The Minister responsible for Health and Social Services, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we will consider Mr. Lafferty's suggestion and try to come up with a plan whereby we could possibly speak to nurses who are leaving communities. I think that it is important to keep that kind of information.

When you have unusual high turnover rates, I think anomalies shed a lot of light on the subject. Perhaps it is something the department could look at if the boards agreed that we could assist with, because many boards would be quite familiar with why people are leaving. Sometimes when people are leaving, there might be a reluctance to even talk to the board itself about what the reasons were. It might be something better handled by someone with a little bit of distance from the actual person when they were in the working environment. Thank you.

General comments, Mr. Lafferty.

Madam Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Lafferty is right. There could be an element of that reason for their departure associated with the working conditions or the relationship with their employer and they would be most unlikely to disclose that or discuss that.

There could be some very useful information come to light from something like that. We will work on that in the department to see if there is a way to, at least, if you are not catching all departing employees, try to at least catch a cross-section of them to help us get a better understanding of what some of the challenges for people working in the communities are. Thank you.

Mr. Lafferty.

The Minister responsible for Health and Social Services, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There are initiatives being undertaken under the continuing care strategy. I am going to ask Ms. Ballantyne to elaborate on that.

The deputy minister, Ms. Ballantyne.

Thank you, Ms. Ballantyne. General comments? Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I would just like to get back to the broader issues of governance and organizational structures. The discussion has been a comparison of sorts between education and health and social services. When you put them side-by-side, they both have Ministers, they both have deputies, they both have ADMs -- of course, Health has the associate, which no other department has -- they have directors on down to managers. Then you get into the boards.

They also operate under the same kind of financial systems as departments. The FAA is the bible. They are supposed to be following the basic human resource policies and regulations of the government. Very clearly at this point, how the departments are operating are significantly different. They do have a lot in common as government departments.

The question is what is the problem with the systems in place in Health in terms of information, the financial relationships with the department itself and the boards...in all of these areas? It makes it impossible at this point to get the kind of accountability, the kind of monitoring and the kind of information the department says is lacking.

Clearly, there are some problems with the structures and how things are being run as we speak. There is a difference.

My understanding as well is that health boards and DECs have almost an equivalent amount of autonomy under their respective legislation. The DECs have a tremendous amount of authority to do things.

The question as well comes back to the acknowledged problems with good information, which has resulted in poor recommendations and inaccurate or possibly less than adequate recommendations to boards, committees, Ministers over the last couple of years. That brings into question the information in the budget. How is that impacted by that acknowledged shortfall of good, blue-chip information?

We have made a lot of decisions in the last two years based on the information that has been provided, accepting at face value that it was "good information." To me, that is a question that has to be addressed. We keep focusing in the discussion right back down to health boards, but the broader issues are still there in my mind.

The Minister said that she did not think the way we characterize our relationship between the boards and the departments was really fair or accurate. I would suggest that in fact it is fairly accurate. Once again, what you had in health up until very recently was health boards forming their own health care association so that they could better do business with the government in a way that seemed to be structured in quite an adversarial way. It has now been disbanded, but that whole mentality is still there.

I would say as well that those health boards that have no budgets at this point, at the start of another fiscal year, are at the very least very frustrated, especially when the issue is the department saying they cannot get good information from the health boards, that the health boards are not giving them what they need.

Mr. Chairman, there are some fundamental organizational questions that go from the very top of that department to the communities with their health boards. When you look at all of those relationships and all of those systems in place, the question I have to the Minister is what changes are they going to make? Not only looking at how the health boards run, but as the department runs, to ensure that they do have good financial information and accountability systems. The other human resource information and other operational information that you need is there. It is not a situation where we are in the 12th month of a fiscal year and the debate is, "We are not getting good information. We do not know what the deficits are." That brings us to the question of how accurate is this information in the main estimates?

My other final question -- and we are going to recognize the clock, I would imagine -- I would like to know Mr. Cuff's involvement, his previous experience in Alberta. Did he get his spurs in the rolling up of the health boards in Alberta? Is that where he comes to us from, with that sort of involvement?

I see that it is six o'clock, Mr. Chairman, so I will conclude my remarks at this point.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. With that, we will recognize the clock and report progress. I will allow the Minister to respond tomorrow. I would like to thank the Minister and her witnesses. Thank you.

The House will come back to order. Item 21, report of the committee of the whole. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta, Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, your committee has been considering Bill 19, Appropriation Act, 2001-2002 and Committee Report 7-14(3), and would like to report progress. Mr. Speaker, I move the report of the committee of the whole be concurred with. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Do we have a seconder for the motion? The Chair recognizes the honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre. The motion is in order. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried. Item 22, third reading of bills. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Ootes.

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. The motion is in order. Question has been called. All those in favour? Thank you. All those opposed? The motion is carried. Bill 14 has had third reading. Item 22, third reading of bills. Item 23, orders of the day. Mr. Clerk.

Thank you, Mr. Clerk. Accordingly, the House stands adjourned until Tuesday, February 20th at 1:30 p.m.

-- ADJOURNMENT

The House adjourned at 6:00 p.m.