This is page numbers 297 - 330 of the Hansard for the 14th Assembly, 6th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was know.

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

The motion is in order. To the motion.

Some Hon. Members

Question.

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

---Applause

The Deputy Speaker

The Deputy Speaker David Krutko

Item 17, first reading of bills. Item 18, second reading of bills. Item 20, consideration in Committee of the Whole of bills and other matters: Bill 3, Bill 6, Bill 7, Bill 8, committee reports 3-14(6), 4-14(6), 5-15(6) and 6-14(6), with Mr. Lafferty in the chair.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 313

The Chair Leon Lafferty

We were on Bill 3 yesterday. What is the wish of the committee today? Mr. Dent.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 313

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to recommend the committee continue consideration of Bill 3 and committee reports 3-14(6), 4-14(6) and 5-14(6) concurrently and that we continue with the Department of Education, Culture and Employment budget and then move into the Executive.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 313

The Chair Leon Lafferty

Thank you. Does the committee agree?

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 313

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 313

The Chair Leon Lafferty

I would like to ask the Minister if he has any witnesses. Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort in the witnesses. Does the committee agree?

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 313

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 313

The Chair Leon Lafferty

At this time, I call a short break.

---SHORT RECESS

department Of Education, Culture And Employment
Bill 3: Appropriation Act, 2003-2004
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

February 24th, 2003

Page 313

The Chair Leon Lafferty

I will call the committee back to order. We are now in general comments. Minister Ootes, would you please introduce your witnesses.

department Of Education, Culture And Employment
Bill 3: Appropriation Act, 2003-2004
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 313

Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Thank you. Mr. Chairman, with me today are Dr. Loretta Foley deputy minister of the department, Lesley Allen is the assistant deputy minister for advanced education and careers, and Paul Devitt is the director of management services. Thank you.

department Of Education, Culture And Employment
Bill 3: Appropriation Act, 2003-2004
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 313

The Chair Leon Lafferty

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Roland.

General Comments
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 313

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, a few general comments in the area of Education, Culture and Employment. Mr. Chairman, in the committee's response to the Department of Education, there are a couple of areas of concern I'd like to highlight and raise my concern, along with a number of things from my constituency as well. The first one in the committee's report is a couple of allocation concerns in student housing. Mr. Chairman, it's been something I've pursued for quite a number of years. In fact, from the 13th Assembly when talk of Aurora Campus was being looked at as to what option to go with, whether it would be a renovation of Grollier Hall or a new building with a gym, or just a new building without a gym, and Public Works has done a study on that. Out of the three options, I remember meeting with the board of governors as they went through that report and with the recommendations made at that time.

It was recommended that it wouldn't be feasible to renovate Grollier Hall because I believe the amount was over $9 million, and it would only give a life expectancy to that facility of 20 years. For a couple of million dollars more, I believe it was around $13 million, one of the options without the gym would give the facility a life expectancy of 40 years. So it was suggested that that would be the route to go. I was happy to see that found its way in under the five-year capital plan. Through a number of avenues, P3s being an initiative the government looked at at that time, that was one of the facilities that would be looked at. Unfortunately, the P3 scenario dropped off the map and the Aurora Campus facility found its way back on the capital plan within the government and is proceeding now with an award of the contract.

The only concern I have, Mr. Chairman, is it's proceeding without a student residence and that's quite a concern to me and the community. The community has come together to try to look at options, and work with the department to come up with a method of building the student residence at the same time we are building the actual facility of classrooms in those spaces. But, unfortunately, to date, we have not come up with a way of doing it.

The department's way of looking at it was to renovate the Blueberry Patch or a number of units within the Blueberry Patch, as we call it in Inuvik. That is a row of housing that belongs to Aurora Campus that was shut down because it wasn't economically viable to continue to operate them. Since then, the department has put some money into it, and a private developer has taken over the facility and leased back some of the units to Aurora Campus and rented out the rest of the units to the public at large. I guess we have to accept that the department is looking at it and our fiscal situation, moving ahead to seeing the best we could make of both worlds.

I have become sort of dissatisfied with what's being presented now, as we go through this process of main estimates and review them. Seeing that the department is actually going ahead with renovations to other student facilities across the Northwest Territories and, in fact, in future years are going to replace some of those facilities that are being renovated, leads me to a great concern, seeing that the renovation of the campus has been worked at from the community level, trying to find ways of doing this and being told we couldn't, and then seeing that the department is putting money into renovating other facilities. Mr. Chairman, based on the stats provided to Members, it showed the occupancy rates of the different residences across the North that deal with Aurora Campus and Aurora College, and it just seemed to fit even further that the community of Inuvik should be looked at seriously when it comes to building a residence. I find it very difficult to look at this budget of the department. I know it is doing a lot of good in a lot of areas. But seeing the work of my community and the members in my community, the education bodies in my community, who agreed with this process, having to see we can't move forward in the residence side and then see another residence in the system being renovated and new facilities being put in place in future years, I really have a difficult time with that, Mr. Chairman. I hope that the Minister can come up something that might be acceptable to my constituents as well as the community of educators. It is, again, very difficult to see that happening.

One another area, Mr. Chairman, I have a couple of questions on the teacher education program specifically. We made some changes in the past. If someone goes through the teacher education program they would have five years to proceed to the next level to get their degree. That was changed and many teachers have gone on to do that. One thing I'm hearing is the difficulty that those who have gone on to get their degrees are having in finding positions in our communities. I don't know if it is isolated to just my constituency, but I'm hearing that from a few other Members. We say we need to train Northerners to take those positions. We've increased the requirements. After five years, if they need a degree, they go out and get a degree. Then when they go and apply for a position in the North, they're being told that they can't and we continue to see new teachers coming up from the South. The more teachers the better, but it is an area of concern.

Another area I would like to highlight at this time, Mr. Chairman, is within the different district education councils and district education authorities. I'd like to get some information from the Minister or his staff on who is unionized in the facilities that we have in the Northwest Territories. Where are they unionized? Do all DEAs fall under the same category or are there differences? I will leave my general comments at this time, Mr. Chairman, and hope to hear some responses. Thank you.

General Comments
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 314

The Chair Leon Lafferty

Thank you. Minister Ootes.

General Comments
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 314

Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will deal with each of the issues. Mr. Roland had three issues. First were his comments with regard to the student housing in Inuvik for the college. He is correct that this dates back a long way. What we have done in Inuvik, Mr. Chairman, was first of all concentrate on ensuring that we had the ability to put up a new college building, which is proceeding and will be started this particular summer, fall, et cetera, and that was of great concern to us to ensure that got built. The student housing did become a concern, but what we did was turn to what is referred to as the Blueberry Patch. We presently have 30 units in that particular housing complex, and 18 units were turned over to the developer and we are getting 10 of those units back. Mr. Chairman, that will accommodate the number of students that are attending and the housing that is needed for the Inuvik campus. We additionally have access to eight more units if we do need them, Mr. Chairman. These are not new units, we recognize that, but it will solve the problem for us for the immediate future for the next number of years; three, four or five years.

What the honourable Member mentioned was reference to the money that is being put into the projects in Fort Smith. We have approximately $1.3 million for the Green House, $1.3 million for the Brown House and then some $2 million for the replacement of 15 units. This is necessary, Mr. Chairman, because first of all, we have an order from the fire marshal that we must address the units -- the Green House and the Brown House -- or they will be shut down and he or she wants a commitment. I'm not sure if it was the fire marshal, but we've got a report from the assistant fire marshal, I believe it is. Anyway, she said the units would be shut down if we didn't address the issue. Additionally, the units that are due for replacement, we are in dire need of those units, Mr. Speaker, for similar reasons. The current housing is extremely old, 40 to 50 years old there and if we don't protect our assets in the community, then we could face a critical problem in Fort Smith.

Now, I think what may be throwing the situation somewhat was some information that was passed to the standing committee that indicated there were vacancies of 50 some beds, I think is what it was. I am going to try to explain what happened here. We have a place called Breynat Hall, which was a residence for high school students and at one time two students were accommodated per room. The college doesn't find that acceptable, and it is not fair to the individual adults going to the college in Fort Smith. In some cases, in emergency cases, people are doubled up in those units, but I think that is where the figure may have come from, that there was extra space there. That, in our opinion, is not correct because the college is very adamant that they don't want to double up people except in emergency cases, because they are not suitable for that. As well, Breynat Hall is very old and there are some problems with that particular unit.

So there has been a need to identify, Mr. Chairman, the protection of our assets and ensuring that the 40 to 50-year-old buildings are addressed and we've done that, Mr. Chairman. As well, I can't avoid the Brown House and the Green House. There was a comment, well, why couldn't we switch the money? I still don't have enough money, Mr. Chairman, to address the issue in Inuvik because that particular need is approximately $4 million. I can tell the Member, that I've not given up on Inuvik. I'm talking with the Minister Responsible for the Housing Corporation, I don't know whether there is any resolution there. I did speak previously about the possibility of approaching it on a private sector basis. That didn't work for us. It didn't work for us because the price became too much for us. So if I may move on, hopefully that clarifies the situation. I can provide further answers if there is a need to do that on the housing situation.

On the teacher education program, yes, we are encouraging our students to get their degrees. We're providing support for five students per year, to go back to school. Plus we offered, also, for them to do it by distant education because some teachers may find that in a community, with a family, it is too onerous and difficult to move from the community to get their degree, so we offer it part time. The question, of course, that has been asked is why can't those particular graduates, from the programs that we have, get jobs? In all cases, we have identified this as a maximizing northern employment issue and we have indicated that we would guarantee employment, but it doesn't mean employment in the particular home community or the community that they may wish to live in. But they do receive priority hiring from our department side, and we are in touch on a constant basis with our DECs to address this issue. So hopefully that answers that particular question.

As for the DECs and DEAs, who is unionized; all teachers, administrators and classroom assistants are unionized. However, the DEAs may hire individuals outside of the union to be classroom assistants, but there is a proviso there to ensure that the benefits and the hiring process is the same as for a unionized individual. So there can't be any discrimination in terms of employment conditions and so forth, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

General Comments
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 315

The Chair Leon Lafferty

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Bell.

General Comments
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 315

Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The first point I want to address is the one that Mr. Roland has already started us off with, and this is the capital allocation process. When the department is looking at its highest priority needs and deciding where it is going to spend its capital dollars, I would assume that if we take the college, for instance, that a campus with a wait list for student housing and a campus that isn't allowing any of its local students into student housing because of the shortage of space, would rise to the top ahead of a college where there is excess capacity. I believe that we are getting accurate information on the facilities in Smith and that they are very old and they do need to be renovated or repaired. It sounds like even Breynat Hall, which isn't on the list, is very old and needs some work. But I would question whether or not a lot of this renovation needs to be done when we have a massive waiting list in Yellowknife at Aurora College. There are fire code issues; those certainly need to be addressed immediately. I would like to ask the Minister to give us information, again, because when the committee asked for this the first time, it looked like there were huge vacancies in Fort Smith in college housing. This was even after Fort Smith students were allowed to enter into the college housing and they are allowed to do that as a last resort when there is nobody else in queue for that housing. Fort Smith students are allowed to take those units and they were certainly the community most represented in those housing units, more than any others. You would see in Inuvik and you would see in Yellowknife, no Yellowknifers, no Inuvik students in those respective campuses. So let's just take Breynat Hall. If we accepted that we are not going to have any doubling up of students, how many vacant rooms do we have in Breynat Hall right now, even after Fort Smith students are admitted, in this current year? Thank you.

General Comments
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 315

The Chair Leon Lafferty

Thank you. Minister Ootes.

General Comments
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 315

Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. The occupancy of the housing units in Fort Smith, we've checked into them and the picture that was provided at the time for the committee was a point in time that I haven't been able to specifically point to. Today we have had some recent reports on the amount of occupancy and it is nearing 92 percent. The difficulty we have is if we do not do replacement of units and renovation of units, then if one or two of those units gets shut down, then we would have an overcrowding problem in Fort Smith. As I mentioned, Breynat Hall may have been the reason why some figures came forward that we had empty beds, but that is not the college policy.

I would like to also state that with respect to the Fort Smith students utilizing the facility, it is naturally not the policy of the college to encourage that, but it is allowed in Fort Smith. If the committee is not in agreement for allowing that, that is fair enough. I can certainly bring that to the attention of the board. The board, itself, did point out to me that there is a residence need in Yellowknife that is a high priority for the college. There is a real challenge with that, Mr. Chairman, as you know because we do not have the availability of housing in Yellowknife. As well, the college board has asked that we look at a campus location for the college in the future. If we are going to get into any kind of planning for the college, then we don't want to get into a haphazard approach to addressing the issue of accommodation. I know the accommodation needs are here, but we need to look at it as a larger type of project and I'm not sure whether we can find the funding to address just the residence problems here in Yellowknife. We have renovated three floors already at Northern United Place, Mr. Chairman. Hopefully that helps to answer some of the queries the Member has.

General Comments
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 315

The Chair Leon Lafferty

Thank you. Mr. Bell.

General Comments
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 315

Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Well, I guess it is difficult for me to accept that the information that the department provided to the standing committee was taken at an unknown point of time. I mean, somebody tabulated that information, then somebody has to know where and when that information was tabulated. Ninety-plus percent vacancy -- by the way, I will back up -- I don't think committee has any objections to Fort Smith students staying in those housing units. If they are vacant and there are students from other communities staying in there, why the heck wouldn't we want Fort Smith students to be able to take up that vacant housing, it only makes sense. I think what we are saying is, fine, Fort Smith students are taking up vacant housing, but even after that, there are still vacancies in Fort Smith for college housing. We are going to sit down and identify top priorities and compare that to Yellowknife where there is a waiting list. There is not a single student residence vacant and there are no Yellowknife students staying in that housing. It doesn't seem to me that when the priorities shake out in the capital planning process, that we've got our priorities in line here. I accept that the fire code regulations have to be dealt with immediately or else we have to move students out of those units, and I guess my questions still are around Breynat Hall. The information we had -- and the Minister hasn't given me anything contrary to what I received the first time -- was that there was a huge vacancy in that building. I accept that it's old, I accept that it probably needs work, but is there vacancy in that building? The information that we had was that almost half the units were vacant.

General Comments
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 315

The Chair Leon Lafferty

Thank you. Minister Ootes.

General Comments
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 315

Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The information that we have for the following enrolment at Thebacha was 153 units were occupied and 91 percent occupancy rate in Fort Smith for the fall.

As I explained earlier, as a residence, Breynat Hall is designed as a high school residence to accommodate two students per room and then they have areas for kitchen units and so forth. It may be that it was counted as beds. There are 104 beds in that particular unit, but the college does not promote the occupancy of two adults per unit in that particular building. They find it very unfair to the adults. It's not designed for that. That may have been where the idea of vacancy came from.