Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, may I encapsulate the last phrase that Mr. Braden was sort of asking or ranting about, which is we are a unique market and if I can encapsulate that by then proceeding to my questions, emphasizing that we are a unique market in the Northwest Territories. We are a unique market in Yellowknife and the runway addresses a unique market. It's a very strong market concept that could be quite useful to the territory, as well as Canada as a whole. Yellowknife Airport has been identified as a landing spot for emergency cases, but yet our airport is not of the size to address emergency situations, whereas the airport in Whitehorse can, as well as Iqaluit's airport can. So from a safety point of view, what is holding the territorial government back from addressing the safety need, as well as the long-term growth need when it comes to expanding the Yellowknife Airport runway? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Debates of Feb. 28th, 2005
This is page numbers 1591 - 1630 of the Hansard for the 15th Assembly, 3rd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was chairman.
Topics
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![Michael McLeod](/media/CACHE/images/polpics/14-michael-mcleod/1622d1e8b4c08541f4c67f1e03baf594.jpg)
Michael McLeod Deh Cho
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Yellowknife Airport runway is a consideration that we have in the long-term Yellowknife Airport plan. Right now we don't feel there is a real need for it. Down the road there may be a need for larger aircraft to use the airport in terms of bringing in more tourism trade or tourism traffic through this airport. There is some concern over the
safety factor. We still have been nominated as an emergency airport. We've seen a number of aircraft land, but we've had the discussion with the federal government and we will continue to do so. At this point, we don't have any immediate plans to lengthen the runway except for requesting or applying for land to reserve that area as part of our application for future consideration. For extension, we are not planning to do anything in that specific area.
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![Robert Hawkins](/media/CACHE/images/polpics/15-robert-hawkins/74556ab10297f7c142852f4245ca9325.jpg)
Robert Hawkins Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, again from the safety perspective before I proceed on to another direction of the airport, would the Minister be able to quote on how many in the last 10 years oversized airplanes have landed at this airport? Would the Minister be able to acknowledge and quote that? I know that we've had some that have arrived with very interesting circumstances, yet they needed to land in the emergency context at the Yellowknife Airport. So if he could quote that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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![Michael McLeod](/media/CACHE/images/polpics/14-michael-mcleod/1622d1e8b4c08541f4c67f1e03baf594.jpg)
Michael McLeod Deh Cho
Mr. Chairman, we would have to commit to providing that information for a 10-year period. We do know that over the last year, we've had three polar flights land at the Yellowknife Airport and we're probably going to see more over the next while. We are talking to Transport Canada and we have been, for some time, raising concern that these planes are landing at our airports that are not designed to accommodate these huge aircraft and the federal Minister has also heard from other jurisdictions, Nunavut and the Yukon that have the same problems. We have requested that we look at a mechanism to help us cover the costs of our staff, our crews that have to be called out if it is off hours. We have to pay for those costs. I mean, we can bill them back, but we should be able to deal with it better. We also want to have the federal Transportation department talk about ways that we can increase the size of our runways if we have to accommodate these large planes. So we have had those discussions. But as to the actual number, I'd have to commit to get that for the Member.
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![Robert Hawkins](/media/CACHE/images/polpics/15-robert-hawkins/74556ab10297f7c142852f4245ca9325.jpg)
Robert Hawkins Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Minister. You led very nicely into my next line of questioning regarding the airport, which is with regard to the polar flights. Mr. Chairman, I believe it was last week our federal Transportation Minister, as well as the U.S. Secretariat have agreed to engage in opening up the skies in North America, which will slowly proceed to again reaffirm the importance of the polar flight route. Again, emphasizing the importance of the Yellowknife Airport, in which we only had three emergency calls last year; safety goes beyond actuals. It's the reality that we have to be there and recognize some of those points raised just a moment ago; how we are engaging on our federal counterparts about again reaffirming that we are an emergency airport on the polar flight routes, because these are opening up every day and we'd be foolish to think they're going to get slower. If anything, people are going to be flying here on a regular basis over our skies. As well, maybe the Minister could emphasize the area of whether the territorial government has any dialogue at all with their air transportation folks with, say, understanding or at least some acknowledgement of who flies over the territorial skies. Do they have to engage the Northwest Territories government Transportation section in any way if the polar flights cross our airspace? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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![Michael McLeod](/media/CACHE/images/polpics/14-michael-mcleod/1622d1e8b4c08541f4c67f1e03baf594.jpg)
Michael McLeod Deh Cho
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we indicated that there were three large aircraft that landed and used our runway in Yellowknife this past year, but it should be noted that there were a lot more calls that came in where there was potential that they wanted to use the airport and didn't actually use it.
The question regarding whether there is a need for these planes to contact the Yellowknife Airport when they are crossing airspace or our area is a good point. It's also a real sore point with us, because there is no requirement for the air carriers or the companies to contact us. There's not even a requirement, at this point, for the companies to inform us that we have been nominated or selected as an emergency landing facility. So there are really no early indicators, until we get a call that there is a need to use the airport and land. We have met with the federal Minister, Mr. Lapierre, on a number of occasions now. We have also met with our counterparts from the other territories. They have the same concerns and we've raised it with the federal government on many occasions. Transport Canada has recently indicated to us that they are undertaking to do their own assessment of the airport requirements in the northern part of Canada on what the requirements are to support international, polar and high altitude traffic and we're still waiting for that report. I'll stand corrected on that issue, Mr. Chairman. The deputy minister indicates that the report has just come in. So we have it now and we will be reviewing it.
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![Robert Hawkins](/media/CACHE/images/polpics/15-robert-hawkins/74556ab10297f7c142852f4245ca9325.jpg)
Robert Hawkins Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, by no way am I implying we need to discourage northern travel and the Minister didn't allude to that, but I want to make that quite clear that this is a reality of our future and we need to embrace this opportunity, as well as enhance it. That being said, I appreciate his acknowledgement of the flying over and the sense I get was they call us five minutes in advance. I mean, this is more of a metaphor, but they call us and say be ready because we may be coming to your airport. So whether it's a 15-minute radio-in or it's an hour radio-in isn't so much the point. The fact is we know when they're coming, but we don't know when they're going over us.
I would certainly like a debate on policy in the context of putting forward a unanimous position, which is we want to be kept in the loop. From the sound of what I think the Minister was alluding to, other territories are having the same problem. We're left out of the loop and whether it means that they're flying over, they should at least acknowledge they're in our airspace. I don't believe in being silent on northern sovereignty. I think that's an issue that this House leaves by the wayside a lot of times. I would like to hear it screamed and trumpeted much more and with that sort of little rant, I say on the side I tip my hat at Mr. Danny Williams showing sovereignty in the Newfoundland perspective. Although, I have to admit I
was a little concerned on the flag lowering side, but very happy to see them raising it again.
I think our government needs to emphasize our position in Canada. I think it always has to be kept in a respectful context. It almost appears as if it's on a need-to-know basis at this regard and I'm very concerned about that. I would like to hear today that the Minister is working towards that so we can break down that wall, again to reaffirm and assert continually our northern sovereignty and our northern position, because I feel that we should be part of this equation. Again, to encourage them not to discourage these flights, but also I go back to what I was saying earlier, which is I'm taking the point of view of a safety perspective that if the Northwest Territories or Yellowknife is being nominated as a potential landing zone for these types of flights, I have serious concern that we're not dealing with something over the long run.
I will acknowledge and I would emphasize my appreciation that the Minister has made clear that he quoted three last year. That probably means wheels on the ground, but I hope you also include the potential call-ins that we may have. Again, I think this builds a case just on the emergency side. I haven't even begun to talk about the tourism side or just the national side of what this would bring, the international side which would bring maybe more Americans here, or the international side which bring the Japanese here. I mentioned last week or the week before about my enthusiasm about bringing them here to the Northwest Territories.
That being said, my long little-winded rant, I would like to hear that the Minister will engage clearly on the federal level that we have a sovereignty issue here. We would like to be in the loop. I would like to hear the Minister emphasize today that if the word priority isn't a word, I would like to hear him emphasize that this is a priority, that we want to do something with this. I know it's not a budget item, but I certainly would like to hear that we are going to address this as a priority because, from an emergency point of view, I think it's quite a solid anchor that could have massive economic spin-offs that benefit the whole Northwest Territories. Lastly, I would like to hear some encouragement from the Minister about his consultation with Regular Members. I know this is a good Minister and he does engage Members from time to time and I would like to hear that as well.
So those three major points and he can slide in a few extra good comments, I'm sure. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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![Michael McLeod](/media/CACHE/images/polpics/14-michael-mcleod/1622d1e8b4c08541f4c67f1e03baf594.jpg)
Michael McLeod Deh Cho
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, this issue only became a problem a very short time ago. The issue of polar flights and us being nominated as an emergency landing airport probably came about three years ago and it has been a problem and it has been growing ever since. I want to assure the Member that we have had good discussions with the federal Minister. We've been very clear that it's a concern that we have to deal with. We no longer can tolerate short notice on some of these emergency landings and the costs incorporated with it and we want to see that resolved. Having said that, it's not our position to say no to any of the aircraft that have an emergency. I mean, we'd never even go there, but we want to ensure if the aircraft are going to land, then they should cover our costs and we should be in a position where our facility is safe. If it takes expanding the runway in order for our facility to be safe, then that should be something we have a way to pay for. We certainly don't want to be in a position where we'd have to incorporate a new fee or something of that nature to cover an expansion that aircrafts from other areas or other parts of the world are going to be utilizing in emergency situations. So we'd like to see a way for the federal government to do that. We have raised it with the Transportation Ministers. They know our situation, I spoke to it personally. Other Ministers from the northern regions have also spoken to it. So the federal Transportation department is very engaged on this issue. They know our situation and they have assured us that it's something they want to deal with now; have a report on it and we will be looking at that. Thank you.
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![The Chair](/media/CACHE/images/polpics/15-david-ramsay/870bc4b3caf4a9cbdfcbd18b8ce4332c.jpg)
The Chair David Ramsay
Thank you, Mr. Minister. I've got Mrs. Groenewegen next, then Mr. Zoe and then Ms. Lee. Mrs. Groenewegen
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Groenewgen
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With respect to Transportation general comments, I'd like to start off by telling a little story about a trip I took to Hay River before Christmas. I was on my way home to attend some constituency events and merely driving down the road towards Fort Providence, only to get there to find out that the ferry had been out of the water for several hours and had not been operating and there was quite a large number of people congregated in Fort Providence at the Big River Service Centre and outside and around and within Fort Providence.
Mr. Chairman, the point of this story is the fact that the information to the traveling public with respect to the ferry operations at that time consisted of a 1-800 number or an Internet site on which to check to find out if the ferry was operational. So fortunately for me I was able to arrange for alternate transportation to Hay River, leaving my vehicle in Fort Providence and getting home for the weekend to attend the events I was going to. Not so fortunate for lots of other people who were stuck in Fort Providence at that time. In fact, two or three busloads of little hockey players had driven all the way from Yellowknife to Fort Providence to find out the ferry had been out for six or seven hours prior to that. I'm sure that quite a few people that were stranded in Fort Providence that night could have had a story to tell. Some were off on vacations. They were catching planes south out of Hay River and there were a number of interesting stories at Big River that night.
So I subsequently was at the Hay River Airport on a Sunday night and constituents were complaining to me, saying that they had called the 1-800 number and that was Sunday evening and the last time it had been updated was that this is information effective Friday, 1:00 p.m., and Sunday night they were still getting that recording. It wasn't a long weekend, but that was the information on Sunday night. So it brought to light a communications problem with respect to the ferry operations. When it's 40 below and it's dark and you're driving down a road that could have buffalo on there, it's not a very pleasant prospect to have to turn around and drive back to Yellowknife. In my case, there would have been no flights out of Yellowknife again to Hay River until Sunday evening. This was on a Friday night.
So when I got back, I took it upon myself to suggest to the Minister that this was not a satisfactory and timely source of information for the traveling public and suggested that a sign flashing brightly at the outskirts of Yellowknife, letting people know if the ferry was operational or not operational, might be more appropriate. So I can say that on my next visit to Yellowknife I was pleasantly surprised to see there was indeed a large lit sign, which gave the status of the ferry at Fort Providence Mackenzie River crossing on the highway. There is one thing though, Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that would have been a better placement for that sign would not have been prior to getting to the airport turnoff, it would be after the airport turnoff because conceivably you could turn to go to the airport on the other side, on the backside of Kingland Ford, go to the airport, drop off a parcel or a person, go onto the highway and you would have completely missed the sign. So I would say the only place you could put it where you would not be able to miss it, would be beyond any turnoff into the airport. So that's the only recommendation I would like to make on that. However, I would like to commend the department that finally, in this modern day of technology, we do have that source of information available in a timely manner now. So I was pleased with the response to it and that was the only amendment to it that I would have suggested.
Mr. Chairman, the other issues that I would like to bring up have to do with the operations of maintenance at the airports. There was a proposed change to the hours of maintenance for the runways in Hay River, which I will speak to specifically. Any callouts after those hours of operation would have been at the expense of the air carrier. I didn't think that these hours worked very well for Hay River. It would seem that the winter hours would be Monday to Friday from 6:30 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. and 8:00 a.m. to 4:30 on Sundays, with no scheduled maintenance on Saturdays and there would be no scheduled flights into Hay River on Saturday. I guess in the summertime, it wouldn't be a problem but if it was winter and there was a requirement for snow removal, then I would suggest with the timing of the flights in and out of Hay River, these hours might make it difficult. I would like to ask the Minister if the carriers that use the Hay River Airport were consulted on these hours of operation for maintenance. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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![Michael McLeod](/media/CACHE/images/polpics/14-michael-mcleod/1622d1e8b4c08541f4c67f1e03baf594.jpg)
Michael McLeod Deh Cho
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am from Fort Providence and I certainly can share a lot of the issues around the closing of the ferry. It's actually something we have all grown to expect and we've seen and we all have our share of stories about how people have been stranded. We are hoping when the bridge is done, we will alleviate that whole issue. In the interim, we certainly welcome the recommendation made by the Member to post a sign so that people are not caught or don't have their radio on or don't phone the 1-800 number or don't check on the Internet. We don't want to see people travelling all the way to the Mackenzie River Crossing, to find out the ferry is not running.
We have had a sign for some time on the south side, at the Enterprise turnoff. We were able, after reports came forward, to access a lit sign and we have located that just on this side of the airport leaving the city of Yellowknife. We will again take the Member's recommendation. It's a solar-powered sign, so we can move it. There is a good point that there is potential for some traffic to be leaving the airport and not see the sign. We don't want that to happen.
On the issue of the airport operation and maintenance, I am not sure of the hours the Member is looking at. There was some discussion and we had planned to change our hours of operation. In the last while, we have had discussions with all the airports, all the operators and some of the carriers, and we've decided to set up our hours of service as published to accommodate all the scheduled flights. So I am not sure of the document the Member is looking at, at this point. We adjusted our hours so we can accommodate all the airports in the South Slave, as to the flight schedules.
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![Jane Groenewegen](/media/CACHE/images/polpics/13-jane-groenewegen/2acfed35ff877d98310bef57c5710cde.jpg)
Jane Groenewegen Hay River South
Thank you. That's good to know. I believe, in terms of general comments, that's all I have, Mr. Chairman.
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![Henry Zoe](/media/CACHE/images/polpics/11-henry-zoe/f806264046054a2efaef303b2779d5bf.jpg)
Henry Zoe North Slave
Mahsi, Mr. Chairman. I am going to touch on a number of issues, rather than deal with specific issues.
First of all, Mr. Chairman, with regard to the Deh Cho Bridge Corporation, I concur with the committee's report in relation to the comments they made. I am in agreement that the cost is escalating and the current estimate was $57 million, but it could go as high as $75 million, by what we hear. I would like to caution the department that, at the end of the day, we are going to end up paying for that bridge. If the cost escalates as they are predicting now, it's going to be us, the travellers, because the toll they are going to put on there is going to be more. I concur with what the standing committee is saying on this and we have to nail down a number we can stick to, a maximum dollar figure, so we know what the costs are going to be.
Mr. Chairman, with regard to airports, I want to make a few comments. I agree with what the committee said with regard to the combined-service building that is anticipated to be done at the airport here in Yellowknife. I guess the department should also consider the highway camp, so it's all in the same general area. I think the committee, if I read the report right, is suggesting that too.
With regard to the CARS program, Community Aerodrome Radio Station program, Madam Chair, it's going to be given over to a private contractor effective April 1st. I would like to encourage the department to work closely with NAV Canada and whoever the new contractor is going to be, to ensure that services continue to be delivered at a high level; and, that the northern contractors and northern employees are used to carry out this work as we have been doing with our government.
The other area I wanted to touch on with regard to airports is I wanted to know, Madam Chair, if the department had any discussions with the Dogrib Rae Band pertaining to the airport they have at the Edzo site. I know it's a privately-owned airport, but has there been any consultation or discussion to see if we could turn it into a public airport, as Wha Ti or Rae Lakes or Wekweti? The initiative has been taken on by the community, because the department was reluctant to put in an airport. This is
one of the few communities that bend over backwards to get their airports off the ground and they have done it successfully. I am just wondering if the department has discussed this with them. It takes money to operate a private airport. I want to know if there has been any discussion at all to see if we could move or assist them in terms of funding with their O and M or even to try to make it into a public airport, as we do in other communities.
With regard to highways, Madam Chair, and winter roads, I know the department is doing a lot of work in this area in other regions. I am more interested in the North Slave area. The winter road goes to the outlying communities of Wha Ti and Rae Lakes and also to Wekweti. My understanding is that Wekweti does not get a winter road on an annual basis. It's usually every other year, if I recall right. I wonder if the department had any discussions with the community, because I know that at one time the community was suggesting that maybe a new route should be undertaken, so that they would be connecting onto the other winter road that we have going to Wha Ti and Gameti, rather than going through the mine right now; going through Lupin. I wonder if the department had any discussions with regard to that.
The other area I wanted to touch on, Madam Chair, is highways; again, pertaining to our highway camp that we had in Edzo. Over a number of years, the department has been reducing the PYs in that particular camp. The people who are currently there have managed to stay quiet and not go against the department with what they are doing, but my understanding is they don't 'have a mechanic to service their equipment there, they don't have a clerk to do the paperwork there. They have a supervisor and, if I recall right, there are only four or five permanent jobs there.
I was there this weekend and I had the opportunity to talk with some of the staff. They would love to have it back as we did years ago when we weren't in a financial constraint with our government, but they never got those positions back and they are hurting right now. They are coping with what they have now. When equipment breaks, they will have to either bring it to Yellowknife or get someone out there. That's a big concern to me.
I am going to be following up in the next go-around, Madam Chair, so that we enhance that particular camp to the level we have here in the Yellowknife camp. My understanding is the Yellowknife camp has more PYs than we do at the Edzo camp. Even in the Minister's riding, his camp has more people than we do here.
So I just wanted to put the Minister on notice that, even though the department has been requesting that they reinstate these positions, nothing has been happening. I hope, through the next business cycle we go through, he takes a serious look at implementing these PYs back into that camp; especially the mechanic and the clerk position. There are other operators or trades people that were cut previously.
I am really concerned about the services that are being provided from that particular highway camp and the number of people who are doing the job. They are doing the job from Edzo all the way to Chan Lake and beyond. They are limited with the number of people over there.
Moving on, Madam Chair, I just wanted to say that I am glad that this Highway No. 3 work is going to continue on. Finally, it's going to be finished within another year and there will be a paving program starting at the other end, with the work that's been done this past summer. We are going to be seeing the conclusion, finally, of Highway No. 3 coming into Yellowknife.
Madam Chair, those are some of my general comments, but once we get into detail, I may have more comments. For now, I would like to ask the Minister to respond to some of the issues that I raised. Mahsi.
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![Michael McLeod](/media/CACHE/images/polpics/14-michael-mcleod/1622d1e8b4c08541f4c67f1e03baf594.jpg)
Michael McLeod Deh Cho
Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the Member for his comments. On the first issue regarding the Deh Cho Bridge cost overruns, I want to point out, first of all, we are not at a point where we have any final estimates. The true cost will come about in the form of a construction tender. That's when we will know where we actually are. There has been a lot of discussion over this issue. I should point out that we have an MOI, or memorandum of intent, that spells out that the cost be restricted to a point that can be accommodated to a $5 to $6 per ton charge. So we already have guidelines in place. Prior to us or this government signing a concession agreement, there would be a requirement to know the actual cost. We would have to see the actual tender before we could sign the deal for a concession agreement. We would not do that without firm prices. So I want to reassure the Member that there are some safeguards in place.
Regarding relocating the camp with the combined services building, that is something that we already agreed to. At the time the highways camps reach the end of their life, we could certainly consider relocating them to a more suitable location. If that location is the combined services area, we would do that. There are other facilities that probably could be accommodated in that area.
With CARS contracts with NAV Canada, that transition has been working out very well. The contract has been allocated by NAV Canada to a company called ATS Services. I believe they have a base here in Yellowknife and also in Fort Smith and they have an office also in Ottawa. So the transition there has been going good.
With the issue about the Edzo airport, we have not had any discussion with the community regarding that issue. We have not talked with the leadership from that community. We should also point out we have not had any requests to embark on a discussion regarding the airport itself.
The contracts for providing the winter roads in the North Slave area are expiring this year. We will be looking at the winter roads and doing an assessment and reviewing that whole contract again and going out to select a new contractor as our requirements have it.
The Wekweti road has always been a concern. We are very dependent on what happens at Colomac Mine in terms of cleanup in that area. As to having the resources to provide the road into Wekweti. There are very low traffic volumes coming to this community; I think they average about 18 vehicles a year. It's always the cost of providing that last stretch of road from the Colomac Mine to the community that has been distributed amongst the people who are bringing in resupply to that area. It's basically a
cat train road. We have had some contact with the community leaders. In fact, we have a meeting set up for this Thursday, with the chief and some of his representatives, to discuss the future of this road and the situation we are in with this road.
The Rae-Edzo highways camp, I would need more information as to the Member's comments on reductions at this camp. We have not made any reductions in that camp. We just tried to do a quick analysis from our staff here on when the last time there was a reduction at this camp. It's got to be at least six or seven years ago, or further. We have no plans to reduce any staff at that camp. We do not have a mechanic at that camp. The mechanic work is done here in Yellowknife. Maybe we could sit down with the Member and try to deal with some of the concerns he has with the Rae-Edzo camp. Thank you, Madam Chair.