Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the committee wishes to review Bill 1, Committee Report 1-14(3), Committee Report 2-14(3), Committee Report 3-14(3) concurrently, and continue with the Department of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Does the committee agree?

Thank you. We will take a short break, and resume in ten minutes.

-- Break

I would like to call the committee back to order. We are reviewing the Main Estimates, 2000-2001, for the Department of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development. Mr. Handley, would you like to bring in any witnesses?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, Mr. Chairman, I would.

Does the committee agree?

Would the Sergeant-at-Arms please escort the witnesses in?

Mr. Handley, when we broke yesterday, Mr. Braden had asked a question. Are you prepared to answer that question at this time?

Yes, Mr. Chairman, I am prepared to answer the question. My witnesses are here somewhere. They are coming. Mr. Chairman, the question, as I recall, was what were we doing to attract employees working at the mine to live in the North. I suppose in the same way to have Northerners take on more jobs.

Mr. Chairman, there are a number of things we are doing. I think the last government started doing a lot, where we had the $10,000 grant for housing to encourage people to move North. I think that had some success.

We have been fairly active as a government and municipal governments in marketing the Northwest Territories as a good place to live and be. I saw advertising at the Meet the North Conference last year. I see advertising at Ekati Mine and other places to say this is a good place.

The City of Yellowknife and I believe other communities have either subsidized or helped people to come up and do familiarization of the North, bring their families up so they can understand it. The companies themselves have done a fair bit of providing northern allowances to people who are not travelling. I believe they have also encouraged families to come up. They have moved their northern management here. They are doing some and we encourage them to continue with that.

We have signed socio-economic agreements with both BHP and Diavik, that require them to meet some targets in terms of the percentage of northern workers. There are a fair number of initiatives we have undertaken to encourage and have people move to and live in the North. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Before I go back to Mr. Braden, would you please introduce your witnesses for the record?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, with me today is Mr. Bob McLeod, deputy minister for the Department of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development, and Mr. Jim Kennedy, director of corporate services for the Department of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With the Minister's answer, regarding the socio-economic and benefit agreements negotiated and under negotiation with companies, could the Minister give the committee some idea of how those targets are being met, specific to residency? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Handley.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the only mine that is operating right now is BHP. The target for northern employees is 70 percent, 50 percent of which is to be aboriginal. On both counts, BHP is presently exceeding the targets that were set in the socio-economic agreement.

The agreement with Diavik will come into effect during the construction stage. As soon as they get their water license, this will start to kick in as soon as they begin construction. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Again referring to the Minister's opening comments yesterday, there was a discussion of the parks and tourism division. The second priority of the department is the development of the tourism strategy. I am aware of at least two similar documents, one of which is a collection of, from my understanding, some knowledge, experience and suggestions that have come up from the department, but not mandated specifically towards a tourism strategy.

The second document, which I understand we are going to see next week sometime, is the report of the economic strategy panel.

I wanted to ask the Minister what kind of approach or design does the department have in mind in terms of building this strategy in consultation with the industry? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Handley.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have made a commitment to complete a strategy by the end of the calendar year. We have been doing some work in the department. As I mentioned before, in talking with some of the Northwest Territories Tourism Association people, they have been doing some work as well.

We intend to move toward a comprehensive strategy. The document we have prepared, the drafts and so on, have been done in consultation with the tourism associations, as well as the chambers of commerce, some regional tourism people, and so on. The intention is, as we move along, to do this cooperatively as we have done with other strategies, like the protected areas strategy, where we bring everybody in, including aboriginal governments and so on.

It will very much be a collaborative effort. The target for completing it is the end of the calendar year.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. One other area I would like to explore is the area of small business development, specifically to training and support for the various skills that are involved in running a small business.

Looking at the department's plans, something I do not see in there is anything directed to this kind of support for the small business community. There may be something in Education, Culture and Employment that covers this, but what I have in mind, Mr. Chairman, is not something that would be a business administration matter or things of this nature that might be offered through our college system. It would be small-scale, easily delivered programs on a community scale that can assist small businesses in areas such as cash-flow management, personnel and recruiting, marketing, bookkeeping...the nuts and bolts, Mr. Chairman, of running a small business.

What kind of delivery mechanism do we have in the North, with the department or otherwise, that can help small businesses through these day to day chores? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Handley.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we have a number of staff in each of the regions whose responsibility is economic development support. We also have the community economic development services section in headquarters. In addition to that, there are a number of economic development officers in the regions. Some of them report to us. Some of them work for municipal governments or the band councils.

The kind of support the Member is referring to is really important to the small businesses. Because it is not structured courses or anything, which would be the responsibility of Education, Culture and Employment, we intend to do it at the regional or at the community level. We do it on an as-needed basis and try to respond. I think it works quite well in some areas. Maybe in other areas, not as well as the business would like.

We also have to be very careful that we do not get into interfering in a private businessman's way of operating. It is his business. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A suggestion that these courses can, and I think would, be very well subscribed to if they were presented on a proactive basis, with the idea that they are delivered at convenient times and places at a community and regional level.

I think all too often small businesses have a tendency, and I speak from a former life as a small business person, that there is a tendency to wait until it is too late, until difficulties come up or people ask for help. The government could be providing a good service to the small business community if it was proactive and took a lead in delivering this kind of service. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Handley.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, Mr. Chairman, I take the Member's advice. We try to do that to the best of our ability. I guess we just have to keep working at it to get it to the stage where everybody is satisfied. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. The Chair recognizes Mr. Bell.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a few questions I would like to ask Mr. Handley, and a few points I would like to make. Initially, I would like to start off and refer a bit to the tourism strategy that is in the works. I believe we really have to get going in this area and have an overall look at the tourism industry and see what kinds of things we can do to stimulate growth in this area. I think it is critical for diversifying the economy.

Mr. Handley has discussed several initiatives he feels are going to be used to promote tourism. One thing I would like to discuss is a constituent's concern, which was the lack of a presence at Expo. The committee has also made mention of this, that we did not attend Expo 2000. I believe the department's response, both to the committee and to me, was that it was deemed that this was going to be too expensive and we were not going to get the best bang for our buck in this area. They had determined they could get better mileage from other venues and better mileage from attending other events in other capacities, given their limited means and budget.

They also explained to me that they had looked carefully at Expo, costed out what they figured it would take to attend, and deemed it was not cost-effective. On one hand, I am disappointed that we did not have a presence at Expo, but I am glad to hear that they actually take the time to weigh out some of these things and do cost benefit analysis. I think that is something that is often lacking in other departments in other areas. I am wondering if the Minister can talk a little bit about some of the other things he is proposing to do internationally in lack of attendance at Expo to try to stimulate tourism.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Mr. Handley.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Taking part at Expo was going to be incredibly expensive for us. A minimum contribution to be a partner with the federal government is $250,000. Prices are really inflated during these events, so even renting a large room, along with the supportive services that come with it for a period of time, would be $50,000 a day. This is just out of our league. In fact, very few provinces and none of the territories have pavilions there either. Things tend to get really exorbitant.

Expo '86, for example, cost this government $15 million. The Expo in Spain cost $4 million. We do not have that kind of money anymore. Even though we really want to promote tourism, is that the best use of our money?

I might add, Mr. Chairman, that myself and the deputy minister, Bob McLeod, are going to Antwerp in July, where I am making a speech at a diamond conference and we are going to take the opportunity to go over to Expo, meet with the commissioner and see if there is a way of us participating without having to pay these high costs. It may be possible that we can do something.

The Expo event goes on until November, so we have not lost the whole opportunity if we want to take part. Generally speaking, there are more cost effective ways for us to use our limited money than the cost of this event. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Bell.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Earlier, I questioned the Minister about the oil and gas industry and the kinds of spin-off benefits that might be available for Northerners, northern businesses, and for northern manufacturers. We have heard the Minister comment that not every community in the Northwest Territories is going to have a pipeline running through it so it is important to look to other things like tourism to stimulate some of the smaller economies, some of the economies that are not close to the potential pipeline development.

I would like to suggest that we look to all communities of the Northwest Territories for possible development, possible spin-off business and jobs that could be created in the oil and gas industry. I think there are certainly manufacturing opportunities to be had. I suppose it probably benefits the larger communities like Yellowknife and especially Hay River. I think that these are some of the things that we need to look at and not just consider. That unless you are within the immediate proximity of a pipeline, you are not going to receive any benefit. So I really think it is important that we look at some of the opportunities that might come out of this, take a proactive approach, and do something early.

In the diamond industry, I think the secondary value-added cutting and polishing, now we are seeing a grading facility. I think, in hindsight, we almost missed the boat on that and give the department credit. They did play catch up and they did get in on the ground floor, but I think it was close and I would like to make sure that the department is paying attention in oil and gas, because I think we are going to have one big shot at this thing. I hope we do not miss it. I think there will be a flurry of activity and if we are not up to speed it will be easy for companies doing the work in the Territories to say listen, you simply do not have the businesses that can participate. You do not have the people to do the work. We have got to go south. We need this development to go ahead. As they say, things are going to move at the speed of business, so I think that it is important that the department be ready to help Northerners and northern businesses in all areas of the Territories take advantage of what is sure to be a boom.

In that area, we have seen socio-economic agreements with diamond companies. I would like to ask the Minister if we will have the same kinds of agreements in place with pipeline companies to ensure that a certain percentage is a percentage of Northerners, a certain percentage of aboriginals are hired and also that northern businesses are utilized to the fullest extent possible. Will we be in a position to negotiate and ensure that we look after Northerners' interests first?

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Mr. Handley.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The oil and gas business is a little more complex and more difficult to identify who we would have the arrangements with. But certainly we intend to support, first of all, the aboriginal leaders and their request to have an equity position in a pipeline. So that kind of arrangement will certainly result in them owning some of it and, hopefully, them hiring their own people from the community. So that would help. So we support that.

Second is, as I mentioned earlier today with regard to support services, whether it is oil and gas well services, providing materials, equipment, so on. We support that and that should mean northern jobs as well.

And then the third area, to provide jobs in the actual construction of pipelines, exploration for gas and oil and so on. Then our intention is to, where we can, enter into socio-economic agreements, for example, with a pipeline company and work closely with both DIAND and the National Energy Board to make sure that the socio-economic agreements have some teeth to them. I appreciate the Member's suggestions. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Bell.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to say that I do recognize that it is slightly more complicated with the oil and gas industry than it has been in the diamond industry. We may not be able to arrive at the same kind of formal socio-economic agreements that we have seen in the diamond industry. But I hope that the Minister and the Premier will continue to lobby the pipeline companies, lobby the oil and gas companies and say, listen if you want to make this thing go ahead and you want to make this thing go ahead quickly, it is going to require partnership with Northerners.

It is going to require doing everything in your power to use northern labour, northern manufacturers, northern businesses and if we cannot get formal socio-economic agreements...I hope it is made at least clear to them that things will go a lot more smoothly if they include us in the process.

The last thing I would like to ask the Minister about is the Non-Renewable Resource Strategy that his department has spent a lot of time on and has been consulting, I think quite heavily, with the federal government, with Martin and with the Minister of DIAND.

We saw the Minister sort of roll this out for the first time at the intergovernmental forum in Hay River and I think he felt it was key to get the feedback and the participation of all the aboriginal groups in the strategy so that there was some buy-in and there was ownership. I thought that was a fundamental and key first step.

But I would like to ask the Minister, what kind of response he has been getting, not so much from the federal government at this point, but from some of the other aboriginal groups and aboriginal leaders with regards to the Non-Renewable Resource Strategy?

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Mr. Handley.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The two co-chairs for the Economic Devolvement Strategy report that, I think, was given out to the chair of GED yesterday, are both aboriginal leaders, Richard Nerysoo, and Darrell Bealieau. We have other aboriginal people who are involved in the preparation of that strategy. Richard Nerysoo, in particular, accompanied some of our people to Ottawa, took part in a presentation, and spoke on behalf of all aboriginal people very strongly in support of it.

I have not received as much feedback as I, ideally, had hoped for from chiefs and other leaders, but I think given the day to day business that they are involved in and their busy schedules, I am not surprised. But no one has said the strategy is wrong. Absolutely no one has said that. Any comments I have heard have been supportive, even though some people may want a little bit more of this or that in it. It has been good support. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. I have next on my list Mr. Miltenberger, however in fairness everybody, as he has spoken yesterday already, I will recognize Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, in regard to this department, one of the problem areas that I have noted going through is the number of vacancies within this department. I believe we counted somewhere in the area of, I believe it was 48.

One of the concerns I have because of that is with the number of vacancies, the amount of people we have left within the department, especially when it comes to developing or collecting data. For myself, I was trying to get data and information on caribou in the Northwest Territories, in regard to the different caribou herds and species. There was very little information collected, especially from aboriginal groups. The only group that had statistics was the Inuvialuit and people from the Eastern Arctic that have done studies on the different Inuit people when they collected data on caribou.

But yet, in the western Territory, there is very little data collected in regard to use of the herd and also the consumption of the species and yet, we are looking at being involved in large scale developments; diamond mines, and now we are looking into the oil and gas.

I think that if this government is going to take a role in the process of the environmental assessment screening process, when the regulatory decisions are made on exactly which route is going to be taken and also what rivers are going to be crossed or the effects that it may have on the environment, we have to have the data to make sound decisions.

I think, as a government, we have taken over the responsibility of wildlife and forestry from the federal government, but yet when it comes to having that information and research available, it is very lacking.

So I think it is critical that, with the number of vacancies we have within the government and not having the bodies there to do a lot of this work, that we are falling behind. I think it is essential that the department makes an attempt to fill these vacancies but also ensure that we have the data, the information that is going to be needed.

We are going through a review of the Wildlife Act sometime within the next year or so. There again there has to be data put forth in regard to usage of the species by the different groups, the question about rights that flow from land claim agreements and also the question about treaty rights.

So this is essential for myself. Reviewing the Department of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development that is one area where I feel we have to do more and make an attempt to ensure we have the people in place to do this research and also make sure we have it compiled quickly so that we have it available for ourselves, so when we do make presentations on behalf of the people of the Northwest Territories, we have that information available. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Handley.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I will just say that our vacancy rate is not as high as it would appear at first because we have a number of seasonal positions.

For example, in the May vacancy report we had 34 full-time vacant positions and the other 32, when the data was pulled together, were seasonal positions, so a lot of those have been filled. Having 32, 34 about that number, out of a total compliment of 420 fulltime positions, is probably not out of line because you always expect to have eight, nine, or ten percent turnover.

On the other issue the Member raises though, I agree 100 percent with the need of having some really thorough baseline data collected and information available on our wildlife and natural environment, so we need to do that. Oil and gas is quickly catching up to us, or speeding up in the North. The department is aware of the need for it.

We are doing a review within the department of our programs and services to figure out how we can identify the resources, human and dollars, to be able to achieve what the Member is recommending we do. So we are in agreement on that. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the other area that I have raised concerns with the Minister and also with the department is the whole area of taking advantage of the oil and gas industry, especially in my riding. I would like to state that, from what we have seen from the diamond industry, there has been a lot of emphasis put in regard to making funds available on the secondary industry, working with the Department of Education in ensuring that the training programs are there for people to access those jobs. But also making sure that there is money available for different special projects.

We have $1.6 million identified for diamond projects, but yet there is nothing in the budget for oil and gas projects, so that we can assist groups like the Inuvialuit with the gas project that may look at accessing gas from the pipeline that may come forth to offset the cost of diesel fuel converting over to natural gas. So these types of things have to be built into the budget and I, for one, would like to see another item added, called oil and gas projects, so it is not specifically related to the control or the management of overseeing oil and gas in the Northwest Territories.

But having monies available, similar to the diamond industry, in the range of $1.6 million to $2 million, so that we can also take advantage of that particular industry.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Handley.

Mr. Chairman, I will just address that we are, as a government, prepared to give the same consideration to oil and gas as we have to the diamond industry. We have a number of options for people who need support and that could be through the BCC, it could be through our regional economic development officers, it could be through special arrangements like we have done on loan guarantees and so on for diamonds. There is absolutely no preference given to diamonds over oil and gas or anything like that.

We are open to supporting any good, viable ventures that come forward or proposals. Our people will work with entrepreneurs who want to do this.

The other side, as well, is we are spending a considerable amount of money right now on things like supporting the Aboriginal Pipeline Group. We have committed to paying a third of the costs for this meeting next week in Fort Simpson. Those are things that really are not our responsibility. It should be DIAND because they are the ones who get the benefit out of it. But for the sake of getting our people to have some equity and some jobs, we have to do it. We are making that investment. We will continue that. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Another area I have concerns with is regarding the economic development sector and the service we provide in that area. We have some $695,000 for community economic development officers. I have seen the programs in the communities. The money they get is not sufficient for the cost of living. Trying to attract someone with a background in economic development and trying to access dollars for economic development projects is hard. You cannot attract people for that amount of money and live in an isolated community with the cost of living.

I feel we have to work closer with the different economic development areas we have. We have the Northwest Territories Business Credit Corporation, the Northwest Territories Development Corporation, we have aboriginal corporations in place now. We have to somehow consolidate all of these dollars we have and make better use of them and streamline those dollars so they go to specific regions and areas.

By having more access to capital, we are able to do more. Without having the groups consolidate themselves into one agency or organization to work along with other institutions, we have to have the ability to move some of this money around. A lot of money has been spent through the Northwest Territories Business Credit Corporation and also the Development Corporation in the southern part of the Northwest Territories - Yellowknife, Hay River - those areas in which a lot of those loans were given out.

When it comes to the northern part of the Northwest Territories, or even the communities, they have had very little access to those dollars. In order for any community to get ahead, we need access to capital. I feel there has to be a better way of streamlining this money so communities and regions are able to access this capital.

I would like to ask the Minister if he would consider looking at consolidating these different economic strategies so we can streamline them and be more accountable to the people it is supposed to serve by making sure there are capital dollars there for the business community to access. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Handley.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we are committed to streamlining our operations in terms of the various channels people have for loans and grants, contributions, assistance with business advice, and so on. We are already doing that. That is part of our plan this year, to get on with it.

In terms of how long it is going to take, we are already starting to try to bring the Development Corporation and BCC closer together. The whole exercise would probably take us into the next fiscal year to complete. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. At this time, the Chair would like to recognize some people in the gallery. We have a number of deputy ministers of health who are here in Yellowknife. They have been here since Wednesday on business meetings. I would like to recognize David Dodge, Ron Hinkle, Pierre Holgreaunu, Paula Burton, Ann McFarlane, Gladys Heets, Debra Fry, Thomas Word, and Carol-Anne Duffy.

-- Applause

Welcome to Yellowknife and to the Legislative Assembly. The Chair would now like to recognize Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I will take advantage of your largess and leap in here before you change your mind, since Mr. Dent now wants to speak.

I have two questions I would like to ask the Minister. The first one, since this is the first budget of the 14th Assembly, and we have the departments before us asking for $75 million. We spent quite a few weeks with business plans, targets, plans and programming issues. Given the fact that it was stated by the Premier in this House that there is no clear, measurable way by which to make this government, Ministers and deputy ministers accountable for not meeting targets, for my own clarity and peace of mind, I would like the Minister to explain accountability in his opinion as Minister with this department and the $75 million they are asking for. Are we just going through the motions and having to place our faith in the good nature of the Lord above when it comes to dealing with this issue in any kind of clear, measurable, accountable way? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. Handley.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, first of all, as the Minister of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development, I am responsible. I want to clear that up.

Secondly, Mr. Bob McLeod, as the deputy minister, is responsible for the management and administration of the department. He is accountable to me. Mr. McLeod enters into a contract with me in terms of what we are going to deliver as a department.

I heard very clearly the standing committee's recommendation in terms of having more measurable results. I will be going over the department's proposed targets and results to ensure we get specific so they are measurable and we will know whether or not we have good products and services for the $75 million. All I can do is assure you I will do my best to do that. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So it is clear, I intend to ask this question of every department that comes before this House. For clarification, the Minister is saying there are clear measurable ways in which you are prepared to be held accountable for, with the $75 million that is before this House?

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. Handley.

As part of the business planning process, every department, and this department, is asked to indicate targets and outcomes, goals and so on. All of those are built into the business plans. If in some cases, we find that the proposed results are not as measurable as they could be, we need to refine that. I will work very closely with my department to make sure we achieve what the committee and Ordinary Members are asking: having results that are measurable so you know whether or not we did a good job with the money available. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is good to hear that with the first department through the gate, that the Department of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development is going to be accountable.

I have a question about the energy strategy. I raised this in my general comments yesterday, and the Minister responded to the effect that while it is important, it should be something that was done later because you have other pressing issues on the table. I would like to raise the question again.

We had a briefing by the Energy Alliance, which I thought was very informative and enlightening for all of us. This is not a $30 million issue as the government initially indicated. It is worth somewhere in the neighbourhood of $230 million. That figure, I would submit, is growing as we speak with fuel prices going up.

There is a piece-meal effort being made that is un-coordinated, which is my concern. The four potential measures outlined by the Energy Alliance in their presentation were energy efficiency, energy supply options, Northwest Territories Greenhouse Gas Emissions Strategy, and a policy on regulatory framework.

Mr. Chairman, I want to make the point that the government has indicated they are doing the Energy Greenhouse Gas Strategy. I know the PUB is looking at the policy and regulatory framework of the Public Utilities Board. I know the Power Corporation is trying, in its own way, to deal with the energy issue as well. The government is struggling with petroleum products and the Housing Corporation, with its huge rising cost of utilities.

My concern is they are all going forward in an un-coordinated way. We are talking about a huge amount of money here. If we do not take the time now to set a process in place to come up with the board energy strategy that will link these pieces, we will end up in a month, two months or a year, with a host of initiatives that are not related, which no energy strategy will be able to link.

From a good business sense and practice, and for the good of the people in the Northwest Territories, we have to initiate this process. I would ask the Minister if he would be willing to commit to look at that. I think there is a role the Energy Alliance could play. Just about every deputy minister is on that particular board. It does not have to be done by the deputies or the government per se. They just have to get a process going that will report back.

I see this as a critical issue. The government is doing things in bits and pieces, but it is not linked. I would like the Minister to consider and respond whether he would be willing to look at this as a critical issue, considering the potential savings that are there and the rising costs we are currently faced with. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. Handley.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Department of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development was one of the departments instrumental in setting up the alliance. We do participate actively on it. We see the Energy Alliance as being the vehicle for coordinating our efforts in government with the Power Corporation, private sector, the Housing Corporation and so on.

We recognize the immensity of the problem, the amount of fuel that is used and so on. I agree with the Member's recognition. I will commit to doing that. However, given the limited number of people, I believe we only had seven staff in environmental protection to handle everything from hazardous waste to these issues. It is just a matter of where do we put our energies.

We are working on greenhouse gas, beverage container recycling, energy efficiency initiatives and so on. We will do everything we can to achieve what the Member is requesting. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Miltenberger.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to point out that if this is going to work, there has to be a public consultation process. It is not something I see being done internal to government alone with its staff. The Energy Alliance sees the responsibility of developing a strategy with the Government of the NWT. But that, I suggest, is just to set up the process, and let the Alliance point out, very clearly, the broad energy strategy is not in the works at this point, but the Alliance could provide advice and assistance.

So I will just ask the Minister the kind of process I have in mind is not going to be one just done by staff internal to the government. But if it is going to have credibility and buy-in from the public and the very many sectors affected by energy issues, it has to be something that has a public component,

The one in the Yukon, I know, took two years, but they set up a committee similar to the economic development strategy committee to do the work and come back with a product. So would the Minister consider looking at that in a very serious way and possibly ask the Energy Alliance to develop a working document for discussion? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. Handley.

I see the Energy Alliance as more than just providing advice and input. I see the Energy Alliance as being the vehicle. I hope we do not have to create another one. We want to work with the Energy Alliance because it represents a lot of other agencies besides our department.

I support it. I only hesitate in terms of the capacity we have in a department, but it is a high priority. We need to have it well coordinated. We need an overall strategy, but we also have some immediate things we have to continue on with: completion of the greenhouse strategy, beverage containers, all the other things I mentioned. So it is a matter of capacity, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. The chair recognizes Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to start off by congratulating the Minister for, in his opening remarks, committing as a priority to explore a revenue neutral beverage container recovery program. I heard about this several times in the past year, particularly around election time from constituents who thought that we should be doing something in this area and I did commit to them that I would do my best to encourage the government to follow up on it. So I would just like to compliment the Minister on taking that as a priority and encourage him to conclude the development of the program this year and ensure that we have one in place for next year.

One of the other points that the Minister talked about as a priority in his opening comments was the development of a tourism strategy for the Northwest Territories. I know, I think, the Minister has heard from a number of Members in this House already that we think this strategy is long overdue. I too think it is long overdue.

I really have to say that I am somewhat disappointed by the commitment that has been shown by the department to tourism. I think that if we really did have that commitment, while the cutbacks have been pretty broad through government, I would argue that over the past four or five years, the cuts to tourism have been disproportionate within this department in comparison to other areas.

So I do not think it is any surprise now when the Minister of Finance proposes a five percent hotel tax in order to get some money to market tourism, that some operators are going to come out in favour of that. They have been beaten down and ignored for so long that they are willing to grasp at anything, no matter how punishing to the industry to try and help out.

I really think that in a $75 million budget, finding $1 million, if that is what we are talking about in terms of net money, to more properly promote tourism to the Northwest Territories, to get the promotion back up to the level that it has been in the past, would be something that should be done within. I think that we should recognize the priority there and try and work from within, rather than looking only to be able to do it with money from outside.

One other sort of general comment that I would like to make is in economic development. I think that, certainly from the constituents who I know have worked with the department, there has been a feeling that they have been able to access the programs reasonably. So I would like to say that I congratulate the department for having a pretty good reputation among people who I know who have tried to access programs.

The department does seem to have been fairly responsive in that area. The one thing I would wonder about is whether or not there is a conscious decision when you are looking at economic development programs within the department to put a certain amount of money into the small capital projects as opposed to the larger ones.

The reason I ask that is that I think that we have seen in the past some tremendous successes with small programs where people could get $5,000 to $7,000 to help them bring their equipment up to a certain standard or to invest in some equipment that would get them into, perhaps not a real business, but an occupation that they might be able to undertake, whether that is fishing or trapping or something, that helps them become more self-reliant.

So perhaps if the Minister could advise, is there a clear distinction between the small capital programs and the larger programs? Do we maintain some funds so that there is always some money available for the smaller programs?

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Handley.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With regard to tourism, I share the Member's feeling that over the past years we have not paid enough attention to tourism. It has a tremendous potential.

When the responsibility for a large part of tourism was devolved out to the Northwest Territories Tourism Association, it was done with the expectation that there would be a partnership arrangement where the private sector would bring in 50 percent of the dollars and the government would provide 50 percent. That has not really happened. The industry just has not been able to do that.

I really believe in tourism we need to have that arrangement. I hope we can someday achieve that because I think it was a good objective to begin with.

The finding money from within...you know, we not only have to get to the level we were at, I think we have to get higher than that because we need to promote this more as an industry. So if, throughout the year, I could find additional dollars from within then certainly, there is a priority in the department when we do not have other things that are more pressing needs, then we need to put it into tourism, because it is a priority for me. I think it is too important of an industry.

With regard to the economic development programs, we do have small business grants that are specifically for small business, and I think they cap out at about $5,000, and there is a total of $287,000 within that category. We are also looking, because we do not have an EDA, we do not have a lot of money to make available in grants and loans and so on to small businesses. We are looking at the possibility of putting some sort of ceiling, even on the so called larger ones, of possibly $100,000 or so. Anything beyond that would have to be viewed differently, because the small business sector is a real driver within our economy.

We are trying to do it. I am hopeful that through the document, the common agenda, we can put a new argument to the federal government. Get us some EDA dollars to help this sector out because we are not doing nearly as much as the demand is out there. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I certainly welcome the Minister's commitment to put some extra money this year into tourism if possible, and I have no doubt that the operators will welcome that as well. However, I would point out that if it is not base money, and we are talking only about money that is extra this year, it creates the problem of proper planning and taking advantage of opportunities that may present themselves in an ongoing basis. So that is not the best way, sometimes, to manage your dollars, to only be able to fund it in the short term.

One other thing I was surprised to see no mention of in the Minister's opening comments as a priority, was work on the Northwest Territories Wildlife Act. Over the past year there has been extensive consultation undertaken on this act. Could the Minster outline for me, what the timetable is from this point on until when we expect to see a new act introduced in this legislature?

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Handley.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have gone out to consultation with an initial document on the identified issues in the Wildlife Act. That round of consultations has been, essentially, completed. The revision of the Wildlife Act is being sort of dove-tailed with the species at risk legislation. The two fit together. Both of them require a tremendous amount of consultation.

We are now doing a discussion paper, doing consultation and building a discussion paper as we move along with that. We anticipate having the discussion paper, which would largely take in recommendations and advice from various groups, ready to come to Cabinet in the spring of 2001. We would then go back out again for further consultation with the objective of having legislation into the Assembly by the fall of 2002.

But as everybody knows, it is a very complex process because we get involved with other legislation, including our tourism act, and other ones. There is certainly a lot of interest from land claim organizations, renewable resource councils, hunters and trappers associations, bands, Metis councils, so it is a very complex exercise.

We are aiming at fall of 2002 for legislation. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. The chair recognizes Mr. Nitah.

Thank you, Mr. Nitah. Mr. Handley.

I could read you the formal mandate but I could give that to the Member instead. Essentially, the mandate, though, is to provide support to businesses where the private sector either is not interested in going or just cannot afford to go because the business may not be viable on its own. But at the same time, with a modest amount of support, a business could be supported and provide jobs in the community.

So it is aimed at those communities where it is marginal.

A second part of the mandate is to assist new ventures that are being established or having difficulty in getting through those few first years. So the Development Corporation does get involved in various ventures in a partnership arrangement to help keep them viable.

Those would be the two main purposes. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Nitah.

Thank you, Mr. Nitah. Mr. Handley.

Generally, Mr. Chairman, the policy in entering into joint ventures is that the Development Corporation will take out preferred shares in a venture. It will do that, though most often where there is a likelihood that the venture will be able to buy back those preferred shares and, at some point, operate on its own again.

The Development Corporation does not want to enter into a long-term, forever arrangement with a joint venture that is never viable. So at some point, they have to assess whether or not this is really a joint venture or whether it should be looked at as a subsidiary. Subsidiaries are those cases where we do, with a modest investment, continue to subsidize where the private sector will not go.

Examples of those would be the Fort McPherson Tent Factory, where we have been in there a long time and supporting it as a subsidiary because of the employment it generates.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Nitah.

Thank you, Mr. Nitah. I would like to remind the Members that we are on general comments. We do not want to get right into the specifics of the departments. I will allow Mr. Handley to answer, if he wishes.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think some of the examples the Member was referring to are precisely the reason why we have Mr. Koe as president of the NWT Development Corporation. I am sure, with his board, they will make very responsible decisions. The 51 percent is a decision the board will make. They operate within a limited budget. I can tell you the NWT Development Corporation has changed its ways of operating considerably since Mr. Koe has been there.

I would be pleased to provide the information to the Member. I believe it is already included in the annual report and the corporate plans. I will check that. If it is not and there is more information the Member wants, I would be happy to provide it. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Nitah.

Thank you, Mr. Nitah. Mr. Handley.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I do not have Mr. Koe here with me, but I can check that and find out for the Member. I do not believe there is a policy that says it must be 51 percent. In fact, I know of ventures where the NWT Development Corporation holds shares where they do not have 51 percent. If it is a policy, it is a policy of the new board. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Nitah.

Thank you, Mr. Nitah. I do not think there was any question there. Would the Minister like to reply to those comments?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The only thing I could say, Mr. Chairman, is that I agree that government should not be involved in business where the private sector can handle it. I think the role of the Development Corporation, as I said earlier, is to assist new ventures where there is some likelihood that the venture is going to be able to stand on its own two feet and buy out the preferred shares. We are not, as a government or as a Development Corporation, in the business of competing in the private market. We should get ourselves out of that.

There are cases where, for a period of time, a venture does need some backing if it is not able to operate on its own within a period of time, and that differs from venture to venture, than it has to close its doors. We cannot stay in it forever. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. The Chair recognizes Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I have problems regarding projects or investments that we have made in communities. For example, the Fort McPherson Canvas Shop has been there since the late 1970's. It has been a problem with regard to marketing tents, tee-pees, canvas bags.

One thing I find awfully hard to accept is they are boycotted from selling their products at wholesale in the city of Yellowknife because of concerns from people that storefront operators come up here and sell stuff in their stores that were made in Taiwan or China, as artifacts made in the Northwest Territories which are replicas of aboriginal art, yet they are not aboriginal art.

We have a product which is made by aboriginal people, produced in the Northwest Territories by aboriginal people and yet there are these roadblocks we put in front of ourselves to promote our manufacturers and the business sector to market our products, in which we, as Northerners, are putting roadblocks in front of the people in the North who produce these products.

I would like to ask the Minister, why is it that as a government, we do not allow our products to be sold anywhere in the Northwest Territories?

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. I would again like to remind Members that we are on general comments on this whole thing. We have been dealing with the Development Corporation for the past two speakers now, and it will come up under 11-21. I will allow the Minister to respond.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I will speak in general to the principle of what we are doing. It is our objective, in manufacturing northern products, to first of all have northern people manufacture them in the North; secondly, to get the retailers in the North to handle them in their stores and other services they provide. Then you have a normal market, where our products are sold by the northern stores and the Co-op, private sector and so on.

If we were to continue to sell the products ourselves in competition with the private sector, they would all just back away from it and we would end up with no stores carrying northern manufactured products. In order to not compete with them, but with an unfair advantage of the government, then we have to say that we will not sell directly if there is a privately-owned retail business selling the product.

In the case of the Fort McPherson tents, there are retail outlets who sell them. We cannot compete with them, otherwise they are going to say take your tents and sell them yourself. We would lose on that count. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe we are already losing because you cannot sell that product wholesale. You have to sell with a market cost built into the price. The person who is selling it makes a profit out of somebody else's craft or item they produced. That is where I have a problem.

People have taken advantage of First Nations people for how long when it comes to crafts, moccasins, et cetera. People at the YCI are making carvings and selling them for next to a dollar. The guy then turns around and sells it at the storefront operations and they make a mint out of it. That is where I have a problem.

This government has a responsibility to ensure there is an open market and people have the right to sell their products without having someone who has a storefront operation dictating to them exactly what the price of that item should be. If Joe wants to sell some in the corner store or out in front of the post office, he should be able to do that. But because he is competing against Walmart or Canadian Tire or these large conglomerates who can eat you up any day of the week, you can never compete against that type of competition. I think this government has to do more to ensure the regulations and restrictions that are put in place, especially for northern manufacturers and producers, are taken out. We need to allow those products to be sold on the open market. Imposing these measures on our own people is where I have a problem.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Handley.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I suppose the long-term answer, and I am not being flippant in saying it, but the long-term answer will be for more northern and northern aboriginal people to become retailers, so they are the ones who are benefiting from the sale of their products.

I do not think it would be a good business practice for us to sell at whole sale price and, at the same time, expect that retailers are going to carry the product. It would not work. I cannot agree that it would be a good environment for us to compete against people we are asking to sell things. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Also, in regard to the policies that this government has in place, we have the Business Incentive Policy, we have the manufacture policies in place for businesses to produce products in the Northwest Territories.

One area that I feel we have to do more in is the secondary industries. I think we have to realize that any strong economy in the world, or even in Canada for that matter, you look at the provinces that have a high GDP in regard to gross domestic product, are those provinces that have those secondary manufactured industries built into their society.

I think for us here in the North, we have to do more to promote that, especially when it comes to...one problem that I have is that government, across the board, is not following that policy. In some areas, some departments do but other departments do not.

The Housing Corporation is a good example. I raised a question about what is happening in Alaska. I raised a question in regard to companies in my riding, or even in Inuvik, you have Bob's Welding, Tetlodge Development Corporation. These groups have demonstrated they can produce their own doors, windows, frames, and other items. They use tanks, and what not, in regard to businesses here in Yellowknife that have taken the time, established their own businesses, especially in the manufacturer side, and are starting to promote it.

But this government has to do more to ensure that it is carried out right across the board, not just in this department, but it is this department's responsibility to ensure that those policies are being enforced and they are carried out by all departments in the government.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Handley.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will take the Member's advice. The manufacturing directive and so on do apply to all government departments and agencies and we will do what we can to make sure everybody follows it. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Krutko.

Maybe the Minister can tell us what happens if they do not follow it?

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Handley.

Mr. Chairman, if departments and agencies are not following it and we catch it in time, then correction is made to make sure that the department understands what the responsibility is. Quite often, though, we do not find out until after. It is very hard to do more than remind them that that policy does apply to every department.

If a department, and we have not had a case yet, consistently ignores it, then we would have to look at what action would have to be taken in that case. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Krutko, do you have any more general comments?

Mr. Chairman, in regard to the reply from the committee to the Minister, especially in communities where we do not have the potential for oil, gas or any major developments happening, we have to start promoting the renewable, non-renewable businesses that are there, especially in the trapping and crafts area and fishing and the marketing of wheat products and what not.

There has been very little emphasis put on the importance of that sector in regard to dollars that have been spent in the past. Unknowingly that what happened in the fur industry, which we have seen in our communities, that there have been some major effects on that, especially when it comes to aboriginal abilities to subsistence. Where they used to have hundreds of trappers going out every year to trap, now we are down to a very small handful of them in our communities.

I am wondering, can the Minister tell us exactly what initiatives he is willing to take or bring forth to ensure that we improve that sector of our economy?