Thank you, Mr. Minister. I would like to thank you for your indulgence thus far, Mr. Cooper and Ms. Schofield. We are going to continue after a short recess. Thank you.

---SHORT RECESS

Thank you committee. Welcome back. We are on general comments,

Department of Justice, and I have Mrs. Groenewegen. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman I had an opportunity to just do a little bit of research. I had talked before the break a bit about the treatment of the casual and term positions and with respect to particularly the casual employees who worked at the justice and corrections facilities in Hay River. I was able to determine that when the Department of Justice went to Hay River to notify the employees verbally for the first time, at Dene K'onia, and they asked the casuals to leave the meeting. However, the casuals refused to leave the meeting and the indeterminates wanted them to stay, so they did.

My information, Mr. Chairman, is that never have the casual employees at Dene K'onia ever received anything in writing saying that their jobs were terminated or finished. I would like the Minister to confirm if that is correct. Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I said earlier, I had no expectation or I had no understanding that there had been a direct approach to the casual employees involved in this. I did say that they may have been in attendance at the meeting that full-time staff were notified at. I would expect that through the union they would have received some notification but, as I said earlier, I didn't expect that there had been a direct approach from the department.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to, for the record, indicate that of the 10 casuals that worked at Dene K'onia, these are the lengths of services for the 10: two months; four years and two months; one year and two months; three years and seven months; seven years and two months; seven years and six months; four months; three years eleven months; four years eleven months; and five months.

That is the length of service for the casual employees at Dene K'onia. I think the record indicates here that several of these employees -- at least more than half of them -- that had been there for four years or more. I guess the message is that when the government needed them, they were there; but when the government didn't need them, they were not even owed the courtesy of being told that the facility was closing down in any formal way or that their jobs were going to be gone. Even after eight years, they would not be notified that they didn't have a job anymore. Oh, it was only a casual job though, so...

Mr. Chairman, also with respect to the remand unit at the South Mackenzie Correctional Centre, the casuals were included in the meeting when the employees were verbally advised of the 5.5 positions being eliminated through attrition and nothing was ever said about the casuals, nor did they ever receive anything in writing. I just want to say that this is a bad mark on this government as an employer, that you could have people that were that dedicated to making themselves available to work for us, but we couldn't even take the time to notify them of what our government's plans were, so that they could make plans.

Now today, Mr. Chairman, the Minister says that he will talk to the warden and, three weeks before the changes are about to take effect, they will be notified. I wanted to put that on the record, Mr. Chairman. I think that that is not a very good reflection on us as an employer. I don't think that the private sector would ever do anything like that.

I would like to ask Minister Dent, Mr. Chairman, if there are any other changes anticipated. Of course, we went through business plans and the main estimates and now we are into already our first supplementary appropriation in this House and there are new changes that were not reflected in those business plans, which are taking place. I want to know if there are any other anticipated changes being discussed within this department, with respect to the delivery of correction services in the Northwest Territories. Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Neither Mr. Cooper nor Ms. Schofield can think of anything that has even been looked at in terms of moving into a supp.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to ask the Minister, Mr. Chairman, if after we shift in the fiscal situation, as everyone knows the way our system works, the business plans come out in the fall and there is quite a bit of time between then and when the budget session is held early in the year, if there was ever any thought given to putting any resources back into Justice as a result of new federal money which became apparent we would be receiving in the near future. Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As Members will know, following the review of the draft mains, the standing committees gave the government some advice on reinvestments or putting money back into the budget. The government did respond to some of those, but that was not specifically as a result of any specific pot of money. Obviously any new money that we had would be part and parcel of the reason for agreeing to it, but that was the process that was followed.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, what would it take to get the remand services in Hay River reinstated? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. At this point, the department has had $400,000 removed from its budget. The first year savings were only going to be $267,000 plus the $30,000 or so for the fencing, so we

are about $300,000 below, or in savings this year. That would rise very quickly to $400,000 in future years. So it would be an ongoing $400,000 additional funding that would be required in order to put it back in. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the Minister has heard the recommendation of the standing committee for the reinstatement of these services at the South Mackenzie Correctional Centre. Just about every Member of this House tonight has spoken of the desire to see services and programs stay close to the people that they serve. While we understand that there are different designations for different corrections facilities in the Northwest Territories and that theoretically they do serve people from across the Territories, depending on the classification or the security needs for that particular individual, Mr. Chairman, we've heard fairly widespread support here from the Members tonight.

I would like to know from Mr. Dent what the process is to get money back into the budget to reinstate the remand services in Hay River. Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The bottom line is that the department doesn't have that $400,000 in the next year, which is in this budget that is before the Legislative Assembly. I have heard, from around this table, an awful lot of requests for more spending in Justice; a considerable amount of spending in Justice. I know that the members of government have heard that request as well, but we are going to have to examine all the requests for spending and then try and respond as best as we can within the resources that we have during the next business plan process.

At this point if we were to keep going with that operation, then we would have to cut something else in the department. Would that be in drafting of legislation, would it be in legal advice to departments, would it be to our lawyers at the devolution table? It would have to be someplace where there was some reduction in services. In terms of government priorities and government spending, this clearly wouldn't have been something would have come forward if we hadn't had a reduced target to reach. Given the target that this government has set for itself in terms of the savings, if we have to take $400,000 out of the department, with what is left, this is the place to do it.

That doesn't mean that it's one that we are happy about or one that we would have proposed if we weren't challenged to make reductions. Any time you have to lay off experienced and dedicated staff, it is not something that makes you happy. We were challenged to come up with the reductions and this makes more sense than cutting somewhere else. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. I have Mr. Braden next. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To the topic of the proposed new courthouse; this, too, has been something that has occupied a fair amount of the committee's time. The expenditure of this amount of money on one facility, no matter what it is for or where it is going, is a very big piece of change for us.

Through this discussion, I have been more and more convinced of the need for this and the program that the department has laid out for bringing this project through. I saw efforts that the department had tried to do something collaboratively with the City of Yellowknife on an available piece of ground; regrettably, that hasn't come forward. We do, though, have the option of the land that the Commissioner already has access to and that is very close to the site of the Legislative Assembly.

Mr. Chairman, we looked at the revised feasibility study that was done in 2003. It very much echoed the findings of a study that was done in 1999 or 1998, which said virtually the same thing; of course, with a few more million dollars added to it. The judiciary is the third foot of our governance system in any parliamentary democracy and I am quite convinced that the financing of the building is something that, in the long term, is the right way for us to go. The sensitivities that have been expressed; the debate about whether this kind of money would do us better out in the communities or in the streets is a very good one. You can never argue against investing more money on the frontline, but the reality is that we do need an efficient, modern courthouse.

It is not a matter of having $41 million to spare and can we put it out here. It is an expenditure that the government would be making regardless. The factor that is the most convincing one for me, Mr. Chairman, is when we put the element of time into this and not just over the next couple of years; this is a building which I envision would be of a calibre of this building here or of City Hall or the DND building. They are substantial public institutions, they are built to the best of technology and they are going to be with us for many, many decades.

This is the element that I believe really turns, for me, the argument in favour of investing in this new facility and doing it now. We are also in a lease situation with our existing territorial courthouse facility, Mr. Speaker, that compels us to make this decision now.

The expectation that our justice system has is that the facility is being built in Yellowknife for sure, but it is not a Yellowknife facility; it is a territorial facility. I would ask people to give it that consideration as well. As much as I want to see and will continue to press for programs at the community levels in all our towns and cities and villages, this is an expenditure that we really should continue to proceed with. We have managed to do with the existing courthouse for 20 to 25 years now; the Minister has indicated that we find ourselves more and more going off-site to rent facilities. Consolidating this into one building is indeed the way to go.

I think the department does have a responsibility here or an opportunity to do some communication on this; to show us Members of the Assembly...We have seen a fair amount of paper on this and I would like the opportunity at some time, hopefully in the near future, to perhaps have a walk-through of the existing courthouse for as many Members as possible, to really see what the situation is there and where some of the improvements are going to be needed.

I would like to see some explanation and a communication plan that MLAs could take to the communities and show them and at least help people be better informed of what the need is. As I say, this is a major expenditure. Let's be sure that we do understand and see the need for it, and make the effort to help people be better informed. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.