Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Well, Mr. Chairman, would the Minister consider $60,000 per position to be a conservative estimate? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That could be high or low. I don't know. There's no way to say, because I don't think we even have a listing of the positions when that report was run that were vacant. So, you know, I have no idea what the average would be. It's possible that it's $60,000, it's possible that it's $70,000, it might be $50,000 or it might be $80,000. I don't know.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Well, for the sake of this argument, Mr. Chairman, let's just say it's $60,000 that's the average for the vacant positions, times 50 vacant positions system-wide right now that's about $3 million a year. So would the Minister concur that his department is being funded an extra $3 million right now for positions for which there are no people? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. No, that's a snapshot as of one day what the vacant positions were, not what they were through the course of the year. That's what I said; you would have to do a review of how long the positions had been vacant to come up with a number. So, no, I wouldn't agree that it was $3 million. Just for the record, at March 31, 2004, the department's free balance was $17,000. So it's not as if there's a whole bunch of room in the budget typically to manoeuvre.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, isn't it true that within the public service in any department at any given time on any given day, at least 10 to 15 percent of the positions are vacant? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Dent.

Mr. Chairman, that may be a question for Mr. Roland. It's not one that I can answer.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Roland, are you prepared to answer that question?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the average vacancy within government as a whole would vary in the area of probably 12 percent.

Thank you for that, Mr. Roland. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That is exactly what I said and that's what I thought. Mr. Chairman, being a government, then any department carries that kind of a vacancy that would lead me to believe there is a little bit of manoeuvrability within the Justice budget. In fact, the 49 vacancies would, even if some of them are in the process of being staffed, if you go with the industry standard for vacancy, there is still lots of room in the Justice budget to accommodate the $267,000 for the remand centre in Hay River so that we could keep that operational until such time as we have a chance to look at the numbers that the audit indicated were a little soft. Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think it's important, too, to remember that a position is shown as vacant when you run those reports, even when it's filled by a casual. There are an awful lot of positions, particularly at the North Slave Correctional Centre, which are filled by casuals right now because of the transition period now while we're waiting to see whether or not anybody is interested in a transfer who is affected. Those positions are still being held and filled by casuals. The positions won't necessarily be filled immediately until we finish our human resources plan, which is something that's been under development for a while. Again, without some detailed review, I can't tell you whether or not we have 10 percent of the positions in Justice vacant or not. I think it's important to remember that even when we do those runs, those 49 positions may have shown as vacant on that day even if most of them were filled with casuals. Because when a casual is filling the position, it still shows as vacant. We have been running with a very high number of casuals out of North Slave.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, let's just say that the department's projections are incorrect with respect to additional uptake and demand for justice services as a result of social impacts of

development. Let's just say that there's a lot more people in the Northwest Territories and there's a lot more crime associated with those people being here, and we, as a government, have to respond to that crime. We can't just say oh, well, it's not in our budget, therefore, we're not going to deal with it. What would happen, Mr. Chairman, if the government needed money, I don't know what they would call it, but even for a four or five-year period when there would be increased development, more people in the territory and an increase in crime? How would they finance their systems to deal with that crime? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If it turns out that more money is needed, I would have to approach the FMBS for support for a supplementary appropriation, which would come before this House. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Which is my point; if the Minister thought there was need for it, he would find the money. Correct? Thank you.