This is page numbers 195 - 230 of the Hansard for the 14th Assembly, 6th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was communities.

Topics

Bill 3: Appropriation Act, 2003-2004
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Delancey

Thank you, Madam Chair. That's a correct assumption. At the workshop in October all the partners did agree with the proposal. They did agree in concept to the idea of a new board. They set some criteria for what they thought was needed to make the board work. They've gone back and consulted and the goal for the March workshop is to finalize that new structure and make a recommendation to the Minister. The Member is correct, originally that second workshop was scheduled for December, but because of people's schedules it was put off until March at a time when everybody could participate. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Bill 3: Appropriation Act, 2003-2004
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Ms. DeLancey. Ms. Lee.

Bill 3: Appropriation Act, 2003-2004
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

Then where does the board for Sport North fit into the new board structure?

Bill 3: Appropriation Act, 2003-2004
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Ms. DeLancey.

Bill 3: Appropriation Act, 2003-2004
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Delancey

Thank you, Madam Chair. Sport North has been an active participant in the discussions and, as I said, the partners at the last meeting generated four or five different options for structure of a new board, but all of the options do accommodate the existing organizations and so the board of Sport North would certainly be an active part of Sport North. Their structure might change and their administration might change, depending on how the partners decide to recommend to the Minister that we move forward. Thank you.

Bill 3: Appropriation Act, 2003-2004
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Ms. DeLancey. Ms. Lee.

Bill 3: Appropriation Act, 2003-2004
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. When this discussion paper came out, one of the major concerns that the people had was that - - and I am sure it continues to be -- an additional layer of board structure is being created on top of all the other ones, which might help in coordinating some things, but it might work against some, in that we are dealing with limited resources in the board structures. The more money it's going to cost and the more decisions, steps and so on that have to be taken into account. So I am wondering if I could get information as to where Sport North stands on this extra layer of a board being created on top of them?

Bill 3: Appropriation Act, 2003-2004
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Ms. DeLancey.

Bill 3: Appropriation Act, 2003-2004
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Delancey

Thank you, Madam Chair. I did mention at the meeting in October, the partners did agree to some evaluation criteria for a new board. They are very aware that they do not want to create another layer. They are also very aware that they don't want to take any of the funding that's available for sport and recreation activities away and siphon it into administration. So some of their evaluation criteria for deciding on how to move forward include the fact that they would not increase the layers of decision-making or the layers of administration. As I say, there were several options developed but certainly the common goal of everybody is to move towards this new structure without creating any extra layers. Thank you.

Bill 3: Appropriation Act, 2003-2004
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Ms. DeLancey. Ms. Lee.

Bill 3: Appropriation Act, 2003-2004
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

Could I get information on what's to happen to the lottery that's being administered by Sport North? I understand that the lottery contract that the government has with them will expire at the end of March. Given the information that I have today, it looks like there will be more time required to get this

policy implementation worked out. So where is the department with respect to that issue? Thank you.

Bill 3: Appropriation Act, 2003-2004
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Ms. DeLancey.

Bill 3: Appropriation Act, 2003-2004
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Delancey

The Member is correct. The agreement does expire March 31st. We are in the process of extending that agreement for a one-year period. We are also in the process of undergoing some consultation with Sport North and the other partners on the current lottery regulations to see what issues might be addressed as we update them. Thank you.

Bill 3: Appropriation Act, 2003-2004
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Ms. DeLancey. Ms. Lee.

Bill 3: Appropriation Act, 2003-2004
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

I will leave that issue there and ask a question on another area. It has to do with infrastructure funding for municipalities, in particular the City of Yellowknife. It's impossible to know all the details of all this because it's very complex and that's probably why I am trying to learn from the experts. We went through changes in formula financing or how we give money to cities and municipalities and one of the changes was to have the city line up with the rest of communities on extraordinary water and sewer funds that are available. I am wondering if the extra costs that are going into Fort McPherson or any other communities that have water problems - I am not making a judgment call on that - does the money for that come out of the same pot that would be set up for cities like Yellowknife?

Bill 3: Appropriation Act, 2003-2004
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Ms. DeLancey.

Bill 3: Appropriation Act, 2003-2004
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Delancey

Thank you, Madam Chair. Actually, the tax-based municipalities are eligible to apply to the department for assistance with funding of up to one half of their water/sewer capital costs or infrastructure costs and that is an ongoing line item in our budget. The water/sewer subsidy policy program is to help fund operating costs and that is also available to tax-based municipalities. Any increased funding that might go to communities with special needs would not be taken away from other communities. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Bill 3: Appropriation Act, 2003-2004
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Ms. Lee, your 10 minutes are up. Are there any other general comments? Mr. Lafferty.

Bill 3: Appropriation Act, 2003-2004
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Leon Lafferty North Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. I have some more concerns, I just didn't have time to complete them all at the first crack at it. The other concern I have is in how MACA is dealing with the water and sewer program in Rae-Edzo and in some of the other three communities that have agreements with Public Works and Services.

The agreements, I think, should not be with Public Works and Services, but with MACA because MACA funds these communities. So if there is going to be any kind of agreement with Public Works and Services, it should be a contract agreement between them and the hamlet where Public Works can do services for the hamlet. It should be the hamlet making agreement to take over the water from DPW. DPW doesn't know that system, MACA does. We are working backwards here when we are doing things. I have seen it in this government so many times now where we are doing things backwards. DPW is just an answering machine to most of the contractors in the Territories. You go to Rae-Edzo. If you have a problem there, you have DPW. They will go check on the program, whatever is wrong in the community, they will make a phone call and get the contractor to do the job. Rae-Edzo can do that themselves. They don't need to go through another party to make a phone call. That's another long distance call they have to make. We could save that dollar. MACA and the hamlet can make a deal between themselves for the water and sewer takeover. They don't have to make a deal with Public Works and Services. If the hamlet wants to use Public Works and Services for some of the plumbing or some of the services they do offer, manual labour or mechanical or technical labour, then that's up to the hamlet to choose them. If the hamlet wants to choose some other engineering company or some other energy outfit, then it's up to the hamlet. They can do that. They shouldn't have to be forced to sign an agreement with DPW. As far as I am concerned, DPW is just another contractor out there. They don't do anything different from anybody else out there.

I don't want to get into specifics, but we identify projects, we put the dollars out there and then we see projects going over budget, $20,000, $25,000. A lot of it has to do with the charges to these communities. The percentage they charge is the overrun. It's not the contractors who are doing the work themselves, it's the charges DPW gives to the community. For example, the hamlet of Rae-Edzo was in a debt recovery program. They were just above the debt. They were getting out of it and then DPW comes back in and starts taking over the services. Now they are in debt again. They are going into another new year in debt all because of Public Works and Services. The hamlet used to run the whole system on a monthly basis for $63,000. Now they are paying DPW over $130,000. It's twice the amount they used to run it with and the services are not any better, but they continue to do that .This government gives you money with one hand and takes it away with another hand. The communities are looking bad because of this. It's not only Rae-Edzo, but McPherson is like that and other communities are like that.

So I am telling you right now if there is going to be an agreement done, and I think the House should look at it even more closely. It's not only my concern, but everybody's concern here, if you are going to have an agreement for water and sewer, it should be with MACA and the hamlets, not with Public Works. Public Works is just another contractor out there. They want to make an agreement with Public Works, then it should be up to the hamlet. The government shouldn't force them to do this. Maybe that policy was there and it's time to be changed.

Also, we are building airstrips for communities. Well, why don't we build a winter road from Rae to Edzo so they can have easier access? It's within the municipality. MACA is in charge of that. They should give them the extra funding so they can have a winter road going across the lake, so they can have easier access. We do it for Detah. Detah gets a beautiful road every year and they have a nice chipseal road all the way to their door from the Ingraham Trail. A beautiful road, but they still get a winter road. What's the difference between Detah and Rae-Edzo? Maybe MACA can look at giving them more funding so they can build their winter road.

I know Transportation is going to be called on this and they don't have responsibility and it used to be the federal government. I know all the excuses that are going to be out there, but it's time to just quit giving excuses and start doing things.

There's one more thing I wanted to talk about. Earlier I talked about assessments, upgrading and drainage, which all comes with chipsealing. It never happened in Rae-Edzo. The Transportation department came into town and slapped down a coat of chipseal and went home on a rainy day. Now where's the profiling? Where's the drainage? Where's the assessment? None of it happened. Why is Rae-Edzo different from Tuktoyaktuk? Why is it different from Fort Good Hope? Why did they just come in and slap chipseal down and go home? No profiling, no drainage. Why? There are too many questions here.

The other thing, you said that the $300,000 is not done. But in your own document it says it's done. Monitoring will be undertaken. You say the money is spent, it's done. Rae-Edzo is two communities. Maybe you slapped a little chipseal in Rae, but what about Edzo? Edzo has its own main street. It's on the highway system. The Transportation department is in Edzo. There's a main street that you totally forgot. Maybe you need to put more money into Rae-Edzo. Why did you only think of Rae?

Somebody might say the chipseal was done because I live in Rae and I don't live in Edzo, so I don't want that going around. Politics. So that's about all I have until we get into detail, and then maybe I will have a few more. Thank you.

Bill 3: Appropriation Act, 2003-2004
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. Mr. Steen.

Bill 3: Appropriation Act, 2003-2004
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Madam Chair, I'll try to keep it short. The process the Member describes for water and sewer program administration in the small communities, in particular Rae-Edzo, is exactly what MACA is promoting. It's exactly what we want the community to do, is take it over themselves. I agree with the Member, it's not necessary for Public Works to do the work for them. They can do it themselves, or they can contract it to another contractor. They don't have to use Public Works.

If we go back a little ways, we'll find that Rae had that program. They took over the management of water and sewer in Rae. They did it themselves for years. But they ran into a $400,000 deficit. We bailed them out. MACA bailed them out, and what happened then was that they didn't want to take the management anymore. They signed it back to MACA and we gave it to Public Works. Public Works is actually doing it now for the community, and charging the community back for what it would have cost them to do it themselves. The Member could be right, maybe Public Works is costing them more than they would to do the job themselves. But what we're working with the community now is that we will phase it over to them, and they have agreed to work towards phasing and taking it back, including training people. There's a certain process for training. When they reach that level, building capacity, then we would eventually have them take over the whole process again. That's exactly what we want. Public Works doesn't want to do this if they don't have to. I'm sorry. I suppose I'm speaking as the Minister of Public Works and Services, but I can assure the Member that Public Works does not want to do it if the community wishes to do it themselves.

In relation to the winter road, the ice road outside of Rae, all I can say is MACA is not funding the winter ice road from Yellowknife over to Detah. That's something Transportation does. We don't fund them, as far as I know anyway. So if Rae wants to build a road out like they've done, they have to do it at their own expense. We don't have money for that. We give them money to maintain X number of kilometres of road within the community. If they have a surplus and they want to run their grader or loader out and make a shortcut, that's fine. Obviously they save some cost because of shortcut. Other communities do the same thing. But they don't come back to MACA for more funding, because we can't fund those roads. Well, half of the time they're not there anyway, so... That's the policy we have for those types of situations. Thank you, Madam Chairman.

Bill 3: Appropriation Act, 2003-2004
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Steen. General comments, I have Ms. Lee again.

Bill 3: Appropriation Act, 2003-2004
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a line of questions in another area, but I just want to follow up on what's being discussed here. In the cases like Rae, and I understand there are three or four communities where there have been over expenditures because of the need for more money to be spent on water and sewer facilities, where does that money come from? Is there a pot that's designated for situations like that? Where is it, and how much is it, and how do you pay for the extraordinary cost overruns that we have been seeing? Have you had to go and get the money elsewhere in the department, or do you go to FMBS for more? Could I just get an explanation of that? Thank you.

Bill 3: Appropriation Act, 2003-2004
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Steen.

Bill 3: Appropriation Act, 2003-2004
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Madam Chair, it comes through the supplementary appropriation process. We would put a request to FMB for the funding. It's approved through this process here. If it's ongoing, we would then show it like we've done in this year's budget. We show an ongoing fund for McPherson, that we gave them $250,000 for last year and we've shown another $250,000 for this year. We show it under water and sewage programming. But there are no extra dollars in the program. If it's all spoken for and if we need more, then we have to go back to FMB and we have to go through the supplementary process. Thank you.