Good afternoon, colleagues. Item 2, Ministers' statements. The honourable Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation, Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I rise today to inform the Members and the general public of a change to the planned implementation of the new rent scale.

Mr. Speaker, in 1995, the public housing rent scale moved from a flat rate of 25 percent of income to a sliding scale of between 6.4 percent and 30 percent. This was done to bring our public housing sector more in line with other jurisdictions across the country and to ensure that public housing remained available to clients in need. This change was originally scheduled to take place over a four-year period from 1995 to 1998 but was halted after only the second year by the government-of-the-day.

As Members are aware, the 2005-06 budget for the NWT Housing Corporation calls for this moratorium to be lifted and for the final phase-in to be completed. Our original plan was to make this final change over a two-year period with the largest element of the change taking place in year one. Based on concerns raised by Members, I am pleased to announce a new implementation schedule which will spread any changes equally over a two-year period.

---Applause

Under this new schedule, Mr. Speaker, tenant rent will average 13 percent of household income. This is well below rents in other jurisdictions where 25 percent to 30 percent of household income is charged for public housing. Over 86 percent of our tenants will see increases of less than $100 a month and over 66 percent of tenants, including all students and people receiving income support, will see no rent increases.

---Applause

As always, Mr. Speaker, seniors will continue to pay no rent for public housing.

It is my hope that the Members of this Legislature will support this new implementation plan. Information on the rent scale implementation is available by contacting local housing organizations or through my office. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, today I rise to talk about shelters or what some people in this House might call housing.

---Laughter

I like to use the term "shelter," because in many instances, that is exactly what people are living in, not a home or a house but an enclosure that protects the occupants from the natural elements.

Mr. Speaker, many of my constituents, especially families with children, are housed in squalid and unhealthy conditions. Their living conditions negatively affect their family fabric which holds them together. By this, I mean families are considering splitting because this will make public housing more accessible for them to move into.

Mr. Speaker, this is not an isolated incident and it's certainly not an issue that's new to the local housing authorities in our communities. People are taking drastic measures to deal with housing issues, measures that have long-term effects on all family members of the household, especially the children.

In most cases where I have been informed from conversations with my constituents, it's solely based on the lack of community consultation and support from the housing department for families who are living in extremely old and deteriorated housing units. It seems like the Housing Corporation is still revelling about the fact that they gave a family a house 15 years ago for a mere $5,000 and that they should be happy with that. Well, Mr. Speaker, many of these houses were 40-years-old 15 years ago and because the cost to bring them to an acceptable living standard today is considered too high for the Housing Corporation to invest in, people are left with no other option than to stay where they are or to fix the house themselves. That can be very difficult for a family with three or four kids, with no definite source of income because of high unemployment and little economic development in many of our small communities.

Mr. Speaker, everybody has the right to live in a safe, decent and healthy environment. I will ask the Minister of Housing to make a commitment to the residents of the NWT for a fair and impartial process in the consideration of housing needs of the people regardless of past

dealings, a commitment ensuring that housing clients receive solid service reflective of a good government devoid of any prejudice, bias and subjectivity. This is what my constituents ask of this government, to be mindful of the concerns of the residents of this territory to whom the government serves. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Hay River South, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, today we are attempting to shed some light on the challenges of affordable and accessible housing for northerners. Mr. Speaker, shelter is a basic necessity in life common to every person. In some circumstances, it is necessary for governments to become involved in meeting the needs of our people for adequate housing. As with everything we attempt to do, we are confined by fiscal realities. It is incumbent on us as legislators when developing programs, policies and investing in capital infrastructure, to ensure we balance the need for accountability with the need for flexibility and sensitivity to the realities of the very people we are trying to help.

Our role in meeting the needs of our constituents for basic housing should be a role that provides for fairness in affordability for those with financial challenges, adequacy for persons with special needs related to physical challenges and availability, where options are limited. All of these considerations must be applied with the ever constant factor of the diversity of our communities, urban or remote, market or non-market, et cetera.

Mr. Speaker, we also need to consider whether the shelter we provide is more appropriate through ownership incentives or on the basis of rental. A couple of areas I would like to focus on today are the flexibility that we allow local housing organizations to operate within, in meeting what can be sometimes the unique circumstances in their community and the needs of their clients; and two, how responsive are delivery of housing and investment in capital to the needs of our communities. For example, I believe that some policies have been developed and implemented which have created a serious hardship for public housing tenants. The application in the new rent scale in non-market communities did not provide enough time for tenants to make the transition from rents assessed for low incomes to the higher incomes many have experienced from opportunities created by development that's taking place.

If there are no houses on the market for sale, we did not give tenants enough time to transition into homeownership without assessing rents that were excessively high. For example, we know that when applying for mortgage financing, the first question asked is related to income: How long have you been employed? So a young couple suddenly blessed with a good job at the diamond mine would need time to consider construction and homeownership or rental options.

To my second point, we can't afford any housing boondoggles with our limited available capital. Too often we have gone into communities with the government-knows-best attitude to solving housing problems, only to find out later that there weren't any updates.

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

The Member is seeking unanimous consent to conclude her statement. Are there any nays? There are no nays. You may conclude your statement, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and thank you, colleagues. Mr. Speaker, this has resulted in situations like seniors' complexes sitting empty or underutilized and then market housing mobile units sitting empty.

Much planning and consultation must go into these types of initiatives with the clients they are intended to serve, prior to investing. Capital investment should be approached with a business plan no less thorough than if we were investing our own private money.

Mr. Speaker, I am not suggesting that there are simple solutions to the housing needs. These needs require careful exploration from the benefit of input from affected stakeholders. We can't afford investments and policies that miss the target of meeting the needs and assuring adequate, affordable and accessible housing for those who depend on us for it. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for North Slave, Mr. Zoe.

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Today, Mr. Speaker, I rise in the House to focus on a serious issue in my riding, and that is the transition from public housing to homeownership. The current NWT Housing Corporation policy on homeownership programs is creating an impossible environment for people to become homeowners.

Mr. Speaker, many of my people are employed with the diamond mines. According to the rent scale increase policy, anyone working at a diamond mine basically has no alternative but to consider homeownership. With household income, their rent will go through the roof with the new rent scale. Until such time as they find alternative solutions, they will be paying the maximum allowable rent for their unit; a huge increase in cost for them.

On the other hand, Mr. Speaker, if they owe arrears, they have to pay that off, on top of paying the high rent on their public housing unit before they will be considered in good standing with the corporation and eligible for a Homeownership Program. Sounds confusing, doesn't it?

In addition, Mr. Speaker, many people in my riding, because of their employment, were able to purchase trucks, skidoos, et cetera, for travel and hunting. These people didn't realize that these payments would put them in an undesirable situation of carrying a high debt load. Because of the impact on their net worth, banks won't even look at them for financing and, depending on the corporation's calculations, neither will they.

Mr. Speaker, these people have no alternative solution except those available through the NWT Housing Corporation. The core need for North Slave, excluding Yellowknife, is an astonishing 35 percent. We need to address these numbers.

Mr. Speaker, these are just a few scenarios as to what is happening out there with the countless policy barriers to homeownership. My people are being backed up against the wall. The Housing Corporation is supposed to be encouraging and supporting clients' homeownership for high-income public housing tenants, rather than overwhelming them with countless policy barriers to homeownership.

Mr. Speaker, I don't know of one person who would not want to own their own home. I think that anyone paying rent equal to a mortgage would rather pay into something that they own. Mahsi, thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Nunakput, Mr. Pokiak.

Qujannamiik, Mr. Speaker. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. You may have noticed that we are having a theme day on housing today. I will be speaking on the need to educate public housing tenants, who may have the financial ability to own their own home, on the dangers and pitfalls of purchasing their unit from the NWT Housing Corporation.

Over the last few years, Mr. Speaker, the NWT Housing Corporation has decided to sell off a number of their older units to those tenants or persons who can afford to maintain their own home. I know of a few elders in Nunakput who have taken on the responsibility of these units, Mr. Speaker.

The Housing Corporation has held a number of workshops for the local housing authority tenant relation officers in their regions and in Yellowknife. Mr. Speaker, the most important thing we have to do is make sure tenants are educated as to the true costs of running a household, paying a mortgage and paying for ongoing maintenance. I know there are a number of people in serious financial trouble because they did not understand the ramifications of signing a long-term mortgage.

Mr. Speaker, these people have told me that it might have worked if the program advisors did an adequate job in explaining that they will be totally responsible for the costs of the mortgages, land leases, taxes, fuel, electricity, water and sewer and ongoing maintenance costs. The point I'm trying to make, Mr. Speaker, is that all the new housing programs in the world will not work if there is not an adequate counselling and education program in place.

Mr. Speaker, we need to do more training of the staff at the local housing authorities, the district offices and headquarters to make sure everyone is adequately trained and ready to effectively counsel and educate public housing tenants who may be ready to move into homeownership. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes, Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As some of you know, in another life I had quite a bit to do with the provision of maintenance of housing in the Beaufort-Delta, so I am comfortable in providing my thoughts on what we need to do to provide public housing and affordable housing for those who can afford it.

As I see it, Mr. Speaker, the mandate of the NWT Housing Corporation is very simple: Make sure that there is an adequate amount of public housing for people who need it, and have programs and services available to make housing affordable to northerners. We have enough to do in the Northwest Territories, never mind past mistakes like trying to sell housing packages to Alaska and having the deal fall through and having to pay shipping both ways.

The NWT Housing Corporation should not be in business. I am also not in favour of the market housing initiatives, as I believe that local housing authorities do not have the manpower to take on additional duties. They spend too much time right now trying to extend the life of social housing units. I believe we could save money by replacing these old units and then there might be time to take on additional work.

There are some simple truths in government, Mr. Speaker. Too much administration costs take away from program delivery. Decisions made in the interest of the people, from the safety of Yellowknife, often have unintended consequences for frontline workers.

---Applause

This needs to be taken into account whenever new programs or initiatives are introduced. Now I am aware that the NWT Housing Corporation will be redefining its mandate over the course of this upcoming fiscal year. I would like to see them remember what they should be doing: providing and maintaining public housing stocks and helping with affordable homeownership options for the NWT residents. I stress, Mr. Speaker, options for NWT residents, not Russians, not Alaskans.

Let's keep the new mandate simple so people can understand the programs and services that fall out of the mandate. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Menicoche.

Mr. Speaker...(English not provided)

Mr. Speaker, I wish to speak with you today about the need in Nahendeh for housing; housing for singles and single parents in particular. Mr. Speaker, in my constituency, 25 percent of our households have a core need for housing. This means that there is an issue with suitability, adequacy or affordability with about 200 of the 754 households surveyed by the Housing Corporation; or, in the most simple terms, the types of housing we have now is inappropriate, too expensive, and there is just not enough of it. Yet over the next three years, Fort Simpson will only get 10 new single housing units and then that is it for Nahendeh for the foreseeable future, Mr. Speaker.

I am concerned that low-priced, single units are the most in demand for the disadvantaged person. However, income support no longer covers the cost of single unit housing, Mr. Speaker.

The solution is so simple. For instance, if the government would only consider building a little four-plex in Jean Marie River, that would cure 90 percent of all their housing issues, Mr. Speaker.

I am also concerned about single parents; the picture is even worse for them. The Northwest Territories has the fastest-growing single-parent population in the country. In the 1998 National Child Poverty Profile, it stated that children living with single mothers are more likely to be poor and, in fact, live in deep poverty and will remain this way longer. More aboriginal children live with single mothers. But instead of increasing our efforts to appropriately house them, the government revises the Housing Corporation's mandates away from social housing, Mr. Speaker. There are some simple solutions to our housing crisis in Nahendeh, but we need help for single people, especially those with children, and we need it right away. Mahsi cho.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Kam Lake, Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my Member's statement today is about the potential advantage of implementing a tax credit for interest paid on mortgages.

Mr. Speaker, even with the relatively low interest rates of today, a Northwest Territories resident purchasing a $250,000 home still pays anywhere between $10,000 to $14,000 a year in interest for the first 10 years of their mortgage. Mr. Speaker, the cost of living, especially housing costs, is so high in the North that individuals employed in the diamond mining sector often prefer to purchase a home for their family in the South and commute. We spend a fortune attracting professionals north, only to have them return south after a couple of years.

This government needs to be looking at creative ways to make it more attractive for people to put down roots, Mr. Speaker. If the Northwest Territories were to implement the type of tax credit that I propose, we would have a leg up over other jurisdictions and it would go a long way toward making homeownership affordable for low to middle-income earners.

This idea is not a new one, Mr. Speaker. The United States offers a tax deduction for interest paid on mortgages. Here in Canada, the short-lived Clark government proposed a tax credit for interest paid on mortgages in 1979. Unfortunately, their mandate ended before it could be implemented.

The tax credit idea is quite simple, Mr. Speaker. The system that was proposed in 1979 allowed a 25 percent tax credit for the first $5,000 paid in mortgage interest, with a maximum benefit of $1,250. In today's dollars, an equivalent maximum benefit would be 25 percent of $13,200, or a tax credit of $3,300. A tax credit has a number of advantages over the U.S. tax deduction. It directs more of the benefits towards lower and middle-income earners and homeowners. A cap also significantly reduces the potential cost of implementing the system.

Mr. Speaker, it's about time that we show some leadership and look at innovative and creative ways of making housing more affordable. Last year we saw a host of new tax measures come into effect. We had to stomach it because of our pitiful fiscal situation. The fiscal situation today is much improved. This year I'd like to see this government look into implementing tax breaks to help make homeownership in the Northwest Territories affordable. Mr. Speaker, I'll have questions for the Minister of Finance at the appropriate time. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Great Slave, Mr. Braden.

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. In the Northwest Territories today, we have social housing programs that are becoming social housing problems of enormous complexity. Mr. Speaker, we not only have issues that my colleagues have very eloquently outlined today facing us in their communities, but we have a very long-range problem in that the multi-year contract we have with the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, which today feeds our coffers to the tune of some $33 million, is slowly, gradually disappearing, Mr. Speaker. According to the terms of the takeover we signed with CMHC, I believe it was eight years ago, it's going to sunset. There will be nothing left of that after the year 2038, Mr. Speaker. This really spells disaster for many residents, especially those in smaller communities where there is such a heavy reliance on social housing.

Mr. Speaker, the 2004 housing needs survey by the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation tells us that of the 14,000 households in the NWT, about 2,100 of them are in need of repair; 1,400 of them are overcrowded; about another 1,500 say that affordability is their most significant problem. Mr. Speaker, given that the increases in population and changes in demographics are rapidly changing the face of the Northwest Territories and that we are losing our long-range multi-million dollar source of funding, how are we going to maintain public housing levels? Tens of millions of dollars are falling off our income sheet for the coming years, Mr. Speaker. We have yet to see a viable plan for ensuring that we will be able to continue to be able to afford a decent housing program for our people. Eight years ago we took on this responsibility, and I'm afraid we're not doing a very good job of carrying it through. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise to talk about the lack of a coordinated policy for housing for seniors and people with disabilities. Mr. Speaker, I don't think it's the responsibility of this government; I think it's the honest duty of this government to make sure that we address the housing needs for our seniors and disabled constituents. Mr. Speaker, I still speak firmly that we do not have a coordinated access program for barrier-free access housing, Mr. Speaker. It should be a principle of this government to make sure our seniors and our disabled constituents are treated fairly and properly in homes; where we do not treat them as shut-ins, but take care of them with the dignity they so rightly deserve, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, we may not be breaking any official laws. I can guarantee you that some bureaucrat out there will take a tape measure and say, yes, we're treating this perfectly to the letter of the law. But I'm not talking about building things to the minimum, Mr. Speaker. I'm talking about giving people their lives; I'm talking about giving them a life worth living, Mr. Speaker. So I'm going to say that this government needs a firm policy on how to help address the housing needs of those seniors and disabled people, Mr. Speaker.

This government needs to embrace independent living. We have people living longer and wanting to live productive lives. Again, let's not treat them as shut-ins. Let's give them a chance to live a full and productive life, Mr. Speaker, with dignity.

Mr. Speaker, a couple of months ago I brought a couple of units to the attention of the housing Minister. I have to, first and foremost, say that I do appreciate that he did send some people in there to see the Beirut-type conditions that those folks are living under.

---Laughter

Mr. Speaker, I hope he sent them in there wearing hard hats and safety vests because these were horrible conditions we had people looking into. I have to give compliments to the Minister for addressing that problem, first and foremost. But we can't stop there. Our government needs a policy to make sure these folks are living.

Mr. Speaker, that example, in closing, I'm going to say this was the first step. Finally, it's nice to see the Housing Corporation move their stone feet and get into this race and deal with this problem. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Range Lake, Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to take this opportunity to tell you how displeased I am at the way the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation and this government have handled the market housing initiative introduced last year. Mr. Speaker, as you might recall, we had a very extensive debate on various aspects of this policy all during the spring and summer sessions in 2004. At that time, the government begged us to waive their own BIP policy and allow them to bring 22 trailers from Sherwood Park in a hurry, because this was a cheap and efficient way to bring needed housing for teachers and nurses into our communities. Time was of the essence; there were no other options, Mr. Speaker. They assured us that they would have an evaluation done and that they would look into creating a housing manufacturing industry in the North and they would come back with a comprehensive plan and they would not ask to bypass the BIP again. So where do we stand a year later, Mr. Speaker?

We have 14 out of 22 mobile homes sitting empty, dotted all over the North. Mr. Speaker, the department has no clear idea what went wrong. They can't figure out why the people who said they wanted them would not take them. They're asking, Mr. Speaker, for us to give them the benefit of the doubt to bring 22 more units, no questions asked, and waive the BIP again.

Mr. Speaker, I need to know where the government is heading with their money in the Housing Corporation. The Minister indicated, no problem, we can bring 22 more and if they're not taken up, we can give them to social housing, while Mr. McLeod indicated how labour-intensive and more costly trailers will be to maintain.

Mr. Speaker, I need to ask the government, is this where we're heading with the social housing policy? Are we going to become the middleman for trailer dealers from the South, Mr. Speaker?

---Laughter

Is this where the government is heading?

---Applause

I say this is not acceptable, Mr. Speaker. Are they going to continue to ignore the BIP that is applicable to everybody else? Mr. Speaker, all the answers I have gotten to this date are not acceptable. I don't believe it's fair to say to

the people in social housing that they can get leftover mobile homes. I don't think it's fair...

---Laughter

...for the government to say we can just waive BIP because it doesn't work for us. I expect the Minister to answer to all of the above. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Thebacha, Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, before we launch into the pressing housing issues of the day, I'd just like to take a moment to pay tribute to a relationship of love and commitment that has stood the test of time. On February 24, 1945, Albert Bonnet met Febula Heron in Edmonton and married her and, shortly thereafter, he took her to Fort Smith where they reside to this day. They have brought into this world seven children and they are now, as well, proud grandparents 15 times and great-grandparents eight times over. Today, Mr. Speaker, they're celebrating their 60th wedding anniversary.

---Applause

Truly a relationship that has stood the test of time and I'd like to thank you for honouring that accomplishment. I apologize for not being at their celebration on Saturday, but I wish them all the best in the world and, of course, may the next 60 years be as good as the first. Thank you.

---Laughter

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. I'm sure that I can speak on behalf of all Members in congratulating them as well, and wishing them the best in the future. Item 3, Members' statements. Item 4, reports of standing and special committees. Item 5, returns to oral questions. Item 6, recognition of visitors in the gallery. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta, Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It's my honour to recognize three people in the gallery, famous artists: Mr. Antoine Mountain.

---Applause

Also Margaret Donovan, who runs a gallery here in Yellowknife, from Tsiigehtchic.

---Applause

Also Victor Stewart, who's a recreation director in Fort McPherson. Welcome to the House.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Item 6, recognition of visitors in the gallery. The honourable Member for Kam Lake, Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to recognize Ms. Barb Barnet, who's joining us today. She's the co-chair of the review committee at the Workers' Compensation Board and also a constituent of mine. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Item 6, recognition of visitors in the gallery. The honourable Member for Hay River South, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you. It's good to see in our Chambers again, Mr. Speaker, Lydia Bardak who was gone for a while and she's back and she's a renowned social activist. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Item 6, recognition of visitors in the gallery. Item 7, oral questions. The honourable Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. My questions today are for the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation. I spoke today about the need for single-housing units in the Nahendeh region. If the Minister could explain to me how he intends to address the needs in the smaller communities in my riding -- like Jean Marie, Nahanni Butte, Trout Lake -- in terms of their single housing needs. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. The honourable Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we have completed two phases of a needs survey. Based on those needs surveys which identify where the majority of the core need is, we are now focusing our dollars and resources to where that highest need is. That's how we basically make our decisions on how we allocate; based on the needs surveys that have been completed.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. The Minister details about how resources would be allocated and now, the next logical question, Mr. Speaker, is what is the placement plan or the long-term plan of placing these units in the communities? What resources have they got earmarked for the Nahendeh riding communities? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, again, it's a process that we go through by way of a 10-year plan that we have developed. In that plan we are implementing the new needs surveys and also trying to ensure that we are able to accommodate communities that are in need, according to the survey. But more importantly, Mr. Speaker, it has to meet the budgetary criteria for the corporation. As we know, we are now phasing out social funding. Again, in order to meet that need, we have to work within the budget. So right now, Mr. Speaker, we have to allocate based on need, but also within the budget restraints we have.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I was just wondering if the Minister had enough time to review the federal budget, in terms of its allocation towards housing. Does it have implications for us and can we expect, in the foreseeable future, to address more of our housing needs in the regions? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am working in conjunction with Bill Erasmus through the AFN allocation. As everybody knows, in the budget there was $5 billion allocated for aboriginal housing. We are working closely with Bill and the people he has, developing the proposal to take forth to the AFN meetings this summer; to look at a plan for the North for this funding so we can access funding for aboriginal communities on top of the funding we have through our core funding allocations.

Again, in the budget, that's one area that we're looking at. Also, there is work that is ongoing with the federal Minister of Housing to see about establishing a northern housing strategy that will be developed between the three territories to give to the federal Minister and make him aware these are the territorial positions going forward for housing for northern Canada. How we've been dealt with it in the past is, because of our small population, we've been allocated based on per capita. Out of a $350 million pot of funds, we received $400,000 over three years. We cannot meet our challenges with $400,000 over three years. So we have to change the system of how the dollars are allocated, working with our federal counterparts and our aboriginal partners, in order to meet the needs in aboriginal communities.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Final supplementary, Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Just to take it away from the national level again and just bring it back to, say, Jean Marie River, their need is four units. When can the Minister assure Jean Marie River that it's not going to be 10 years from now, but three years from now or two years from now? Does the Minister have the ability to do that? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. One of the processes we're working on is trying to ensure people have a better understanding of our programs and services with regard to the IHP programs, independent housing programs, our EDAP programs and other programs that are out there. I think that because of the needs surveys we have, I know it's an issue here in the House, on how those dollars are allocated. But again, it's an application-based program. We do have program dollars going into Jean Marie River this fiscal year. Also, looking at the needs surveys that we do have, we are looking at revising our needs based on those communities that have well in excess of 30 percent in core needs. Again, we're focusing on those communities in need and improving the maintenance dollars we do have to improve on those units that are there, to improve the lives and housing in those communities. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Item 7, oral questions. The honourable Member for Great Slave, Mr. Braden.

Mr. Speaker, my questions this afternoon are for the Minister of Finance and it relates to our ability to cash flow the growing and inexorable deficit that we have in our capacity to afford our housing program. Mr. Speaker, we heard nothing at all in the federal budget yesterday on a national program, let alone a northern basis, for housing. The CMHC program, of course, is drying up. The Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation has suggested that maybe there's something out of an aboriginal program, but I'm not convinced and I want to go to the Minister of Finance to ask what our options are to cash flow for this very long-term and very real need; our government's housing needs. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. The honourable Minister of Finance, Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as we have in a number of areas and programs with our partners and the federal government, we are trying to come up with working arrangements with them to see if they can continue the dollars for the social housing program. I'm aware the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation is continuing on that initiative. The other areas we would have to look at are to come up with the dollars that are being reduced on an annual basis now. To come up with the additional dollars, we'd have to look at our own-source revenues if it's not going to come from the federal government. So we'd have to look at how we would fund that and that would include possibly more taxing or, hopefully as we go forward, our own-source

revenues, including royalties of the non-renewable resources sector. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mr. Braden.

Mr. Speaker, the Minister has opened up an interesting area: our own-source revenues. I'd sort of like to turn that around a little bit. What about our own ability to provide incentives to our partners, builders, developers, communities, aboriginals, development corporations, to step up to the plate to join us in this venture? But we would need to make taxation and revenue decisions to, as I say, provide those incentives. Is that something that we have in our toolbox to help build more houses? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we do have already within the toolbox, as the Member has mentioned, with the arrangements that have been worked out through the Housing Corporation, incentives that do help people get into their own homes and build homes in the Northwest Territories. The big one around that is EDAP, or Expanded Downpayment Assistance Program. That's one avenue. From a government end, from the incentive to either...I heard a Member earlier in their Member's statement talking about a tax relief of some sort or another. That's something we haven't looked at directly. Our goals are first to try to find more money from those that are directly involved and we consider the federal government as being a key part of that picture. From what we have available to us, one of the things that the Housing Corporation, for example, is doing is selling off some of the older units and single-dwelling units and looking at multi-unit facilities. Instead of one detached home, looking at a four-plex of that type, because we know that the operations and maintenance are lower for a multi-plex than for a single residence. So those are some of the areas they've been working on. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Minister be able to move these kinds of things forward through Cabinet? Because I know on this side of the House there's a lot of readiness and willingness to listen to some new ideas and some thinking outside the box. But right now I don't have much confidence at all in the proposals that are before us. Will there be some new and innovative ways of financing long term brought to the committee and this Assembly, Mr. Speaker?

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, through the Department of Finance, if there are some initiatives brought forward that we could look at that are sustainable from what we see our fiscal picture being, we would look at those and see if in fact they had some merit to go in and investigate a little further. We know, for example, with the reworking of the Housing Corporation and its mandate, there may be some opportunities there to look at going into the area of affordable and sustainable housing and how we would fund those as the Government of the Northwest Territories.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Your final supplementary, Mr. Braden. No further questions. Item 7, oral questions. The honourable Member for Hay River South, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask my questions to the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation. Mr. Speaker, it seems to be the proverbial debate when it comes to housing; whether or not the mandate of the Housing Corporation is to deliver social housing and incentives, or whether it is to create economic activity and economic development. Over the years, we have, as many other Members have said, tried to hang a lot of extra things on the delivery of housing in the Northwest Territories. We've tried to hang on it things such as training, manufacturing, jobs...It has just downright been the government getting into business through the Housing Corporation with funding things like door factories and all kinds of other things which have kind of clouded the picture of what we're trying to do here. I'd like to ask this Minister for his understanding of this mandate which, it seems, as has been mentioned, may be in the process of being refined. What is the prominent mandate of the Housing Corporation? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. The honourable Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, one of the core components of our initiatives is to look at the affordability, adequacy and suitability of housing for people in the North. I think the biggest element of that is affordability. We hear about people trying to get mortgages, people trying to get into homeownership, but the problem that we're running into is the costs of stick-built homes in the Northwest Territories are excessive. We do have a manufacturing directive that looks at manufacturing products in the North, and in the last 10 years we've spent $18 million in that area. All that goes back to the homeowner. I think it's important that through those three initiatives, looking at the affordability questions, the suitability and also the accessibility for people to be able to access these programs and not have these restraints in place. So right now through the mandate review, those are the three goals and objectives we're trying to meet through the new mandate change that we're going forward with.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thank the Minister for that answer. It gives me a very clear picture of where he's going because there is always that debate over more houses for our money or fewer houses, but now adding all these other things onto it. What I want to ask the Minister, is it conceivably compatible that we could deliver more affordable housing while at the same time creating northern economy through it? I think of the market housing initiative, bringing in units from the South. Can we accomplish that here in the North? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, with regard to the question that the Member asked, as it sits right now, nobody in the Northwest Territories has the certification to provide these types of mobile homes. In order to meet national standards, Canadian National Building Codes, and getting the certification that's needed to build these units, right now no one has that certification in the Northwest Territories.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I think it would be ideal to be able to provide affordable housing while, at the same time, creating jobs and economy in the North. Would the Minister, through the Housing Corporation, be prepared to pursue with potential interested parties the possibility of manufacturing certified homes in the North for northerners? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I believe that's the goal we are facing. We have spoken to respective companies that are considering working in that area. They are companies that are looking at the possibility of establishing such a business. But again, there are proposals that we are suggesting going forward with through the Business Development Corporation, the Business Credit Corporation and working with those other arms of government to help the entrepreneur or the business community that we've spoken to companies in Yellowknife and Hay River and also in Southern Canada who are considering making such a move. But again, it has to be economically sound and, at the end of the day, it has to be affordable. We have to develop a product we can afford at the end of the day to sell to our clients. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Final supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned, there are several initiatives we are working on. One is looking at the mandate of the corporation and we're hoping to have it ready by April 1st to take to Cabinet. Another area that I touched on earlier is the whole area of developing a northern housing strategy to deal with the federal government. In the federal budget there was a whole bunch of announcements looking at the whole area of conservation and looking at energy-efficient homes and whatnot. We have to build that into our building methods in the North, but also look at access to federal programs. So those are some of the initiatives we are working on.

There's also another initiative we're working on with my colleagues in looking at the whole idea of the pipeline and how are we able to access some of that infrastructure that is going to be built, or even have the ability to put this infrastructure together through partnerships or arrangements with communities and industry. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Item 7, oral questions. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, it's my belief that some of our government policies date back to the invention of the wheel. Mr. Speaker, this government, in my opinion, does not have a coordinated housing policy for seniors and persons with disabilities. Will the Minister answer the question, do we have any type of coordinated plan and policy? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. The honourable Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we have been working closely with the Seniors' Society. We do have a universal arrangement with them where we've funded them to work with us on different promotion packages, such as the seniors' disabled maintenance programs. We do have a lot of programs directed towards seniors with regard to the housing proposal. Again, we are working in conjunction with the

different organizations: the Council for Disabled People and the Seniors' Society. So we are working with them, but we also have programs that are directed to seniors and people with disabilities.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I further rise with a bit of concern because it's working with here, working with there, working who knows everywhere. I feel like Dr. Seuss, for goodness sakes. Mr. Speaker, I know we can do something like this and, by George, we have the paper, we have the hot air. Can we get a coordinated policy that organizes independent, respectful, dignified living for people who are seniors and people with disabilities? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, if you look at the programs and services that this government delivers, especially in the area of seniors and working with people with disabilities, we do have a lot of good programs. I'm not going to say they are all bad. We do have good programs out there. They do improve the living conditions of a lot of our seniors with regard to our repair programs and our maintenance programs. Also we are looking at the whole arrangement with regard to barrier-free access. The Member touches on that but, again, it's a national standard. We build houses in the Northwest Territories using Canadian Building Code standards. We have to follow those standards, it's a national standard. So again, because of the national implication and guidelines we follow, we have to be directed by those guidelines right now because we don't have those guidelines in house right now from the Housing Corporation.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I'd really like to know if this government believes that policies need to evolve with the time. Mr. Speaker, will this Minister agree that dignified independent living should be a priority of this government? Do we believe that's an important issue? Do we believe the quality of life is linked to good living for our seniors and people who have disabilities? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Krutko.

Again, Mr. Speaker, the Member keeps touching on what we're doing with seniors and people with disabilities. We are working with those groups. We are looking at our programs and services and because of the opportunity we have in front of us in reviewing our mandate, looking at the programs and services that we have and also looking at the possibility of revising policies and guidelines that could assist with regard to ensuring that we're able to follow those guidelines to meet the needs of our seniors and people with disabilities. But again, Mr. Speaker, I must make it clear to the Member that we have to ensure that we follow the national building codes that are out there on how we deal with barrier-free accommodation for people with disabilities and how we construct these units.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Final supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In no way would I suggest that we should build under the building code. It seems as if the building code is designed as a minimum and a lot of people stick to the minimum, but the minimum does not create quality of life, Mr. Speaker. I think the Minister agreed that quality of life is important somewhere in there. He did mention that policies are being revised. I think I've heard him even say we need respectful living with dignity. Mr. Speaker, my question then to the Minister is would he look into a policy that evolves with the times, that addresses the needs of the times, that would identify and have solutions through a policy for people who are seniors and people who have disabilities? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, with regard to establishing a policy of dealing with seniors and people with disabilities, I don't see it being a problem. I think that's something we can look at. We have an opportunity now. We're reviewing our mandate going forward with a new Northern Strategy and also looking at how we are going to be dealing with these people. So with regard to the Member's questions, yes, we can develop such a policy and I will bring that forward for the Member once we have it in place.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Item 7, oral questions. The honourable Member for Range Lake, Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, further to my Member's statement, my questions are to the Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation. In anticipation of his answers, let me just state that challenging the government on these policies does not speak to anything about us not caring about social housing. I just wanted to say that. I believe that it's an accepted premise here that we all want to work to increase housing in the North and meet some of the housing needs. My issue with the Minister is the way in which this market housing initiative was brought up and how it was implemented. Given that there are only 14 uptakes out of 22, and given all the kinds of problems that were experienced, not to mention the fact that apparently there was a misunderstanding in the communities from

those people who might be able to take this on. So by any standard, Mr. Speaker, I believe that the corporation has failed in the grade and they don't deserve to move up to the next grade. So I'd like to ask the Minister why he thinks we should move up to the second phase of this market housing initiative. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. The honourable Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we do have a major housing crisis on our hands and this is one of the ways that we're trying to resolve that crisis.

We have to look at housing in the context of how do we get houses on the ground and get more accommodation in communities. This is one of the ways we're looking at. I think that to access 22 units at the cost that we have been able to, we talk about affordability and trying to get program services to make sure that the client that we're dealing with is looking at how these units could be occupied and also the rents that we're charging. That was the big concern under phase one.

For phase two we believe we are able to come forward with changes that will bring down that cost to almost $1,000 a month plus utilities for these units. Before we were looking at almost $1,300, up to $1,500, including utilities. Again, we have to look at it in the context of how do we provide affordable housing in communities.

Also, I'd like to let the Member know that we have, out of the units, nine units which are occupied and presently we have people looking at buying these units. I think you can't go wrong by buying a three-bedroom trailer in a community for $130,000.

I think it's important that now we have something there establishing a market in the community where we never had a market before and by having something that's affordable where individuals can afford to pay a mortgage on these units knowing that the cost is $130,000.