Committee Motion 27-17(5): Concurrence Of Tabled Document 51-17(5), Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 4, 2012-2013, Carried

In the Legislative Assembly on March 5th, 2014. See this topic in context.

Committee Motion 27-17(5): Concurrence Of Tabled Document 51-17(5), Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 4, 2012-2013, Carried
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Wendy Bisaro Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I move that consideration of Tabled Document 51-17(5), Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures) No. 4, 2012-2013, be now concluded and that Tabled Document 51-17(5) be reported and recommended as ready for further consideration in formal session through the form of an appropriation bill. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Just give us a second to circulate that motion.

Committee, the motion is in order. Motion is carried.

---Carried

We are going to continue on with Tabled Document 52-17(5), Supplementary Estimates (Operation Expenditures), No. 4, 2013-2014. We will go to the Minister responsible for opening comments. Minister Miltenberger.

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I’m here to present Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures) No. 4, 2013-14. This document outlines an increase of $30.525 million in operations expenditures for the 2013-2014 fiscal year.

The more significant items included in the supplementary estimates are:

1. $6.6 million for the Department of Health and

Social Services for increased costs for the provision of health care services to non-NWT residents. These costs will be recovered from the patient’s home province or territory.

2. $5.9 million for the Department of Health and

Social Services for increased costs associated with adults in residential care outside the Northwest Territories.

3. $3.8 million for the Department of Health and

Social Services for increased costs associated with the provision of health care services for NWT residents in non-NWT hospitals.

4. $3.4 million for the Department of Health and

Social Services for increased costs associated with children in residential care outside the Northwest Territories.

5. 2.5 million for the Department of Health and

Social Services for increased costs for medical travel.

6. $1,728,000 for the Department of Public Works

and Services for increases in electricity rates.

I am prepared to review the details of the supplementary estimates document. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. Miltenberger, if you can one final time introduce your witnesses to the House.

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have with me Mr. Mike Aumond, deputy minister of Finance; Mr. Sandy Kalgutkar, deputy secretary to the FMB. Thank you.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Again, thanks to Mr. Kalgutkar and Mr. Aumond for joining us today. Committee, general comments. Mr. Bromley.

Bob Bromley Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Unfortunately, this expenditure will drive us well beyond our supplementary reserve. In fact, it blows it right out of the water. In the supportive

documents, I keep seeing the word shortfall. What’s happened here is we have done a very shoddy job on budgeting. This is riddled with examples of entirely predictable costs and it reflects to me a really irresponsible approach to budgeting in the first place, and here we are again putting our supplementary reserve into major deficit. This isn’t the first time this has been brought up. We have been bringing this up repeatedly. Again, I have to question what’s going on here.

Again, many of these things are known well in advance. I will be pointing out examples as we go, but I’d say this practice has to stop. These are major dollars. Obviously, we are not through the year yet, who knows what we’ll come up in a year or two from now for this fiscal year. But I am very disappointed to see these sorts of things coming forward when we’re not even through our year here.

That’s just an…(inaudible)…comment there and I will be commenting as we go. Thank you.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Minister Miltenberger.

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will accept the Member has the right to make his comments. I would take exception to the characterization of shoddy and irresponsible. We take this work very seriously. This is a $1.6 billion operation. It’s very complex. There are many variables we can’t control. There are many demand-driven services. I have and this Assembly has full confidence in the Department of Finance and the budget because we just approved it in the Committee of the Whole yesterday, I think, with the exception of one vote against, everybody else supported it. So we will have the discussion. Yes, there are costs that exceed our Supplementary Reserve Fund, but to characterize the work of the Finance department as shoddy and irresponsible is one, as Minister, I take exception to. Thank you.

Bob Bromley Weledeh

Perhaps I could ask what the purpose of the Reserve Fund is and why it’s set at the point that it’s set at and why we are exceeding that by $26 million.

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, the intent of the fund is to allow us to address unanticipated pressures that we may not have anticipated in the budget. Many are demand-driven programs and you look at one of the big drivers is some of the significant costs related to services to adults and children in southern jurisdictions for example. It gives us a target. We try to hold it, along with our forced growth costs, we try to maintain that, but there are some costs that we can’t anticipate and there are costs that we have to be prepared to pay. Thank you.

Bob Bromley Weledeh

I think many entities would budget with this in mind. If the supplementary reserve is insufficient, let’s change it. But what

happens is we end up stealing from Peter to pay Paul here when in fact we could allocate responsibly right in the beginning. As I say, this degree of correction is unacceptable in my mind. Many of these things, as I say, are predictable and pretty well known. This government’s been operating a long time.

March 4th, 2014

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Bromley. I’m trying to find a question in there. I will leave it at that, I guess. General comments. I have Mr. Menicoche, followed by Ms. Bisaro. Mr. Menicoche.

Kevin A. Menicoche Nahendeh

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I know it’s a pretty significant budget at $30 million and I think the term mini-budget is usually termed when you have some such large expenditures. Of course, they are largely unforeseen. I can certainly concur with that.

I have a couple of questions. Firstly, are any of these from the supplementary appropriation list of $30 million, is any of that included in the base going forward into 2014-15 fiscal year at all?

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. For that we will go to Mr. Aumond.

Aumond

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Some of the health items, such as children and adults out-of-territory care, blood and plasma protein products and some medical travel, Health and Social Services did get an additional $10 million starting in ‘14-15 for those four items in particular. Some examples of some of the stuff that we’ve taken from this supp list and provided base funding adjustments for in the ‘14-15 fiscal year. Thank you.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Aumond. Mr. Menicoche.

Kevin A. Menicoche Nahendeh

Thank you very much. Because it was a significant over-expenditure again, as well, for the predicted 2013-14, are we looking at then a deficit budget based on these new numbers that we have before us?

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Miltenberger.

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

No, Mr. Chair.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. Menicoche.

Kevin A. Menicoche Nahendeh

Thank you. I think he said no. Okay. Can he explain – that is such a significant $30 million adjustment to the 2013-14 budget – how we can be under?

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. For that we will go to Mr. Aumond.

Aumond

Thank you, Mr. Chair. The projected, I guess, the additional, we’ll be in a deficit for our supp reserve by about $26 million. We were projecting a budget in ’13-14 in excess of $100 million to help fund our capital plan that we

approved for ’14-15, so we’re in no danger of this putting us in a deficit position.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Aumond. Mr. Menicoche.

Kevin A. Menicoche Nahendeh

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Just one further question then. We have enough revenue for ’13-14, but Mr. Aumond mentioned, of course, it looks like we have less money for capital for ’14-15. Is that what he’s alluding to?

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Minister Miltenberger.

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We’re going to keep the capital plan at the agreed to rates. It will just be short-term borrowing to cover those costs.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. Menicoche.

Kevin A. Menicoche Nahendeh

Thank you very much. I’m done.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Continuing on with general comments, I have Ms. Bisaro.

Wendy Bisaro Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chair. My comments are similar to my colleagues’. In looking at the amount of this appropriation and the impact that it has on our Reserve Fund, it’s pretty mind-blowing. This appropriation is some $30 million. About $7 million is recoverable, but it leaves us with $24 million or so which, added to our $1.7 million negative already in our Reserve Fund, brings our Reserve Fund up to $26 million in the hole.

I agree with my colleagues that some of these increased pressures happen year after year after year and we should be able to predict them, and I’m very glad to hear that we have added to the base for, I think, four items, I believe the Minister mentioned. That, in my mind, is how we should be budgeting. We finally got to the point about two years ago now that we budgeted a far more realistic figure for fire activities during the summer. Previously, we budgeted an absolute bare minimum and every year the department had to come back and ask for a supplementary appropriation when we knew full well that we were not going to spend just the minimum amount in that budget.

I think being more realistic in what it’s actually going to cost us is a good idea, and I’m very glad to see that some of these things have been moved into base funding for the Department of Health and Social Services. I would encourage the Department of Finance to look with a very critical eye when they’re doing the next budget, look with a critical eye over the last two or three years and don’t budget below what we have tended to spend on a particular item. Budget what we think we’re going to spend in the next year.

I think sometimes we underestimate in our budgeting. I’m not quite sure why. Maybe because it looks better or maybe because, you know, yeah, well, that’s okay, we can always come back and ask for more money. But as I’ve said often, we can’t do that in our own personal budgets. We have X amount of dollars in our household budget and we can’t go back to ourselves and ask for more. Well, we can, but it puts us into debt. That’s the situation that we’re in here.

My question to the Minister is: With $26 million in the hole, I believe it was mentioned that we are going to have to incur short-term borrowing in order for us to get over this hump and this lack of funds and cash flow and so on, so what are the costs that we are going to incur because of this overspending and because of the negative amount in our Reserve Fund?

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Minister Miltenberger.

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would point out that if it was in the base or if it’s here as an over-expenditure in our supplementary reserve, we would still be paying the costs that have been incurred for these programs and services, and we come back on a regular basis. This is my 19th budget, and the Health and

Social Services big ticket items that we constantly come back for are hospital care services and for children and adults, usually in southern facilities. In addition to the supplementary reserve, which is going to go into the base in those areas, we also have forced growth that we try to top up these high pressure areas and programs. Even with that, these are still demand-driven programs and we are here, and if you did a review looking back on what are the program areas that come in most regularly with the biggest amounts of money, you would find that they are very consistent with what’s before this House.

With this budget, this supplementary appropriation in our budget, we are at $128 million left of borrowing room, and we’re looking at keeping that $100 million cushion. We have some flexibility, modest as it is, so we are paying the service, the debt, the short-term debt. Some of it’s already self-liquidating, but that money, we borrow it at the rate we get as a government, and if that’s what the Member is asking, I’d have to ask the deputy minister if we have those costs. If not, we can get them for committee.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Mr. Aumond.

Aumond

Thank you, Mr. Chair. We would have to go back and provide that information to committee.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Aumond. Ms. Bisaro.

Wendy Bisaro Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thanks to the Minister for his comments, and to the deputy minister. It would be interesting to know what this negative amount in our reserve is going to cost us. I mean, the Minister is constantly reminding us that we need to not spend more money because we’re in a short-term borrowing situation. We have to borrow periodically during the year and the number of times that we have to borrow, apparently, is getting to be more and more frequent. There’s a cost to doing this and I would be interested in knowing that cost.

The other thing, if it’s not too much work, I would be interested in knowing for, say, the last three to five years, I would be interested in knowing the cost for even the four items that were mentioned by the Minister, blood and plasma protein products, southern placements for children and adults, and medical travel. I’d be interested in knowing what we budgeted and what we had to come back for as a supplementary appropriation, just so that I could get a sense of a trend. If there’s any other big ticket items that the department cares to provide that information for, I think it would be very, very useful. No question there, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. We’ll ask Minister Miltenberger just for that one comment. Minister Miltenberger.

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We’ll provide the requested information going back three to five years for those particular four areas and we’ll include

supplementary appropriations plus whatever money has been added for forced growth as well.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Committee, general comments.

Some Hon. Members

Detail.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, committee. I’m hearing detail. Committee, I’ll ask you to turn to page 3 in your supplementary estimates. Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures) No. 4, 2013-14, Legislative Assembly, operation expenditures, Office of the Clerk, not previously authorized, $170,000. Mr. Bromley.

Bob Bromley Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Chair. What is the total budget here that this $170,000 is being added to and what will the total be at the end of the year?

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Minister Miltenberger.

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We don’t have that information from the Ledge, but we can request that information from the Legislative Assembly and provide it to committee.

Bob Bromley Weledeh

Thank you. I’d appreciate it if that could be provided to the House and tabled. Why the increase here?

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

The indication from the Speaker is that there have been cost pressures that have driven both these areas of expenditures up and we bring it forward to the Legislature for payment and we’ll, once again, ask for that information.

Bob Bromley Weledeh

Thanks to the Minister. This sounds like a significant increase here and I’m surprised that the process is such that the Minister is not able to be prepared to answer very simple questions here. I would ask that this House consider a process to make sure the Minister has that information when bringing forward requests for increases such as this. Thank you.

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

If there are improvements in the process that are needed, then we would, of course, look for those. But standard practice is the Department of Finance brings forward the request and it’s the Legislature that disposes and it’s the Speaker that requests, all we do is incorporate it into the budget. We don’t question it, we don’t defend it, we just process and bring the request to this House. So, we will get the information that was requested. Thank you.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Committee, page 3, Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 4, 2013. Mr. Bouchard.

Robert Bouchard Hay River North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just had a question about the $35,000 in the Office of the Speaker. Does the Minister know the information on that?

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Bouchard. Mr. Miltenberger.

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There was a scholarship set up, but when the Building Society concluded its work and wrapped up, they turned over I think it was $400,000 to the Legislature and part of it was to go to a scholarship, which is why the net effect is nil. Thank you.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Committee, page 3, Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 4, 2013-14. Legislative Assembly, operations expenditures, Office of the Clerk, not previously authorized, $170,000.

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Office of the Speaker, not previously authorized, $35,000.

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Statutory offices, not previously authorized, $120,000.

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Total department, not previously authorized, $325,000. Does committee agree?

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you. Page 4, Executive, operations expenditures, directorate, not previously authorized, negative $450,000.

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Ministers’ offices, not previously authorized, $25,000

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Total department, not previously authorized, negative $428,000. Does committee agree?

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Committee, I was just notified by the Clerk that I may have said the one number wrong, so just for the record, directorate, not previously authorized, negative $453,000. Does committee agree?

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, committee. Human Resources, operations expenditures, Human Resource Strategy and Policy, not previously authorized, $345,000. Mr. Blake.

Frederick Blake Jr. Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe you didn’t do the Red Cross.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Actually, Mr. Blake, I did read in the $25,000. Thank you, I appreciate it.

Committee, for clarity, and for the record, we will redo page 4. Mr. Blake is paying attention; that’s great. Thank you.

Executive, operations expenditures, directorate, not previously authorized, negative $453,000.

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Ministers’ offices, not previously authorized, $25,000.

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Total department, not previously authorized, negative $428,000. Does committee agree?

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you. Page 5 Human Resources, operations expenditures, Human Resource Strategy and Policy, not previously authorized, $345,000.

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Employee services, not previously authorized, $1.141 million.

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Total department, not previously authorized, $1.486 million. Does committee agree?

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you. Page 6, Public Works and Services, operations expenditures, asset management, not previously authorized, $2.054 million.

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Total department, not previously authorized, $2.054 million. Mr. Bromley.

Bob Bromley Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I understand a good proportion of this is due to the 7 percent increase in electrical rates. This is a formula we have known several years in advance; this is a good example of my perplexity of why we are dealing with this in a supp when we know well ahead of time that we are having a 7 percent increase in our electrical rates. I don’t doubt that there are other factors involved here, but clearly a big proportion of that is the 7 percent increase, a substantive increase as we’ve had for the last three years. We know we are going to have a 5 percent increase next year. Is the Minister aware of that? Will he budget that 5 percent in?

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Minister Miltenberger.

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have asked the deputy to provide the information to why it came forward as a supp this year but, yes, next year it will be built in and won’t come forward as a supp, but with your indulgence, Mr. Chairman.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Mr. Aumond.

Aumond

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The reason it’s in a supp is that actual rates were not approved by the PUB until July 9, 2013, and Public Works and Services, after that, did their data compilation, so that’s why it’s appearing as a supp and it will be a base adjustment going forward after that. Thank you.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Aumond. Committee, we are on page 6, Public Works and Services, operation expenditures, asset management not previously authorized, $2.054 million. Total department not previously authorized, $2.054 million. Does Committee agree?

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you. Page 7, Health and Social Services, operations expenditures, directorate, not previously authorized, $120,000.

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Program delivery support, not previously authorized, $567,000.

Some Hon. Members

Somel

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Health services programs, not previously authorized, $12.568 million. Mr. Bromley.

Bob Bromley Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I believe this is dealing with increased costs for health care services, non-NWT residents and NWT residents, and I believe we are collecting or recovering costs for the non-NWT residents. Is the amount that we are increasing for health care services provided to residents outside the NWT? Is this above normal and what is the full expenditures for that item, the increased costs for health care services outside the NWT? Rather than the increase, what is the full cost to give some context to that $3.775 million? Thank you.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Bromley. For that we will go to Mr. Aumond.

Aumond

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Including the $6.6 million in this supp, the total costs, projected costs for services, is $15.447 million.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Aumond. Mr. Bromley.

Bob Bromley Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just to be clear, is that for total costs for health care services for residents outside the NWT?

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Minister Miltenberger.

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We just want to clarify the numbers that Mr. Aumond was speaking to, or for insured services for non-NWT residents, so now we will respond to the question that Mr. Bromley had asked. I will ask the deputy.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. Aumond.

Aumond

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For out-of-territory hospitals, the total projected cost in ‘13-14 is about $22.9 million.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Aumond. Mr. Bromley.

Bob Bromley Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I know these costs are always going up. Is this amount generally going up from year to year, the $22.9 million, for example? Are we always requesting these extra dollars for the increased costs? Thank you.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Minister Miltenberger.

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Across the country, the health costs are going up on an annual basis. In some cases, it’s a

modest amount, a few percent. In many cases it is 6 to 9 percent. Yes, as this supp indicates, these costs pressures are consistent and inexorable. Thank you.

Bob Bromley Weledeh

Thanks to the Minister. Does our budgeting process allow us the flexibility of saying we’re going to assume a 5 percent increase this year when we’re budgeting for these costs, or do we have to basically go on what it was last year and deal with the extra costs through a supp? Thank you.

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, there’s going to be a target adjustment and this money will go to the base that we’re requesting. As opposed to taking 5 percent, we know that there is a $3.7 million shortfall, so that’s going to be approved now and then added to the base for next year. Thank you.

Bob Bromley Weledeh

Thanks for that information. It sounds like we’re never allowed to get ahead. We’re allowed to count for what the actual costs are this year through this unfortunate process, but wouldn’t it be great if we could do it at the beginning of the year so that we actually knew what our costs were roughly? We might even feed back a few thousand bucks at the end of the year, who knows? But I would be happy with a conservative estimate of increases based on our experience. It would just greatly reduce these sorts of costs, or at least adjustments. Thank you.

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, the Legislature and the Government of the Northwest Territories have learned over the decades that what seems to be the best way to manage the money is putting a base budget, and if you are over, come back when you can justify the expense as opposed to anticipating at the beginning of the year a number, however big it would be, and then hoping it’s enough and that the things don’t expand, just spend the money available in the budget. Hard practice has shown and I know, if I can use fire fighting for example, they used to have a very rich budget. It ended up, when there was a small fire season, a lot of other things got done but the fire budget stayed the same even if they didn’t use the money. So for this and other program areas, it came to practice to give them a good base budget, and if there are costs over and above that, then come back and we will make the case to the Legislature why we should get paid for that. That’s the approach that has been consistent in my time here in this Legislature. Thank you.

Bob Bromley Weledeh

It sounds like that’s the hard reality and our budgeting system does not have flexibility to do this and redefine that base even conservatively. We know typically this year the numbers I have have increased about 5.5 percent. I think in the order of 4 to 6 percent is typical across Canada, so we could adjust it by 3 or 3.5 percent

theoretically, but it doesn’t sound like we have that flexibility. So, onwards.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Bromley. I will take that as a final comment. I do have Mr. Nadli on this page as well. Mr. Nadli.

Michael Nadli Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just an observation in terms of this section of the budget, it seems rather high, but I realize that patients that have serious injuries in some circumstances have to be sent down south because we don’t have the specialized care here in the NWT. I just wanted to get the Minister to perhaps share his vision in terms of trying to curb the costs but at the same time looking at perhaps a concept of at least a legacy in terms of ensuring that we have homemade solutions here and we have institutions that are tailored to deal with industrial-type accidents, whether that is perhaps the vision that the Minister has in his department. Thank you.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Nadli. Mr. Miltenberger.

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As Minister of Finance, we put forward a budget that has a very hard cap on forced growth and we’re trying to control our supplementary appropriations. We are trying to make sure that we manage those expenditures.

In regards to the vision of Health and Social Services to address some of the issues that the Member talked about, I’d ask the Minister of Health and Social Services if he wanted to make some comments as the Minister responsible and the man with the plan.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. We will go to Minister Abernethy.

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chair. If I understand the question correctly, it’s about expenditure control within the department and the authorities.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Just to get clarity, Mr. Abernethy, we will ask Mr. Nadli to summarize his question one more time. Mr. Nadli.

Michael Nadli Deh Cho

Thank you. I think the point is in the realm of expenditure control, but at what point do we reckon with the fact that we do need a facility or an institution of some kind here in the NWT, rather than sending patients down south that require specialized care? Say we have an increasing rate of resource development on the scale of industrial activity and thus our labour force is perhaps highly susceptible to serious injuries that involve perhaps special brain injuries that require specialized care. At what point do we look at the concept of perhaps studying the idea of a facility or institution of that nature up here?

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

Mr. Chair, in the areas we see the asks here with respect to children in

southern placement and adults in southern placement, we have asked for money in the ‘14-15 budget which has been moved forward, added to the base so that we don’t have to come back for as large of supps in the future, but the Member does raise a good point. Having said that, the individuals that are in these southern placements are usually high needs individuals with a range of conditions. I have asked the department to do a file review of all the individuals, recognizing that many of them are very complex and we don’t have the capacity to support them, to see if there are any similar or like clients with the same type of needs. If there’s an opportunity for us to repatriate any of them through, as you said, maybe a facility, it might be cheaper to bring a group of people with similar needs back to the North and support them in the North closer to their homes. We are doing that review to see if there are any opportunities there. It’s going to take a while because each file is so different and so unique, but I will keep the committee posted as we move forward. If we do find an opportunity there to repatriate a block based on similar needs, we will certainly be coming to committee for some further discussion.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Abernethy. Mr. Nadli.

Michael Nadli Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have no further questions.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you. Committee, we are on page 7, Health and Social Services, operations expenditures, directorate, not previously authorized, $120,000.

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Program delivery support, not previously authorized, $567,000.

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Health services programs, not previously authorized, $12.568 million.

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Supplementary health programs, not previously authorized, $2.521 million. Mr. Bromley.

Bob Bromley Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I see this is a request for Medical Travel Program costs. Again, I’m disappointed here. Basically we have poured in, in both during the 16th and 17th Assemblies, tens of

millions of dollars to increase the efficiency of our medical travel system. Specifically on electronic medical records, telehealth, call forward physician access, community pharmaceutical supplies, community electronic imaging capacity. I am just again wondering what’s happening here on the increasing costs that we’re seeing, or is it a budgeting issue? I understand that Stanton Territorial Hospital Authority is already in

substantial operating deficit and perhaps some of it is related to this, I don’t know. What are our substantial investments in the medical travel system getting us in terms of efficiencies? Why the ongoing unexpected, apparently, or unbudgeted costs here? Thank you.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Minister Miltenberger.

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First, I’d just note that we’ve done the calculations as we’re sitting here. The 2014 budget that we’ve just approved is a 9 percent increase, roughly, over last year. It’s the largest growth department, as it is just about every government of the land.

There have been some efficiencies with the changes we’ve made to personnel, how it’s managed, the navigator we put in place, the back office work were with various regions, but there are some significant cost-drivers here, the scheduled air travel, the tickets, ticket prices that have increased, reduced flight schedules. The Minister of Health indicated in the House yesterday or this week, just by not having any more flights in the mornings means you have to tack on an extra day on medical travel.

The medevac personnel contract has gone up considerably, four-hundred-and-some thousand dollars. The Edmonton city centre closure had a cost to us, and boarding home contracts, as well, have gone up. There has been a reduction in NIHB, what they pay, so that cost has been downloaded to us, unrecoverable costs, over $400,000.

So we have those pressures that drive up the cost. The other big issue is it’s demand driven, once again, the amount of travel required to move people around either in the North or from the North to the South. Thank you.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. Bromley.

Bob Bromley Weledeh

Thanks, Mr. Chair. Thanks to the Minister. I recognize that many of the costs he mentioned are indeed increasing. In terms of the increased travel, the intent of all our tens of millions of dollars of investments was to directly address that. I think studies have shown upwards of 50 percent of medical travel patients were out on the street an hour after they had their appointment and didn’t really need that travel. With what we’ve invested now in telehealth, electronic imaging, the direct access to physicians and so on, hopefully we’ll be saving quite a bit on that front. I’ll just leave that as a comment, but welcome any further response.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, Mr. Bromley. We’ll leave that as a comment. Committee, page 7, Health and Social Services,

operations expenditures, directorate, not previously authorized, $120,000.

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Program delivery support, not previously authorized, $567,000.

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Health services programs, not previously authorized, $12.568 million.

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Supplementary health programs, not previously authorized, $2.521 million.

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Community wellness and social services, not previously authorized, $9.258 million.

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Total department, not previously authorized, $25.034 million. Committee agree?

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, committee. Page 8, Justice, operations expenditures, policing services, not previously authorized, $1.307 million.

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Court services, not previously authorized, $597,000.

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Total department, not previously authorized, $1.904 million.

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you. Page 9, Education, Culture and Employment, operations expenditures, directorate and administration, not previously authorized, negative $150,000.

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Education and culture, not previously authorized, negative $100,000.

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Total department, not previously authorized, negative $250,000. Does committee agree?

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you. Page 10, Transportation, operations expenditures, highways, not previously authorized, $400,000.

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Total department, not previously authorized, $400,000.

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you. Does committee agree that we’ve concluded consideration of Tabled Document 52-17(5), Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 4, 2013-2014?

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair Daryl Dolynny

Thank you, committee. Ms. Bisaro.

Committee Motion 27-17(5): Concurrence Of Tabled Document 51-17(5), Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 4, 2012-2013, Carried

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