Thank you, Mr. Roland. The motion is being circulated. There is a motion on the floor. The motion is in order. To the motion.

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Clause 13, as amended. Agreed?

We will go back to preamble. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I apologize that I was absolutely unavoidably absent from the House yesterday and I was not able to speak to this bill under general comments and I would like to make a few remarks on this just at this juncture if I could.

Mr. Chairman, this is a very unique piece of legislation that comes to us for approval very late in our mandate. However, the Government of the Northwest Territories has been at the table and involved with the interests and positions of our government being put forward on a consistent basis. This is just one of three pieces of legislation that our government will need to deal with as part of the ratification process for the future agreement.

We do have a process for taking legislation such as this out to public consultation and I believe the these public hearings are sometimes as much about creating awareness as they are about receiving feedback. Many times legislation is complex and it would be unreasonable to expect the average person to have the resources at their disposal to consider it in great detail. It would be more likely to receive support or non-support for the principle and the intention of the legislation.

I am here in this Legislative Assembly first and foremost to represent the interest of my constituents in Hay River South and I was able to speak to several of them about this particular piece of legislation, but as Members a large part of our work calls upon us to look at decisions and legislation that affects our people on a territorial basis. So it is important, while having a focus on our own constituency, to also view our decisions through the lens of a territorial-wide perspective.

I fundamentally believe that a treaty such as the one signed by the Tlicho was an agreement between the federal government and the Tlicho people. Although the outcomes of meeting the obligations of the treaty may have an impact on our government and how we will do things in the future, we are essentially not a direct party to the agreement. We are being called upon to pass legislation which says that this government recognizes, affirms, validates and understands and agrees to the way in which this agreement will consequentially affect us. In this way, it is not a typical piece of legislation drafted, crafted and brought forward by our government. It is more amply described as a response to a federal government making good on a long-outstanding commitment as outlined in a treaty, and as much as it impacts us, I believe it has been good that we have been afforded representation at the negotiating table throughout the process.

With respect to the issue being raised by the North Slave Metis Alliance, there are many outstanding issues of rights and land and self-government which will be negotiated and signed in the future, and I am not comfortable with our government being put in a position of having to referee or being put in the middle of disputes as to whether one agreement infringes on another group's right. I believe that this is a case that needs to be taken up with the federal government and I am not in a position to make a judgment on those complexities. The North Slave Metis are asking for time. The ratification legislation required to be passed by the federal government hasn't progressed yet so I think that there is time to put their case forward.

So, Mr. Chairman, our government does have a process of taking legislation to public hearings, I respect that process and the commitment of Members who have spoken to that process. Everyone has agreed, however, that after 12 years and $28 million invested in negotiations, it isn't likely that this legislation is going to be significantly altered. This is just one of three pieces of legislation our government is going to need to pass. I would like to suggest that in preparation for public consultation that will occur on the next two subsequent pieces of legislation, that perhaps the territory-wide information and awareness initiative be undertaken by our government to inform anyone who is interested as to the substance and implications of the Tlicho agreement or any other land claims and self-government impacts generally for that matter.

Mr. Chairman, I do not believe that there is a great deal of risk for the Tlicho people if this legislation were deferred. However, I do believe that the passage of it today is as much symbolic as anything else, and it sends a message of support for this and many other aboriginal government partners that our central public government will work with it in the future as claims and self-government commitments made by our federal government are acted upon.

So for all of these reasons, Mr. Chairman, I have tried to express here today, I wanted to say that I won't be supporting third reading of Bill 34 today. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Bell.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a couple of points I would like to make as we finish this up. Mr. Chairman, first of all we've been inundated with many media requests to speak to this process in the last few days and so much paper you can't believe it, but I think one of the main concerns that has been expressed by the North Slave Metis on behalf of Metis people, and I believe that they are raising some legitimate concerns, but I believe these concerns are more correctly put to the federal government. I would hope that both the GNWT and indeed the Aboriginal Summit if they see fit, would work with the Metis people and take their case to the federal government. I believe they do need to be recognized, their rights need to be recognized and I hope the federal government can see the light.

Mr. Chairman, my main concerns throughout this have been about process, and the Premier the other day in speaking to the bill asked us to use our best judgment and asked us to take a leap of faith. Well, I have to say, for me, Mr. Chairman, this is not about a leap of faith. I certainly support the agreement, I support self-government and I believe that it will be better for the Northwest Territories. I also support the devolution of authority to the GNWT from the federal government for very similar reasons, and I think that this agreement will do more good for the people of the Northwest Territories to have it passed than to not have it passed. But, Mr. Chairman, my concern has always been with the process.

As we saw today, committee just proposed an amendment to this bill and it was one that passed in the House. So to suggest that a public process and public consultation would have no affect since this agreement has already been signed, I don't believe that that is the case. I recognize there would be no changes made to this agreement, but to suggest that there could be no changes made to the legislation, to suggest that it is inconceivable that anybody out there in the public might have had ways to improve this bill, I don't think that's fair, Mr. Chairman. I don't know how many drafts this legislation went through, but I am guessing it was in the neighbourhood of 20 or more. Do we assume that the content and the text were identical through 20 drafts? Obviously that's not the case. Obviously there were changes, there were improvements made. It's important I think to have a sober second thought. If there is anything we can do to improve this agreement, I think the amendment strengthens and improves this legislation and I think that's the kind of thing that the public process affords us. So now having made my concerns known about process and accepting that a committee heard my case and you don't always carry the day at committee, I recognize that and I appreciate that. Having raised my process concerns, I am not left with the question of whether voting in favour of this legislation or voting opposed to the legislation, what would be better for the people of the Northwest Territories. Is more good likely to come from passing this agreement now and moving past this having made my concerns known about the process? Mr. Chairman, I believe that's the case and that's why I will be supporting this agreement.

---Applause

But I certainly hope we recognize that this is not the way constitutional development should take place. In the life of the next government, if they don't recognize the need to involve all citizens and Members of this House in developing all pieces of legislation, I think that would be truly a shame. There was a way to do this properly. There was a way to make sure that Regular Members and all people in the Northwest Territories were more involved throughout the process. I believe we need to strive to ensure that that is the case for the next pieces of legislation we see. We did nothing but raise the concerns and fears of people when, in our last days in government, we move quickly to subvert a public process and jam something through the legislature. Even where there is nothing to be legitimately concerned about, we raised concerns. To me, that seems absolutely the wrong way to go about building the very types of partnerships that the Premier spoke passionately about the other day.

Mr. Chairman, as I said, I have to support this legislation because I think more good will come of my support than otherwise. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to make a few comments on the preamble. Mr. Chairman, as you can see, the clauses in the preamble are a very clear and loud announcement of constitutional law. It is a very broad statement. It is a legislative statement about the rights and powers of the Tlicho people to have their own government that is recognized under the Constitution. Like all laws, and especially constitutional law, Mr. Chairman, it is a living document. It's something that's expected to have life put into it by the people. I believe the Constitution, and I have said this many times before, the Constitution isn't just about laws, clauses and words. Constitution is about relationships. It's about relationships between the people and the government that governs them or the people they elect, the government that people elect. It's about, in this case, a new relationship between Tlicho people and the people they come into contact with in the Territories. I believe very fundamentally that this agreement will force us to work closer and have a closer relationship than before. It asks us to work closely for the benefit of all the people who live here.

I believe this is a good agreement fundamentally. It will give us stability and certainty, not only for the Tlicho people but for Yellowknife. I don't accept for one second that this has no implications other than to the people who live in the Tlicho territory. In fact, this has deep meaning for everybody in the Territories. This government has a role to play and it will continue to have a role to play in terms of giving meaning to the words that are in this document in front of us.

I believe there was a flaw in the consultation process and that has been pointed out many a time and there are many reasons why that was the case. I don't believe it's too late for us to continue to have a conversation about different relationships that are being formed and are being grown out of here. I believe the NWT government, the Minister and the Premier and the next Assembly have very important roles to continue to play. It's not about whether this government is done now, and then you go away. I don't think anything about the relationship between different peoples works that way. There has to be a role for the GNWT to inform the citizens and to incorporate people's views into this document because it's really about how we, as a very small population of people, 40,000 people in a vast land with very distinct aboriginal people in different areas determining their own future and what they want to do with their land with their people and their priorities. We have to respect that, but we also, as a public government, have to be the mediator and facilitator and to provide leadership for the rest of the territory, as well as providing coordination. I believe in going through the clauses in this agreement, it makes it abundantly clear there will be a continued role for the GNWT to play in making sure that there are agreements to address, coordination and standardization and even administration of law and funding arrangements and such. I know there are lots of concerns out there that this was not given a due process and I don't believe this is the end. There is lots of opportunity yet to be had for us to discuss this and make this work.

I just wanted to make that comment. After what Mr. Bell said, after all is said and done, we could talk about process, but in the end people remember whether we supported this or not and I said on many occasions, I don't want to see a situation where all Yellowknife MLAs oppose a constitutional document in a new working relationship, a new living agreement, that the GNWT has entered into with the Tlicho government. I understand from the Premier stating that the Tlicho government did not have to come to the GNWT for ratification. It was a choice that they made. I do believe there are people out there who are aware that these negotiations have been going on and this means in a new relationship. People want to know and we have a role to play in that. I do want to use the power and the privilege I have here to say and send a positive message that this is a good day. This is a good agreement. It's calling upon all of us to work together and to work out the details. For that reason, I will be supporting the third reading of this legislation and I will do my part to talk to the people and to explain what I know about this information and work to get more information where it's needed. I do believe this is just the start of a new relationship. Things aren't going to change drastically tomorrow, it just means we have to work much closer together. I just wanted to add that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I still have to drive home tonight. I wish I was counting how many times people in this Assembly have repeated themselves with the same message over and over. So I am not going to bother repeating what I said yesterday. I want to make some reference to some of the correspondence. Yesterday I mentioned some correspondence I received from the Tlicho, the North Slave Metis Alliance and the Fort Providence Metis Council. Today, I want to add, for the record, that we have a letter of support from the Deh Cho First Nations signed by Herb Norwegian urging all the Members to pass the necessary legislation. I do want to pose a question because I haven't heard anybody ask the Minister regarding any assistance or commitment that he could provide for the North Slave Metis Alliance to work some of these issues out. I am not sure I can ask questions at this period, but those are the two items I wanted to raise. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess I can relate to my colleague from the Deh Cho when he says he has to drive home tonight. I also am driving home after we are done here today at some point in time. I have a little bit more driving than he has to do.

I missed yesterday in the House. I hear it was a very exciting day but there was a tragedy that happened in Hay River that I had to attend. I did read Hansard from yesterday and I agree with Mr. McLeod that a lot of the statements that have been made are being repeated, but I don't think that's a bad thing. I do see that a lot of the comments that were made in comments yesterday were comments that I would have made as well, had I been here.

So I would like to make a few comments right now on this bill. First of all, Mr. Chairman, I know it's not my job to stop or to block or even to delay or slow down this Tlicho government, but it is quite apparent, Mr. Chairman, that apart from some of the concerns some of the Members have, there are also groups out there that do have some concerns about how this agreement will affect them and we do have a Minister responsible for Aboriginal Affairs, which includes all the groups and everyone in the Territories actually. It is incumbent upon the Minister and upon this government to make sure the views of all parties are addressed and to give them some comfort in this. When I hear comments like if we pass this bill in the House, that the whole thing is going to be thrown into court and it could take awhile in court if that happens. Then what have we done? That would be very unfortunate both for the Tlicho and for everyone, I guess. So we could end up doing quite the opposite of what we are trying to do here and that's try to get the process moving in a speedy way and make sure that there are no roadblocks. I don't know that that will happen, but from what I am hearing, there is a possibility of that and if that happens, that would be very unfortunate.

To me, Mr. Chairman, it all started with leadership. It started with this bill coming before us at a very late date. Our Premier and our Minister of Aboriginal Affairs convinced Cabinet to move this to the House knowing full well that we had very little time to deal with it. I have heard comments that we may have to find a different type of process to deal with this type of legislation and with land claims or self-government agreements. That's fine, Mr. Chairman, if we do find a new process and our government agrees to that, but for the time being and for what I believe is a process in our government, we don't have a different process right now. As a Member of this government, I think it's incumbent upon us to try to get as much information to our constituents as we possibly can. I know that I have heard comments before from Ministers on the other side that they had some serious concerns about what's included in this type of legislation, yet they are supporting it now so maybe they got more information than I was able to get or something has happened that they've changed their minds. That's okay. I know the leaders who have been involved and the negotiators will be taking full credit, if this bill does get through the House and does get third reading, for their part in doing that.

Mr. Chairman, I would just throw a word of caution that if it turns out that this piece of legislation is to the detriment of any group in the Northwest Territories outside of the Tlicho. I am not saying that it's going to be, but if it is, then I am hoping the leaders of our government and the negotiators and the leaders who have put it together will be prepared to take the blame for that. I feel a little bit sorry, Mr. Chairman, of the position our committee was put in. Our committee was put into a situation with very little time to deal with a bill of this magnitude. I do believe that it has a lot of magnitude. This is a large bill.

So I think as it goes to the public, there will be a lot of education yet and I know there will be a long implementation period and a lot of growing pains that are going to go along with this and I am not going to be the one to stand up and say that it's a bad piece of legislation.

Over the past few days, there has been lots of talks. There's been a lot of tactics used to get the support of everybody and I have even been assured by the grand chief, Joe Rabesca, that this Tlicho government is going to be great for Hay River. I intend to remind him of that if this goes through over the next while that he's made that comment. I am hoping that it is and I am hoping that it's good for not only Hay River, but for the Tlicho themselves and for the North as a whole. I look forward to how these 10 years of negotiations and what they've put together for self-government and lands claims is going to work for their people and I wish them all the success in the world. So when third reading does come up for this bill, Mr. Chairman, I am going to support the third reading of this bill.

I hope there is a good flow of communication into the future with the public and I would just like to say to all the Tlicho people here, I want to wish you all the best in your government and I hope it does all the things that you hope it will do. I guess if I could close with one comment, if this does go through, I hope you live happily ever after on Tlicho lands. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, this is an occasion for us to celebrate a long, drawn out process. This started back in 1921, almost 80 years ago, since the first treaties were signed, but it's taken the Canadian public to realize that aboriginal rights have never been recognized in the Canadian Constitution until 1982. Still today there are people out there who don't agree that First Nations people have rights, but it's entrenched in the Canadian Constitution which affirms, in section 35, that these rights apply.

I was in Rae in 1988 when the Prime Minister of Canada, back then Brian Mulroney, signed the Dene-Metis agreement-in-principle. Then I had the opportunity of being there August 25th for the signing with the Prime Minister of Canada for the Tlicho agreement. It has been a long, drawn out process which has taken a lot of time and effort. In the process, I have seen a lot of our leaders come and go. We have lost a lot of good people in this process who are no longer with us and who have dedicated their lives to seeing the day when their children and their grandchildren will have something that was started over 80 years ago with the first treaty of Canada which, back then, was classified as a friendship treaty. Today we have a modern treaty which includes self-government agreements and a land claims agreement.

For me, that's a step of recognizing and affirming those rights that First Nations people have in the Constitution of Canada. I feel that for the Tlicho people, this will only make your lives better and give you the responsibility of maintaining your own decision-making process by way of what's in the Tlicho agreement and also the Tlicho government's act, which we will be dealing with again in the 15th Assembly.

I would like to congratulate the negotiations on both sides and especially the elders who have been here for the past couple of days. They have been waiting a long time to see this day come to be especially in the Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories.

With that, I would like to make it clear that I fully support the Tlicho agreement and will continue to do so in the future.

As I said earlier, I would have preferred to see a longer public process for consideration of this bill. It really is a vehicle for information for the public. For me, it's always been a process issue. I think that my colleagues have indicated where some of us are repeating each other around the table, I guess I don't need to do that. I think most of my colleagues have said most of what needs to be said. Mr. Bell in particular outlined things pretty close to the way I see them.

I would agree that the North Slave Metis Alliance has legitimate concerns, but since the Government of the Northwest Territories is not a necessary part of the agreement, I am not sure we are the ones to deal with the issue. It is going to have to be an issue that the North Slave Metis Alliance are going to have to deal with with the federal government.

The one thing I feel very strongly about is I hope the government in the 15th Assembly will make sure that there is an effort made so that all parties to these agreements understand and respect each other's processes or else establish upfront a new convention for how this government is going to deal with them.

I would point out that a couple of years ago, the standing committee suggested that a different approach be taken to dealing with claims agreements, so there was more involvement during the negotiation processes, so that committees were more prepared for legislation when it comes before us. That was rejected by the government at that time.

So I hope the 15th Assembly will reconsider that and look for ways to make sure that everybody is comfortable with how legislation is moved along and how this level of government ratifies agreements.

There is one other concern I would like to address and that is the allegation that there was a secret deal to pass this bill made in committee. Mr. Chairman, that may have come about perhaps because of the way we reported the bill. How I reported the bill in opening comments in yesterday's Hansard on page 3197. I started out by saying the Standing Committee on Accountability and Oversight has been considering Bill 34. I said further on that we passed a motion to report it back to the House for consideration. I would just like to clarify that there is no set single path for how committee's deal with bills. At the standing committee, all that was discussed was process, whether or not we were going to try to have a one-night public hearing, whether or not we were going to take a break and go out and try to do a week's worth of public hearings. Some even proposed that we extend the life of the Assembly until January and that would give us lots of time to go out and do public hearings. That was the sort of discussion that went on committee, not whether or not to try to pass the bill. It was to try to determine the process. Being part of a democratic process, our issues are dealt with by way of motions, votes in committee. So it was accurate when I reported yesterday that the committee adopted a motion to report it back to the House for consideration. So there wasn't a consensus. It wasn't a unanimous vote, but the majority ruled. We had a majority who wanted to see it back in this House and you have to respect the rule of majority.

I personally wish we had had more time to deal with this bill. I respect the fact that the Tlicho invited us to the table, the Government of the Northwest Territories. I regret that perhaps I haven't had more time to ensure that my constituents are comfortable with what's in this bill. Based on what I have seen of it and my understanding of what has been happening over the years, I voted in favour of the bill at second reading. So I supported the principle of the bill and I will, too, be supporting the bill on third reading. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I won't be very long on this. I have taken a fair bit of time over the last couple of days and I have to thank my colleagues for allowing me to do what I see as my role as a representative for my constituents of Inuvik Boot Lake. As we heard the Minister say, this is legislation that will change the beginnings of a major change of the Government of the Northwest Territories and aboriginal governments in the Northwest Territories. It's a natural evolution to the way things have gone. My father right now is happy he has the right to vote. That's one of the things I guess I was looking at and question to ensure that as residents of the Northwest Territories, we ensure we are doing what's right for all people. I did say when we started off on this Committee of the Whole process, I told the Minister I had some specific questions and how he responded to my questions would either sway me to go for or against. I must thank the Minister and his staff for responding to my questions with clear responses and answers. By doing that and satisfying the specific concerns I had that I think my constituents would have, because as the Minister stated this will be a template that other self-government groups will use in the future, somewhat different maybe, but it is a template.

I do take my role here in this Assembly very seriously, Mr. Chairman, about the responsibility I have when I took the oath as a Member of this government. I know some Members were a little concerned that my questions were of other tactics, so I tell them right now that's not the case. I had some specific concerns. The Minister and his staff have answered them clear enough that I can tell the Minister at this time that I will be supporting third reading of this bill. I know I can go back to my constituents based on the questions I asked and the answers I got from the Minister that I think I can satisfy the concerns I had about this piece of legislation.

I would like to thank again those who did come to this Assembly because so many times when we look up in the gallery, we see empty seats. So we know those who have taken the time to come and visit us and see how this process works had something they were concerned about and wanted to see. Like Mr. Delorey, I would wish them the best. Hopefully as their government takes hold and they elect people to represent them in those positions of power in the new government, that they would have people who would be as diligent, I hope, as I think I am in representing my people, that they would represent their people in that way holding their government accountable and responsible to their people and the rules and laws they make. I would congratulate them on their work and effort and the Minister and his department's effort in taking this to where we are today. I congratulate you all and look forward to third reading. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Nitah.

Thank you, Mr. Nitah. Mr. Lafferty.

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I, too, will try to avoid repeating myself and the remarks, the very well crafted and well said remarks of my colleagues that I will agree with. My position is clear on the difficulty I have with this bill. That is that the opportunity that the people of the Northwest Territories have come to expect and deserve, to be able to look and criticize and potentially amend our laws has been denied in this process. It has gone against some of the fundamental values that we've tried to adhere to in this Assembly, values like being inclusive and governing our affairs with some abeyance to the principles of consensus. These things are at the core of our values in the Assembly and admittedly and undeniably, we are denying people those values in this process.

Along with a number of my colleagues, I have tried to bring focus and significance to the responsibility we have in this institution to be consistent, to make sure that there are at least some stages in the way we govern that people can rely on. When we change our mind and change the direction and change the process by which we make these laws, I think we diminish our confidence, our trust and our credibility. You can't peel too many more layers off of our purpose for being here, Mr. Chairman. If we don't have the trust and the integrity, then we really don't have anything. I don't want to say where this layers the case, where we are putting it all on the line. It's not an emergency or a make or break degree, but we need to be very careful every time we say we can do something differently. Especially after the fact in this case, Mr. Speaker. We have taken some people by surprise and denied them an opportunity that they might have had earlier in the process.

In my objections, in my arguments, in my discussions with a lot of people, and my colleagues have said, we have been tremendously, vigorously lobbied on this one. I believe I have got a couple of things out on the table. One of them, in a discussion with some aboriginal leaders, with the Minister this afternoon, is an acknowledgment and an understanding, at least on my part, that because these laws - and there are going to be more of them - are created in a different process we are used to, then we need to look at our approval process as well. That is something that the next Assembly has to look at pretty early and look at very seriously. We are going to see the same kind of challenge again.

Mr. Chairman, I have also secured a confirmation from Chief Joe Rabesca that one of the first things I hope to do if I am returned as the Member for Great Slave is to invite Grand Chief Joe and his people into my constituency to meet face to face with my constituents and explore the consequences of this bill and what I know are the benefits and at least take up some of what I think has been denied to the people of the NWT. I have not asked Mr. Antoine for that same commitment. He will not, of course, be returning to this Assembly, but it is something that I want to engage in with the next Minister of Aboriginal Affairs and take that back to my constituents as something I hope I can be held accountable for, that I have tried to deliver on this fundamental process that we have, unfortunately and very regrettably, Mr. Chairman, been compelled to forego.

I am going then to give qualified support to the third reading of this bill, Mr. Chairman. If I have heard my colleagues correctly, it seems that that will be a unanimous decision from this Assembly, from what I have heard so far. I believe that voice on that side is going to be a progressive one and that the qualification that I attach to it will help us see our way through this very new and very bold new step we will be taking in the development of the new Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Braden. To the preamble.

To the bill as a whole, as amended.

Does the committee agree that Bill 34 is ready for third reading as amended?

Bill 34 is now ready for third reading, as amended.

---Applause

I would like to thank the Minister and his witnesses for appearing. What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Dent.

Mr. Chairman, I move we report progress.

There is a motion on the floor. The motion is not debatable. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

The chair will rise and report progress.

The House will now come back to order. Item 20, report of Committee of the Whole. The honourable Member for Hay River North, Mr. Delorey.