see here is that I am aware, for example, the Inuvik Regional Health and Social Services Board is also in a deficit position. These plans are going out, these audits are being done to see what needs to be done, if anything can be done.

Meanwhile, this one board is getting a $500,000 bail out. Why is it not being done with other boards? Why is the same action not being taken?

Mr. Handley.

Mr. Chairman, the reason that has happened is because the one board has submitted information that enables us to make a reasonable judgement on it. The other boards have not submitted that information yet. When we get the information from those boards we will be in a much better position to judge what is causing their increased costs and their deficits. We need that information. Without it we cannot even begin to guess.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That is what I am saying. These audits are being done and with those audits we will be able to review what can be done, and maybe in some situations as Mr. Dent said, maybe not much can be done except to increase the funding allocation. In this situation, you have found enough information to provide one board with some money. I would like to thank the Minister for his response to my question because I will be meeting with the Inuvik Regional Health and Social Services Board next week in Inuvik and I will put that to them. Stating that they had not received funds to help them with their deficit information because they were lacking information. We will see what response we can get from them. Thank you.

Minister responsible for Finance.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, Mr. Chairman, exactly. If we can get the debt recovery plans and the information from the boards and complete the operational audits, we will then be in a much better position to determine what is driving these costs and what measures can be taken to control them.

We are on Health and Social Services, operation expenditures, primary and acute care programs, $1,035,000.

Not previously authorized, $1,035,000.

Total department, $4,444,000, not previously authorized.