This is page numbers 1255 - 1298 of the Hansard for the 14th Assembly, 6th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was chairman.

Topics

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

Return To Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we have been working very diligently in the development of the integrated service delivery model, which is a process where we work with a model for service delivery that is collaborative, community-based and integrates services at the community level. Part of that process was to do a full and complete inventory of all the services that all the communities have. There is whole range of sizes of communities and there are different service levels in a lot of different communities, and part of the process is to develop a baseline of what is acceptable, what is there and how far do we have to move to in fact standardize the service delivery. The Member is correct, that across the Northwest Territories there is a lack of consistency in terms of how services have evolved in various communities and it is one of the long-term issues that we are going to strive to address. Thank you.

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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Mr. Lafferty.

Supplementary To Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
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Leon Lafferty North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I hope the Minister is not talking about another study there about the information he is putting together. I'd like to ask him, he said in his opening introduction that there are actions to support people in taking care of themselves and improve support they receive from the health and social services system. How can you help people to help themselves if they don't have the facilities to help themselves in? I'd like to ask the Minister, when is he going to look at improving the health facilities in the Northwest Territories? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 400-14(6): Standardizing Health Services Across Communities
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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we are moving as consistently and as comprehensively as we can in terms of health facilities. We have done work in Aklavik, Inuvik and we are doing work in Sachs, in Holman and Paulatuk. We are working with the Hay River Reserve in dealing with their issues. There is work to be done in the Hay River hospital as well, and Fort Smith is on the list. Mr. Speaker, we know that there are facilities that we have that need to be improved. We know that there are areas where we haven't got facilities and we have to put them in. It is a question of getting everything planned and into the process, accessing available funds the same as we try to do with the actual program services with the nurses. We have added doctors, we have added social workers, we have upgraded alcohol and drug workers and we are trying to do as much as we can, but we have time constraints and funding constraints. Thank you.

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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Mr. Lafferty.

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Leon Lafferty North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is too bad we can't get any questions when the Minister doesn't answer your question. I'd like to ask him again, what is he doing for standardizing facilities in the Northwest Territories? He has given me answers on all of the other things except the facilities. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we are looking at protecting and upgrading the facilities we have, the investments we now have on the ground. As I said, Sachs, Paulatuk, Holman; we have just opened a health centre in Aklavik. We are doing work in Hay River and a number of other areas. We have other work to do; we have to compete for scarce capital dollars. The community service delivery models will address both the program needs and where there are shortages of infrastructure. Thank you.

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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Your final supplementary, Mr. Lafferty.

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Leon Lafferty North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. During his answer, the Minister referred to a number of communities. I have never heard those names mentioned in this House or any questions on lacking services, except for Hay River, and I know there have been issues there and it is justifiable to say that they do need help in upgrading their facility there, but shouldn't the Minister look at putting facilities in where there are none instead of just upgrading for the sake of upgrading? Thank you.

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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, clearly in the business we are in, we all know in this House that there are more needs than there are resources. We do not upgrade just for the sake of upgrading. We upgrade for the sake of protecting our investment to make sure that we can continue to deliver high-quality programs from these critical facilities. We also know that there are places that need facilities, they have to be dealt with and we are taking steps to do that. Thank you.

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The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. The time for question period has expired. Item 7, written questions. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta, Mr. Krutko.

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

I have a written question for the Minister of Health and Social Services.

  1. Can the Minister provide a firm date as to when the job competition will be posted for an alcohol and drug worker in Aklavik?
  2. Can the Minister provide a firm date as to when the job competition will be held for a position under the new mental health/addictions investment for the community of Aklavik?
  3. Can the Minister provide a timeline for the Department of Health and Social Services and the Inuvik Regional Health and Social Services Authority to once again involve the community of Aklavik in delivering mental health/addictions programming?
  4. Will the Minister consider removing the requirement of any new mental health and addictions services provider or board in Aklavik to take on the debt of the previous board and, if not, why not?
The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Item 7, written questions. Item 8, returns to written questions. The honourable Member for North Slave, Mr. Lafferty.

Leon Lafferty North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I seek unanimous consent to return to item 6, oral questions.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you. The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to return to item 6, oral questions. Are there any nays? There was a nay. You do not have consent. Item 8, returns to written questions. Item 9, replies to Opening Address. Item 10, petitions. Item 11, reports of standing and special committees. The honourable Member for Inuvik Boot Lake, Mr. Roland.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

On June 11, 2003, Bill 22, Waste Recovery and Reduction Act and Bill 25, Municipal Statutes Replacement Act were referred to the Standing Committee on Governance and Economic Development for public review.

The Committee held public hearings in Inuvik, Aklavik, Hay River and Yellowknife.

The following is the committee's report on Bill 22 and on Bill 25, and reflects the views of committee members and those of the people and organizations that took the time to appear at the public hearings or to make written submissions.

Bill 22, Waste Recovery And Reduction Act

Introduction

The Standing Committee on Governance and Economic Development is pleased to report on its review of Bill 22, Waste Recovery and Reduction Act.

The committee would like to thank the Minister and his staff for moving quickly to complete and introduce this bill in response to requests by Members of the Legislative Assembly to make it a priority.

The committee would also like to thank all the individuals who took the time to prepare submissions or to make presentations at our public hearings.

The committee heard a great deal of support for this long-awaited legislation, which will allow the government to establish waste recovery, reuse and recycling programs to deal with a wide range of materials. As Ms. Mary McCreadie stated, "This kind of thing is good for our environment, it is good for our people, it helps reduce the direct short and long-term costs for garbage and landfill sites, and it helps reduce the less direct short and long-term costs for the health of the people, animals, water and our land." Ms. McCreadie's statement was typical of the positive comments made by witnesses.However, the committee also heard many questions and concerns about how the act would be implemented, particularly with respect to the proposed beverage container recovery program.

The Minister has indicated that the first program to be developed under this proposed act will be for the recovery of beverage containers, such as pop cans, tetra packs and bottles. The department has already undertaken some public communication and consultation on this proposed initiative and, as a result, many people had comments and questions that were specific to beverage container regulations that may be developed pursuant to this bill, rather than to the bill itself. The committee, therefore, felt it was necessary to take the opportunity to report comments and recommendations on the development of these regulations in addition to its findings on the bill.

Public Review

The committee held public hearings in Yellowknife on August 26th and September 17 to 18, 2003, in Inuvik on September 2nd, in Aklavik on September 3rd, and in Hay River on September 8th. During the clause-by-clause review, which took place on September 18th, four motions to amend the bill were carried by the committee and concurred with by the Minister. All four motions were of a minor and non-substantive nature. Following clause-by-clause review of the bill, a motion was carried to report Bill 22 as amended and reprinted back to the Assembly as ready for consideration in Committee of the Whole.

Consultation

As Members and some witnesses noted, Bill 22 leaves many important issues to be addressed by regulations approved by the Executive Council. It became very clear to the committee that more public communication and consultation is essential before the government proceeds with any regulations, including regulations for a beverage container recovery program. Most people who appeared at our public hearings asked what opportunities they might have to provide input on the regulations, and some had very legitimate concerns about the effect the regulations could have on their businesses, which they do not feel the department has addressed to date.

Bill 22 does provide for the establishment of an advisory committee. Many witnesses took note of this and suggested it could be a vehicle for stakeholder representatives to participate in developing programs and regulations.

Members were pleased that the Minister committed to establishing the advisory committee quickly so they will have the opportunity to be involved in the development of regulations for the beverage container program as well as subsequent regulations. Members also support the suggestion of Mr. Ray Massey, who represented the Inuvik Recycling Society, that the advisory committee's mandate should include reviewing and making recommendations on project applications for money from the environment fund.

In order to be effective, Members would suggest this committee will need representation from stakeholders such as distributors, retailers, environmental organizations and not-for-profit groups and businesses involved in recycling, and would include some individuals with experience working on waste reduction and recovery programs. Members would also like to stress that this committee must have membership from small communities.

The committee would caution that while the advisory committee could play a significant role in the development of regulations, this should not be seen as taking the place of broader public consultation and communication, which will also be critical to the success of programs.

Because of the significance of these regulations and their impact on NWT residents and businesses, Members would also urge the government to consult with all MLAs before finalizing any substantive regulations.

Mr. Speaker, I would ask at this time that my colleague from the committee, Mr. McLeod, to continue with the report.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Roland. The honourable Member for the Deh Cho, Mr. McLeod.

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Members initially had concerns that the enforcement powers included in the bill might be somewhat heavy handed. As Mr. Massey stated with respect to the inspection and auditing powers, "the fact that power is there to use at their discretion with no forewarning, and all over the deposit refund money and how they are doing that seems somewhat overkill."

In particular, there were concerns that the maximum fine of $50,000 for violating the act was unreasonably high. For example, Members would not want to see a volunteer-run not-for-profit group fined $50,000 for inadvertently failing to complete the proper paperwork for a depot it was running.

However, Members heard from Mr. Jack Walker of Petersen and Auger that the enforcement provisions may not be strong enough. Mr. Walker's concerns are discussed in more detail in another section of this report. The committee also noted that other Canadian jurisdictions with mandatory recycling programs have similar inspection and audit powers.

Further, the Minister and department indicated that strong enforcement powers and heavy maximum fines are needed for deterrence in the case of large distributors that intentionally do not comply with the act and regulations. As a result, the committee was generally satisfied that the enforcement provisions in this bill are reasonable.

The committee notes that the bill would allow for specific penalties to be set in regulations, and would urge the government to consider whether smaller maximum penalties could be set in the beverage container recovery regulations for offences by depot and processing centre operators.

Further enforcement issues specific to the proposed beverage container recovery program are discussed in a later section.

exemptions
Special Committees

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Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

The act allows for regulations to be made providing exemptions from the regulations. Questions were asked about why such exemptions would ever be appropriate. The department advised the committee that exemptions would only be considered in cases where distributors set up their own program which provides an equivalent level of environmental stewardship. The committee would suggest that any exemptions should be granted with caution and then only on the recommendation of the advisory committee.

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

The following are issues that were raised specifically with respect to the proposed beverage container recovery program.

costs
Special Committees

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Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Members and some witnesses suspect the government has underestimated the funds necessary to run this program. For example, the department indicated that it has budgeted approximately $10,000 per depot for setup costs. The committee asked several witnesses whether they thought this amount would be adequate, and heard that the costs of setting up and running a depot may vary significantly from community to community depending on who runs it, the availability of space, existing equipment, utility costs and the hours of operation. In most cases, costs will probably exceed $10,000.

Members would also suggest that transportation and handling costs are another area where more analysis and discussion are needed. For example, Mr. Greg Rowe from Tri-R Recycling in Hay River identified the need for adequate handling fees to be paid to the processing centres and depots in order to ensure they are able to run viable operations. More discussion is needed with stakeholders about what if any transportation costs would be paid out of the environment fund.

The committee had concerns about whether the department would be able to enforce the regulations within the estimated budget. Although the Minister indicated only one new full-time position is planned, Members question whether it is realistic to expect existing field staff to enforce this program in addition to their other responsibilities. At minimum they will require training which could in itself be a substantial cost.