Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In keeping with my notice that I gave yesterday, I would like to ask for the breakdown on the other expenses of $1.142 million. Also, maybe I should just add here that there were a couple of breakdowns for other expenses that I asked for under Finance. I appreciate that that department has been dealt with, but given that we have the same Minister here, I just want to get a commitment from him again that he will provide me with those breakdowns that weren't provided yet. Could I get a breakdown on this particular number, please? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, we will have that provided to the Member from the other department. In this section of directorate, I believe the Member is referring to the $1.142 million and breaks down

in this way: travel and transportation, $173,000; materials and supplies, $54,000; purchased services, $89,000; contract services, $133,000; fees and payments, $4,000; other expenses, $689,000.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Ms. Lee.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. So we have other expenses under other expenses. I just want to make a point here, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if the Minister as Minister of Finance could comment on whether or not there is any better way to be more transparent in the way we debate and pass budgets, Mr. Chairman. I do believe that the exercise we're engaged in here is very important. This is the money that we're approving for the government to spend on behalf of the people and the least we could do or ought to be able to know is what it is that we're allocating the budget for. I understand that you can only put so much on this booklet called main estimates and there is an agreement as to how we are going to categorize them and the four main areas that we have are compensation and benefits, grants and contributions, other expenses and amortization. I know that in many cases the grants and contributions section is very well laid out. I mean, something as small as $10,000 in grants are laid out. But for some reason there's a practice, and it seems to be accepted, that other expenses items will go unnoticed or at least it continues to be lumped up. FMBS is one of the smaller departments in this area, but as we move on we're going to see divisions in some departments under other expenses that amount to millions of dollars and I think it's incumbent on all of us to know what it is, how those dollars are allocated. I would further submit that it's the Minister's obligation to show us. Having said all that, can I now ask for the Minister to give a breakdown of what the details are under other expenses in the amount $689,000? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I had to ask what the other expenses were, as well. They are for the TSC and the systems and communications chargeback. So these are chargeback amounts for systems and communications, as well as the TSC services for the whole department.

As well, taking the Member's comments and concerns of how we can better coordinate the delivery of the budget process being more informed, in that I'd be happy to sit down with Members and see how we can improve on the delivery of this information. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On that, the amount for the chargeback to TSC and systems and communications, am I to understand that TSC...I mean, it's a little confusing here because TSC is within the mandate of this FMBS, but is that the money allocated for this section is charged for the services they use from TSC even though they are TSC? Oh, no, this is the money that directorate would spend to get the services from TSC. Then I would have to ask why it is that this directorate needs to spend that much money on TSC. What is the major work that they need from TSC? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This amount shown under directorate accounts for the other sections within FMBS and it breaks down to $266,000 for the system and communications chargeback and then the TSC chargeback, and every department has to pay into this. So although it's a central agency function, every department pays its portion of receiving the service and our amount works out, for 2004-2005, to $420,000. That breaks down to how much equipment we use or have in use and service provided, as well. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Ms. Lee.

I have no further questions on that item. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I agree wholeheartedly with Ms. Lee and her line of questioning on this. Having been my first time through this budget process, we didn't have the benefit of going through the business planning cycle before we went through the draft mains; but, as a new Member, it's very confusing. I found a lot of unanswered questions. The term "other expenses" is fairly open to interpretation.

Two of the things I'd like to see come out of this exercise and maybe budgets in the future, I'd like to see -- and I spoke of this in the House yesterday -- the travel budget broken out by department so when there's a government-wide 25 percent reduction in travel we can actually see that that 25 percent reduction has been met. When travel is not budgeted, I have some difficulty with that.

I also have difficulty with trying to put a number on contracted services. I know that each department does have a number of contracted services. Members were provided with a blue book that accounts for a tremendous amount of government spending on contracted services. I'd like to see some more detail, I guess is what I'd really like to see. That's a question I'd have for the Minister. What is the process that we can see some of these changes take effect for next year so that when we're going through this process we can see what some of these other expenses are? The way it's laid out right now it's very confusing.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, as we go through this exercise and go through what would be the normal process, departments begin their budget process in June preparing for the business plan presentation to committees in September. At that time there will be much more detail involved. There will be a lot of information provided that normally doesn't show up in the main estimates document. We can definitely include more information in the business plan process. It is a lot of information. There would be a lot more paper and to what detail do we want to get down to. I'm committed, as we go through the next cycle, especially the business plan cycle, I'm sure the Member will see much more detail as we go through that process. Then from those business plans, the first year of those business plans are drafted

into the draft main estimates and we end up at this process. The Members will have much more information available to them during that business plan cycle. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess another question I'd have is how are travel budgets arrived at in your department and in other departments? In the formula that I found consistent through the various departments was you take the number of employees and multiply it by $10,000 and then you arrive at a travel budget. Is that the case? Maybe the Minister can let me know how it is they arrive at a budget because I don't think there is a budget. That's what I'm getting at, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, I did sign off letters yesterday evening in response to the Member's questions in the House about the travel budget and what it amounted to. Within the FMBS it's not a percentage per employee. The different sections within FMBS go through a process of planning what trips they would be required to be on and billed on that basis. There is a process used for coming up with estimates and requirements the department would have for travel. Again, that information should be in the hands of Members, if not today then very soon. I did sign off the letters showing the 25 percent reduction that resulted. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, Mr. Minister, I am in receipt of that letter and the accompanying information that was with it. The question that I have though, in the information that you provided it just goes based on actual expenditures and not an actual budgeted amount. I know travel a lot of times is a difficult thing to gauge. Your needs might change over the course of the year and people might need to travel when they weren't supposed to. I'm just wondering, what I was looking for was budgeted amounts, not actual expenditures. Working off of budgeted amounts it's a lot easier to see the 25 percent reduction. I'll ask another question after the Minister answers that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Minister.