Mr.

Chairman, I don’t

have the specific detailed information on the escapees, I guess you could call them, but I can certainly provide that information at a later time. Mahsi.

Mr. Chairman, I’ve had a tour of the North Slave Correctional Centre. It’s in my riding. It’s not Bowden and it’s not Drumheller. You know, we’ve gone to more of a holistic approach with Corrections. I don't know if having a fence built around the young offenders unit and the North Slave Correctional Centre is necessary. Somebody might be able to convince me of that at some point, but not today; not when we’re faced with the reductions going on.

I would be interested to hear how many people have escaped from the North Slave Correctional Centre and the young offenders unit, because when something like that happens, you usually hear it on

the radio, and I just haven’t, probably going back about ten or 12 years to when the old YCC was there in the corner of Kam Lake and Old Airport Road. Somebody escaped from there, but that was a long time ago.

I also would be interested in that information, but I’d be even more interested in the number of attempted break-ins into the jail facility.

This is certainly an expenditure that could be postponed, at least, if not deleted. My understanding is that the people who are incarcerated are those with sentences of less than two years, so I don’t think we are dealing with maximum security or anything like that. I have to agree with my colleague Mr. Ramsay. In a long-term sense it might be something to think about, but given our fiscal situation, I would have trouble supporting this.

Mr.

Chairman, you’d be

surprised to see how many repeat offenders end up going back into the facility at different times of the year.

Probably more important is the fact that with such an open environment, items can be exchanged between those who might consider helping their friends or associates, and those who are now incarcerated. That is something that one must look at as part of the scenario that must be reviewed.

The department has put it in here as needing to be done, but we will respect the wishes of the Assembly. Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, I have one other question. I know the facility was fraught with cost overruns, but if you are going to look at perimeter fencing of a facility, that should have been included upfront in the initial capital investment cost.

I’m wondering if it was taken out at some point because of the cost overruns, and the Department of Justice said, “Well, maybe we can do the fencing another day” and now they’re back, looking for the money for the fencing.

This is just a continual expenditure, so I’d like to ask that question.

Mr. Chairman, I don’t have that detail with me. That could be a reality, but I don’t know if the Minister of Justice has that level of detail with him now.

The Member is right. When this facility was being constructed, there was quite a concern about the cost, and cost overruns. Some steps had to be taken to try to mitigate those cost overruns when it was being constructed, but I don’t have the detail as to whether the fencing was a piece of that, or

whether some of the aboriginal healing and spiritual programs were also a result of that.

Mr. Chairman, I move that $540,000 be deleted from the Interim Appropriation Detail booklet amount set out in schedule 2, Capital Investment Expenditures, item No. 5, Justice, on page 6, for the project North Slave Adult Facility Perimeter Security in North Slave, Young Offenders Perimeter Security Service Entrance.

Motion is being

circulated. Motion is in order. To the motion. Question is being called. All those in favour of the motion?

Opposed?

Dissentions?

The vote is eight to eight. Since the Chair gets to make the deciding vote, I vote against the motion to allow due process. You will have another opportunity to make this motion at another time.

Committee motion not carried.

Justice, appropriation

authority required: $1,610,000. Mr. McLeod.

Mr. Chair, I move that $225,000 be deleted from the Interim Appropriation Detail booklet amount set out in Schedule 2, Capital Investment Expenditures, item No. 5, Justice, on page 6, for the project North Slave Correctional Centre — Aboriginal Healing and Spiritual Program Area. Thank you.

Motion is being

distributed. Motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. McLeod, the mover of the motion.

Mr.

Chair, we’re faced with a

situation where we’ve got cuts that we’re hoping to make. And I’m all about rehabilitation. The fact that I’m going to put up some infrastructure…. Is that an infrastructure area? Is that going to help the matter?

In my opinion, the aboriginal healing and spiritual program area should be right here. That’s why I want to move the motion to delete the $225,000. We’re facing cuts all over the place. And there might be some cuts to programs where it actually helps the victims of crime, and $225,000 can go a long way toward doing something like that.

If it’s a program that is really required and needs to be brought in, in another Assembly, then I’m all for it. I’ve always spoken for the victims of crime, and I said I believe in rehabilitation. And I say again, it starts right here, not in some piece of infrastructure. I would be glad to move the motion and support it.

This is another capital investment in my riding — it’s at North Slave Correctional Centre.

I guess I am, by default, the MLA for a lot of the inmates at that centre. I do receive a number of calls from inmates that are incarcerated there. One of the things they always talk to me about is the fact they don’t have enough in terms of programming on the rehabilitation side, and they could use more work in that area.

The majority of the inmates at North Slave Correctional Centre are of aboriginal descent. I believe we should be doing more to try to rehabilitate them, to give them the necessary tools as to why they are incarcerated so they don’t end up back at North Slave Correctional Centre and phoning me about programs that aren’t there and help that’s not there when they need it.

I do appreciate what my colleague Mr. McLeod is saying and others who are looking at deleting this amount. But for me, it’s an important area. It’s one I think we should be spending more time and effort. It’s going to take some resources as well to do this. This is a start, and we’ll have to see.

I’m going to have to vote against the motion.

This particular program has been addressed by inmates, of course. There’s been some discussion among the inmates and the guards that was brought to our attention. There is a healing program needed at the correction centre and outside the environment of the centre. This is part of rehabilitation that we talked about. I see it as a healing path, coming back to society after what’s been done.

We are putting this forward based on the call of the inmates. That’s why we’re here providing more information that I didn’t share earlier. What we’re

doing his is providing a rehabilitation program for inmates. I feel it’s a worthwhile program, especially when we have elders coming into the facility to conduct a spiritual healing, putting them on the right path to go back to the general society at large.

This is an extremely elaborate facility to be built. I don’t know what it topped out at — $50 million or so. There were things designed into the building for meeting together. I definitely know there was an aboriginal healing meeting room component. I toured the facility; I saw it.

If you’ve got this kind of money to throw around, I would rather see it go into some kind of programming. It isn’t about the stones and the bricks and mortar. That isn’t what’s going to heal people. If you want to bring people in and have elders come and talk to the people, put the money into programming.

SMCC in Hay River has an area out back of the facility. We were just there; we had a tour of it. The Minister was just down there. The Minister of Public Works was there too.

They have an aboriginal healing and spiritual program area. Just about everything in there was donated. They have a tent frame, furniture, a big wood stove and different little cabins and stuff. People actually became resourceful and put some materials together. They built a very interesting area where the inmates were involved in actually building this, and they take some pride of ownership in this.

I don't think we need to put this kind of capital money into something like this. There are all kinds of different ways of accomplishing some infrastructure, if that's what they need. There’s nothing stopping them from getting materials and building something that they want. That's entirely what they did in Hay River. There's a tent frame, a tipi, a cabin, and a coordinator. They take road trips; they go to communities. They do all kinds of things. It’s all about programming.

So to spend over $200,000 on infrastructure, no, I can't support the expenditure. I'll be voting in favour of the motion to delete.

Mr.

Chair, those comments

Mrs. Groenewegen put forward were essentially what I was going to say. The spiritual program area…. I was getting a little confused there and finally realized that we're really talking about an area, not a program.

I think programming does deal with issues of the heart and healing and so on. So that's where I'd sooner see the resources put. If we want to build something, it would probably be healing for our inmates to do the building and save some there.

Yes, I also am having strong second thoughts on this one.

Mr. Chair, I don't know whether it’s the female perspective that Mr. Bromley referenced in his Member’s statement or whether we're just smarter than everybody else, but I was going to say what Jane was saying, and then I was going to say what Mr. Bromley has said.

I have difficulty with $225,000 on a structure. This is a capital investment; it’s not operations. I have no problem with a program. I believe the programs are necessary, and they ought to be there. The construction of this particular area could be a program in and of itself. Having the inmates build this area would probably be as valuable to them as somebody else building it and them going there. I do have difficulty with the fact that we're going to build this area.

I will support the motion.