Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, if I can, I'll answer the last question first. We do allow for a three-year average to estimate exactly what your income is over a three-year period rather than every year. That way some years if you're employed and other years you may have had seasonal employment, you're able to get a better assessment over a longer period than trying to do it every year. When people apply, we usually ask for a three-year average. Then, from there, we estimate their eligibility or not. We do look at it over a three-year average, then your income for that year where, like, you say circumstances may change, but in three years your circumstances don't really change that drastically. In one year, you may be unemployed or the following year you're employed and then you end up in seasonal employment. That way you get a more consistent precedent that's set on how your income is over a three-year period versus a one-year period.

The other question you asked was in regard to the CNIT and what people pay for the operation of a home and cost of living and whatnot. In regard to the calculations that we used, like I mentioned, in most cases it's 30 percent of your income, which is based on expenses. But right across the North our average expense for housing, what we charge for rent, is roughly around 14 or 15 percent in most of our public housing. So most people aren't paying more than 14 or 15 percent of their income. I think that also allows us the flexibility with regard to ensuring that when you do have those fluctuations that it doesn't really have that big an impact on people who are at the lower income threshold. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just have one more quick question with respect to 30 percent. I know that 30 percent applies to everybody's gross income. Things like child support payments and back tax payments and garnishees and all that is not an issue because it's all based on your gross income. Especially with our tax regime here in this country, everybody pays the highest taxes in the world and that's a big chunk of your gross income, also. So a lot of people really don't wind up with a lot of disposable income when it comes down to all the deductions that a lot of people have. I'm just wondering, is there consideration that the corporation would have to look at maybe going on a net income basis as opposed to what people's gross income equates to?

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, in regards to the rents that we do set, we do have a lot of income that we don't take into account in which it isn't calculated to determine what your rent is with regard to different taxes and also income tax refunds and whatnot. Those aren't calculated into your salary. But I think that because of the transfer of the fund to social housing is now going to be looked at through ECE in regard to a new calculation that they will be looking at for how to determine the different types of subsidies that are going to be in place. Right now it is based on the programs that we currently have, which is using the formula we do use based on your gross income.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Next on the list I have Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Continuing on with my questions from yesterday, I just have a few more questions on the Novel housing project. Madam Chair, yesterday I was asking the Minister that it may well be that ATCO is the company and this Novel concept is the thing to go with. I mean, I'm willing to accept that assumption, but what I think is the most important thing in terms of our job here is doing the due diligence test, making sure that things are transparent, and that the government, when it's talking about a $300 million project, whether the money's coming from the federal government or territorial government, because we're looking at the latest figure of about $118 million from the federal government if we can get the money, including the CMHC money and $110 plus from the GNWT and private sector money. So I think maybe I'm just being too common sense about this, but if I had a $300 pot or project to work with I would think, I think the prudent thing to do is to just go to businesses that would do the work that may be able to provide housing to pipeline workers and say, hey, what could you do with $300 million? You know? It could be about this kind of scale, 1,400 mobile units or whatever. I just want to make sure that this government does their due diligence to at least tick it off and say, having looked at everything, we still want to go with Novel project. Would the Minister consider doing that, please?

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, as we all know, this is an opportunity of a lifetime to take advantage of this major development that's going to take place in the Northwest Territories, by way of an $8 billion pipeline project where this chance will maybe

only come once in this lifetime. I think we have to keep in mind that opportunities don't come by this often and I think we have to take advantage of it.

Again, this project is a business deal. It is a deal to supply workforce housing for the pipeline. It is between the Mackenzie pipeline or gas project, and also in regards to someone to supply these facilities. The whole idea of the Novel project is to enable the Mackenzie gas project to consider investing in this type of workforce housing, but also looking at it in regards to a win-win situation for the people of the Northwest Territories, the people of the Mackenzie Valley, and also for the Government of the Northwest Territories by way of finding affordable housing. I think it is important to realize that we are looking at permanent, affordable and energy-efficient homes. In regards to the Mackenzie gas project, this is something that has been worked on between industry, the Government of the Northwest Territories, CMHC and also trying to find a way that we can deal with our housing crisis, but, more importantly, use the industry to provide us with that opportunity.

I think it is important to realize that, in regards to expenditures that are made, the federal government who is a partner in this process will be investing $119 million which is basically the $90 million they committed to contribute plus $29 million in regards to interest that it is going to accrue on that $90 million, because we were trying to get the money at the front end but it will be coming by way of an insurance which will be charged because they are telling us now that they will not fund the project until the project has been completed and the camps are available to be acquired. Ourselves, we are looking at $116 million to be used to convert these work camps for housing for Novel and transfer them into the communities and do the site development costs. You have to realize that, out of that, there is going to be $200 million left in the Northwest Territories economy. The economic benefit to the Northwest Territories -- the suppliers, the contractors, the labour force -- will leave a legacy of economic growth long after the pipeline is concluded.

I think it is important for us to realize that the opportunity that we have here is going to leave us some economic growth three or four years after the pipeline has been concluded. In most cases, people looking for employment in the pipeline are possibly looking for three years of winter employment, up to 278 days of employment. I believe we have to be realistic here to take advantage of this opportunity. I don't think the federal government, ourselves, Imperial Oil or any of the partners in the Mackenzie gas pipeline group want to leave a legacy behind so that we can all realize how important it is. I just wanted to state that for the record in regards to the dollars that are going to be allocated and also an opportunity for people to buy affordable housing where we are looking at selling half of these units to individuals to purchase at a reasonable cost, $110,000, to buy a two or three-bedroom mobile home compared to other costs that are associated elsewhere in the Northwest Territories. I think we have to be realistic here. I realize that this is an opportunity of a lifetime. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Madam Chair. With due respect, Madam Chair, I guess the Minister can choose to continue to speak on this topic as if he is a paid lobbyist for Novel project, or he could give some commitments on due diligence that I am asking for. I could, as well, do a 10-minute speech on the pros and cons of that. I am not interested in that. I want him to just answer some basic questions so we can move on.

If he wants to keep on doing that, I am prepared to spend the rest of the week debating on the pros and cons of this. So let me just ask a very specific question. I am not asking the merit of building housing or taking advantage of the pipeline project. What I am saying is, I would like to see this Minister taking a driver's seat. We have an opportunity here. The better way for him to be is to, okay, with the federal government and the territorial government spending money and the pipeline coming in, we have a housing opportunity here. What could we do? Okay. He could make a decision. A manufactured home is the way to go. He has done the cost-benefit analysis. Now I am asking, is the Novel concept the only idea in town? If that is so, I am prepared to be convinced. But where is the evidence? Has he asked any other businesses? We have a $297 million project, potentially, between the federal and territorial governments and private investment. What could you do? Could we ask the top five companies in the world? It could be just as well. ATCO, as the Minister has stated, is looking at other areas. That is a huge company. We don't need a Minister and the government lobbying Imperial for one company. I want to know. Has he asked, or is he or the government prepared to ask a question to somebody or at least three businesses, what could you do for us in terms of building the pipeline housing that could be turned into affordable housing? Could he commit to looking into that? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The question is yes. We do have people on staff from the Department of Finance. We have people from our organization. We have people who are basically right out of Ottawa and Calgary office, CHMC, the most senior people in the housing field through the federal system and ourselves and along with the people that we have hired as consultants to work on this. We, if anything, have done due diligence to ensure that, at the end of the day, whatever price tag it is, it has to be within the costs that we set to ensure that it is a viable product. We are spending public funds on something that we know is going to be able to be delivered, but also realize that we cannot afford to not allow this diligence to take place. We are working with CMHC which is a federal agency in Canada which deals with housing. We couldn't have a better partner at the table than them...Also, we do have the Department of Finance through Mr. Roland's office which is also part of this team that is overseeing this. We are doing everything we can to ensure that we do have a product and also being able to deliver the product at the end of the day within costs. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Ms. Lee.

That is very good, Madam Chair. CMHC has such confidence in this project that they are not even willing to come into this until the back end. They want to sit back and see if this is going to work or not. So I don't think that is exactly a resounding endorsement. If the

Minister has consultants looking at this project for CMHC, I and my other colleagues on this side of the table, I think, will be very interested in looking at what documents they are looking at. Would the Minister make the commitment to bring forward what due diligence test he has done on this project by any consultants or any staff that shows us a half-decent comparison about where this project lies in comparison to other comparable, reputable project ideas? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I will forward the question to the Minister of Finance.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, the issue around the Novel concept is one that grabbed our attention quite some time ago as to the potential of using workforce housing to supplement a need for housing in our communities across the Northwest Territories. The opportunity comes out of the fact that the Mackenzie gas pipeline is going to be needing a large number of beds to house its workforce. From there, our discussions took place with one of the companies that would be capable and have the capacity to build as many camp beds and workforce housing as possible in the short time frame. One of the issues we face is, when a decision is made to proceed with the pipeline project, contracts will be let out to companies available to put out such large units in a short time frame. Looking at the Northwest Territories, we are unable to provide such a volume. As well, if we stuck with just a typical camp force housing that is in place and that is used in industry today, it is not suitable and would cost too much to do the conversion. When we were approached to look at this initiative by one of the companies that has the capabilities and has supplied your typical workforce housing, we were interested and began our discussions. We have also had discussions with Imperial Oil as to using the concept and the idea and moving forward with that.

Based on the interest and the opportunity that was before us, between the Housing Corporation and myself with FMBS staff, we began to look at it with some detail as to the potentials there. Looking at your typical construction methods used in the Northwest Territories, which we have many years' experience to what the potentials were with conversions and the cost of that and having the homes established in communities, we felt that it was viable and worth the effort to do further investigation. That is why I presented the material I did before Christmas to Members about the opportunities, the work that was done, as well as laid out the risks. There are risks with this, but we feel that the timing and the commitment to this, both by our government and the CMHC, is one of a nature where you have to make those investments up front to actually take advantage of this.

We have been working with ATCO with the Novel concept. Ultimately, it is going to be a decision by the Mackenzie gas project. Yes, we are counting on private citizens in buying up approximately half of the units that would be available to them. It is not absolutely a $300 million project that we can go to anybody else and say for $300 million, what can you supply? We are not buying that package. It is a package and a concept that we would like Imperial to endorse and move forward with. Work has begun with Imperial in earnest around ensuring that they feel they would get the best value for their money, as well. That is something there they want to see. We want to see that because we would have to make a serious commitment to this. We have had to show CMHC officials that, as well; that their investment would be a good investment. All parties right now are working together to try to come up with a solution. Ultimately, if the federal government doesn't come up with the money and Imperial doesn't agree that this project is something they want to proceed with, we are back to square one in doing our typical housing delivery methods, which we will not be able to pull this kind of money together and see the amount of housing put in the Northwest Territories. Just on that value, we feel that it is a worthy effort to go into and come up with the numbers. Again, I would be glad to provide more detail to those numbers as we did before on the latest things that have been done. But we have given probably the most complete piece we have to date on the costs, estimates and the timelines that we have. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Next on the list I have Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just have a few follow-up questions from my comments and questions yesterday regarding seniors' complexes that have been built in the Northwest Territories, specifically Tuktoyaktuk, Deline and Fort Resolution. I know there is a fairly new Minister and a new president involved with the Housing Corporation. I just want to try to get some assurance from these gentlemen that things that have happened in the past where seniors' complexes are built without any seniors to go in them don't happen again. We don't just build something with the hopes that people are going to show up with their bags to move in, because that hasn't been the case in the past. I want to ask the Minister, specifically, what assurance is he willing to give the Standing Committee on Social Programs and this House, evidence that the uptake is there for this seniors' facility in Hay River? Madam Chair, this facility in Hay River is twice as big as the one that was built in Tuktoyaktuk and the one that was built in Deline. I think it is important that we have some clients signed up on paper that are ready, willing, and able to move into this facility before we proceed any further with it. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, in regards to the seniors' facilities that have been built in the past, they have been built in conjunction with the Department of Health and Social Services. There is survey done to determine exactly where these facilities should be built. Then the argument is made to put it into a capital item on our books. Again, it is in conjunction with Health and Social Services.

In regards to the facility you are talking about in Hay River, it is being developed through a private business case in which they are looking at building 25 units in which we are looking at providing roughly, with land and cash, roughly estimated at $450,000. Again, there are certain stipulations that have to be taken care of in which the person has to have a business case. We are providing a rent supp per door, based roughly about $18,000. That is how we come up with the $450,000, which is the land and

the rent supp of $18,000 per unit. It is a private arrangement. They do have to get the appropriate funds they will need to deal with that. That is just like us dealing with the Aven's Society here in Yellowknife. We provide assistance. From there, they work with other agencies to fund it. I think it is important to realize that we are working in conjunction with that. Again, this is still in the planning stage. We have not seen a final decision on it. There is no final decision at this time.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Ramsay.