I'd like to call Committee of the Whole to order. What is the wish of the committee, Ms. Bisaro?
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
In the Legislative Assembly on October 5th, 2015. See this topic in context.
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Wendy Bisaro Frame Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. We'd like to continue with Tabled Document 325-17(5), Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 3, 2015-2016. If we complete that, Tabled Document 324-17(5), Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 2, 2015-2016. If we are really efficient, we will move on to Bill 56, Bill 59, Bill 62, Bill 63, Bill 64 and Bill 69.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
I'd like to call Committee of the Whole back to order. When we left off on Friday, we were on Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 3, 2015-2016. I will ask Minister Miltenberger if you would like to take the witnesses table and bring witnesses into the Chamber.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Thank you. Sergeant-at-Arms, could you please escort the witnesses to the table.
For the record today, joining Minister Miltenberger is Sandy Kalgutkar, deputy secretary to Cabinet; and Mr. Mike Aumond, deputy minister of Finance.
I would like to ask Members if they have any general comments, please.
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Some Hon. Members
Detail.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Okay, detail. Thank you, Members. Please turn to page 6 of the tabled document. Education, Culture and Employment, labour development and standards, not previously authorized, $100,000. Total department, $100,000.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Thank you. Department of Environment and Natural Resources, forest management, not previously authorized $406,000. Total department, $406,000.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Page 8, Finance, Office of the Chief Information Officer, not previously authorized, $120,000. Office of the Comptroller General, not previously authorized, $160,000. Total department, not previously authorized, $280,000.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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Bob Bromley Weledeh
Thank you, Madam Chair. Could I have an explanation of this last item of $280,000? It sounds like there was a surplus in the child and family services budget for the information system that we've been trying to get in place for years now. In fact, I was told there was ongoing work that we'd approved for this fiscal year and that there was even more capital dollars planned for next year to finish off the Child and Family Services Information System. If I've got that right, I'm questioning how there can be this $280,000 in surplus given we're barely halfway through the year, if I'm understanding this correctly. Thank you.
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Aumond
Thank you, Madam Chair. There's no surplus in the child and family services project. It's just that the project has faced some delays in getting started. From a cash flow perspective, they were not going to use all the money that was allocated in their budget for the 2015-2016 year, so the discussion and decision was around a couple of projects in Finance that were approved and proceeding. The first one was on the cash management function. That was going to be spread over two years and the thinking or the decision was to try to use some of that surplus, not surplus but free up cash this year from Health and Social Services to do that project over one year. For the security tools, because of the money allocated in the IT budget for this year, we didn't have enough funding to cover all the assets we wanted to, to get all the security tools in place. This money will allow that to happen. Next year in the capital plan, that $280,000 will go back to Health and Social Services and they will be able to spend the money and the project will pick up steam in the next fiscal year. So, it's not that there's a surplus, there's a cash flow issue from that project that we are re-profiling to this year, and that $280,000, again, as I said, will be available for that project next fiscal year and we'll be in a position to spend that money. Thank you.
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Bob Bromley Weledeh
Thank you, Madam Chair. The deputy minister has just said exactly what I said, albeit in more flowery terms. This is extremely disappointing. We have been trying to get this approved, the Child and Family Services Information System, as the Minister of Health knows, since the 16th Assembly. It was recognized that our child and family services workers are so flummoxed by this useless piece of software that they spend times driven to smoking, leaving the building and going out to smoke, because this is a useless piece of software that we have and it's affecting the delivery of child and family services. The Auditor General was on about exactly this stuff, and year after year after year we've transferred dollars. I guess I'm just so tired of it and I can't imagine what our workers are feeling when they're absolutely driven to extraction and doing unhealthy things from a useless piece of software that they simply can't even administer, follow, record the family's history over time, extended family's history over time, critical for being able to support our families as needed.
Can I ask what's going on here? Thank you.
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Glen Abernethy Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. The Member asked roughly the same question when we were discussing the capital budget for '16-17. At that time I indicated that we have actually made some progress on this file, significant progress. We are moving forward with a brand new system; we're in the negotiations with a potential provider. It's not going to be a rebuild of the existing awful system that the Member has described, but given the time it's taken to land on an appropriate vendor, someone who can actually do the work and give us the tool that is going to meet the needs of the social workers that are involved in this file and we've been seeking their input and advice as we move along to make sure that people are informed.
We still anticipate the end date to be the same. We just need to move some money from this current fiscal year to the future fiscal year because we're not going to be able to spend all the money this fiscal year. But at the end of the day, we still are projecting the same go live date that we've been contemplating all along. It's more of a cash flow adjustment to make sure that we can actually get this project done and that we have the full funds in the appropriate fiscal year.
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Bob Bromley Weledeh
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just hope the Minister is right. I'm hoping if I'm ever driven to listening to our proceedings a year from now...
---Laughter
...that I am not seeing this same thing yet again. The sound system sure is a soaker for gobbling up cash. Just a comment. Thank you.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Thank you. I thought you were going to say if I'm ever driven to smoking. Mr. Miltenberger.
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Michael Miltenberger Thebacha
Thank you, Madam Chair. We as well hope that the Member is never driven to having to unwillingly watch the proceedings on TV to check up on this thing and we intend to honour the commitment that's laid out here. Thank you.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Finance, office of the chief information officer, not previously authorized, $120,000. Office of the comptroller general, not previously authorized, $160,000. Total department not previously authorized, $280,000. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Thank you. Health and Social Services, administrative and support services, not previously authorized, negative $172,000. Total department, not previously authorized, negative $172,000. Agreed.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Turning to page 10, Public Works and Services, asset management, not previously authorized, $1.5 million. Total department, not previously authorized, $1.5 million. Mr. Dolynny.
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Daryl Dolynny Range Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'd like to welcome the department here again today for the appropriations. Maybe if we can just start this off with a simple lead-in question here, if we can get some level of explanation what this $1.5 million means with respect to tenant improvements. Thank you.
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Kalgutkar
Thank you, Madam Chair. The department has $2.5 million in incentive money to do some tenant improvements on the YK Centre and they got to receive that money in May 2014, so it's reported in our '14-15 Public Accounts. This appropriation is for the department to get the authority to start spending that money and undertake those renovations. Thank you.
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Daryl Dolynny Range Lake
So, what we've heard today from the assistant deputy minister is that $2.5 million, not $1.5 million, was deposited in our public accounts in May of 2014. Now we're looking for an appropriation to spend $1.5 million. Where is the remaining of this money and where was it spent? Thank you.
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Kalgutkar
The remaining $1 million is in the 2016-17 Capital Estimates.
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Daryl Dolynny Range Lake
So it's safe to assume that that $1 million that was in last year's main estimates were spent directly on the YK Centre tenant improvements? Thank you.
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Kalgutkar
That $1 million is in the 2016-17 Capital Estimates, so it won't be spent until the next fiscal year.
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Daryl Dolynny Range Lake
So now we've got $1 million that won't be spent until next year and we're looking at an appropriation for the remaining $1.5 million to be spent in that same year. Is that the understanding? Thank you.
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Kalgutkar
Thank you. The $1.5 million will be spent this fiscal year.
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Daryl Dolynny Range Lake
Now the story is starting to be a little bit clearer. So we've got $1 million that's destined to be spent next year, we're trying to spend $1.5 million this year for tenant improvements. This is money that we've had in our public coffers since May of 2014. Is this money accruing any type of interest? Where is it parked exactly? Thank you.
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Kalgutkar
The money was deposited into our Consolidated Revenue Fund and depending on what the value of the fund was at the time the money was deposited, it's uncertain whether it was earning interest or not. Given that we are in a cash deficit position, I would assume that it's reducing our interest costs. Thank you.
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Daryl Dolynny Range Lake
So, with the $1.5 million that we have before us right now, what is the intention of this money to be spent on during this fiscal year? Thank you.
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Kalgutkar
I think the main intent is to proceed with the tenant agreements at the YK Centre. I believe it's the third floor for the financial shared services offices.
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Aumond
Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Kalgutkar said it's for the third. It's also for the fourth floors of the YK Centre where the Department of Transportation used to be. They moved from YK Centre to the new office building and that space is going to be refitted up for GNWT clients who will occupy that building. Thank you.
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Daryl Dolynny Range Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. When is the anticipated date of completion for these renovations pursuant to the $1.5 million we have before us today? Thank you.
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Aumond
The $1.5 million in addition to the $1 million is for the same project. It's just over the two fiscal years and should be completed sometime in the 2016-17 fiscal year. Thank you.
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Daryl Dolynny Range Lake
Because I may not be here to see the completion of this project, by what proof or performance guaranteed where 18th Assembly Regular Members are able to follow this spending and making sure that indeed the government is compliant with all the terms and conditions to the overall $2.5 million given to us? Thank you.
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Kalgutkar
Thank you, Madam Chair. The first $1.5 million will show up in our '15-16 Public Accounts. Funding that's carried over from that $1.5 million, the Assembly of the day will see it in the capital carry-overs and the total project will be accounted for in the '16-17 Public Accounts. Thank you.
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Daryl Dolynny Range Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate the answer. It was more the accounting aspect of the question. I guess the real question is: By what mechanism do we have to guarantee that those monies that we have are given to us, $2.5 million in total, will be spent at the YK Centre building itself and not be used for any other project or projects within our Public Works and Services? Again, by what way are we able to guarantee that this money is being spent where the money was given to?
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Aumond
Thank you, Madam Chair. The inducement of the $2.5 million is part of the lease that we have with the landlord, and so our accountability around that would be in the lease with the landlord, who will be undertaking the inducements, presumably, on behalf of the GNWT.
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Daryl Dolynny Range Lake
Were there any caveats to that $2.5 million in total in terms of performance, if we weren't able to perform our duties to use that money wisely or efficiently or effectively to the betterment of the YK Centre improvement? Were there any caveats that that money would go back to the landlord?
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Aumond
The caveat, in the Member's terms, are with the provisions of the lease. It has to be spent on the landlord's properties. If not the YK Centre, it could be spent on another property that we would lease from the landlord. But the landlord will be undertaking and managing those inducements, so the landlord will be in a very good position to know if we're spending the money on his property or not.
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Daryl Dolynny Range Lake
Does the landlord receive an accounting of the money being spent in terms of, again, back to the proof of performance? Do we supply receipts as to contractor payments or of that nature? By which way does the contractor provide that information either through us, who is possibly doing our work for us, back to the landlord to make sure that we actually are following through to the T and I that we have in relationship to this agreement.
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Aumond
Thank you, Madam Chair. There would be a scope of work agreed to with the landlord and particularly if there is a third party who is undertaking the tenant improvements, but in this case I think the landlord will be managing them themselves, and there would be a costing that would be associated with that that both the landlord and, in this case, Public Works and Services would have to sign off on for the value of the work, and that would be the proof and the verification that the money was being used for its intended purpose.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Thank you, Public Works and Services, asset management, not previously authorized, $1.5 million. Total department, not previously authorized, $1.5 million. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Jane Groenewegen
Does the committee agree that we have concluded consideration of Tabled Document 325-17(5)?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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