I call Committee of the Whole to order. What is the wish of committee? Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.
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In the Legislative Assembly on March 11th, 2020. See this topic in context.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Marsi cho, Madam Chair. Committee wishes to consider Tabled Document 30-19(2), 2020-2021 Main Estimates, for the NWT Housing Corporation. Marsi.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
I now call committee back to order. Committee, we have agreed to consider Tabled Document 30-19(2), Main Estimates 2020-2021. We are under the NWT Housing Corporation. Does the Minister responsible for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation have any opening remarks?
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am here to present the 2020-2021 Main Estimates for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation. Overall, the corporation's estimates propose an increase of $5.3 million or 5.1 percent over the 2019-2020 Main Estimates. These estimates support our fiscal objectives to prioritize responsibilities and strategic spending while matching the modest expected revenue growth over the coming year.
The proposed estimates include approximately $4.2 million of additional spending that will support a range of priority investments to promote housing partnerships, home ownership opportunities, and the preservation of the corporation's existing public housing stock. These strategic investments include additional funding for the multi-year community housing plans initiative, increases to the community housing support initiative program, the new home program, the Securing Assistance for Emergency program, the seniors aging in place program and the fuel tank replacement program.
In addition, the corporation is allocating additional funding to support a range of priority preservation investments for the corporation's existing public housing stock, including additional repairs funding for local housing organizations, funding for the demolition of surplus units, and addressing the continued decline in Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation funding for social program operations.
Also included in the 2020-2021 Main Estimates is an additional $1.4 million of incremental forced growth funding for collective bargaining increases, supporting both the corporation and the local housing organizations. These estimates continue to support the priorities of the 19th Legislative Assembly by:
- fostering strategic partnerships, including those with the federal and Indigenous governments, to deliver additional affordable housing for our residents, especially seniors and vulnerable persons;
- investing in energy-efficient solutions for both new construction and repairs;
- delivering increasing opportunities for home ownership; and
- expanding educational resources and supports for homeowners.
That concludes my opening remarks. Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses into the Chamber. Minister, could you please introduce your witnesses for the record.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. To the right of me, I have Mr. Franklin Carpenter, acting president and CEO, and to the left of me I have Jim Martin, vice-president, Finance and Infrastructure Services. Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Minister. For the Members, we will be doing one round of questions, so 10 minutes per activity, and if you can keep your questions to the activity. For the Minister and her witnesses, the Members only have 10 minutes, so if you can answer their questions to the point so that we don't use up their time, that would be appreciated. Thank you.
I will now open the floor to general comments on the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation. If there are no comments, does committee agree to proceed to the details contained in the tabled document?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Committee, we will defer the summary and review the estimates by activity summary, beginning with community housing services, starting on page 362, with information item on page 364. Questions? Members, any questions on this section? Member for Yellowknife Centre.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Madam Chair. Can I confirm that this is the appropriate section in which to raise the question of providing building materials to local housing authorities? Thank you.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Madam Chair. I read in the media that the NWT Housing Corporation was going to look at a program of supplying building materials to communities to do their own maintenance. I wonder if the Minister could tell us more detail about this program. Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife Centre. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, we do have funding to support community building initiatives. I will just have Vice-President Franklin Carpenter elaborate on that. Thank you.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Mr. Chair. What we are doing over the next four years is putting a big push on getting people into private home ownership, particularly in smaller communities. One of the things that we see as essential to supporting this is that they have access to building materials, and perhaps even services from our local housing organizations, and this is only going to be available in small communities where those services aren't currently provided. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you to the witness for that. Could he provide more program details, such as whether these building materials are for sale or are they granted, and is the labour paid or is it granted, and what the criteria is for applying, other than living in a small community, and some of the more immediate details of how this is going to work? Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife Centre. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. We do support Indigenous partnerships and partnerships within the Northwest Territories. We do have programs that would be able to work within certain deliveries. I will have Vice-President Franklin Carpenter elaborate on the program delivery in this area. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. The services or the materials are going to be fee-for-services. However, those households are encouraged to apply through our existing programming and, if they are eligible, the costs can be covered that way. The types of materials we're aiming to utilise, in our opinion, will be common materials that address emergency repairs; things such as water pumps or furnace-related heating equipment, that type of thing. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Madam Chair. What I don't understand here is that people are going to pay to fix up houses they don't own. Like, aren't these homes currently owned by the NWT Housing Corporation? Maybe the Minister could clarify that ownership situation with respect to the programming. Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife Centre. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. The programs would be identified with the stock that we own in the communities. The Housing Corporation doesn't own all infrastructure at the community level, but what is owned by the NWT Housing Corporation, we will be working with those. With the building supplies, that's meant for home ownership clients. Does that answer your question?
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation. Member for Yellowknife Centre.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Minister. So what I understand, then, is, if the client agrees to buy the home, then that client is eligible to apply for the building materials program. Is that correct?
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Madam Chair. Could the Minister tell us about what the equivalent program is for encouraging home ownership in Yellowknife? Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife Centre. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to elaborate on the programs that we have within Yellowknife to support home ownership. We do have a home ownership program that we do work with the client for the down payment assistance program for the Northwest Territories. I will just have the vice-president elaborate on that a little bit more, Franklin Carpenter. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. As the Minister indicated, we do have a down payment assistance program for the major centres like Yellowknife, and we also participate, where needed, in groups that promote the development of housing. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm not sure that I understood the witness's last sentence. Could he repeat that again, with some elaboration? Thank you.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. Our approach to addressing increasing housing in major centres is different than our approach in smaller communities. In the major centres, there are different stakeholders, whether it's the private market or the municipalities, so we engage with them to see what role we can play to encourage more development of housing. Perhaps in this case we could promote the co-investment fund that we just achieved from Canada through our bilateral agreement. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you for that. I didn't realize that the co-investment fund could be used for home ownership. Can the witness confirm that that, in fact, is the case?
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. The co-investment fund is directly used for partnerships, and it is not a home ownership program. I just want to elaborate that the support for the bigger centres is for the down-payment assistance that we do offer, and it's also for the home-repair program that we do have, if there is an individual or a private homeowner who has purchased their own home and they need renovations or fuel-tank replacement. For the co-investment fund, that would be through partnerships and investments. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Madam Chair. According to the Housing Corporation's own numbers, only 19 families have taken home ownership in Yellowknife in the last five years. How is the Housing Corporation going to work with families in Yellowknife to get them to take up home ownership and move them out of public housing to make room for the massive waiting lists of families that we have now? Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife Centre. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. Through our program delivery, we have started to do an assessment, where we would find high-income earners who are eligible for home ownership. We do have the initiative to work with our clients to transition them into becoming homeowners and guiding them through the process where they'd be able to purchase their own home, so that they're set up for success. There is a process with that, as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you. That seems like a reasonable approach. I understand that as many of 20 percent of families are at the top end of the rent scale, and so they might be able to afford home ownership. Is there any obligation on this group of high-income earners to go into home ownership, or can they continue to be public housing clients indefinitely? Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife Centre. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I realize that. When we have clients who have moved into our public housing units and they gradually change positions, they change lifestyles, they either decrease or they increase in the income that they are earning, we do work with them closely, and we do try to get them into the home ownership programs. The initiative is to counsel them because the Housing Corporation is almost like a social program delivery, as well. We make sure that we are setting our clients up for success. I hope that answered your question. I'm not too sure. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Minister. Are there any other questions under community housing services? Member for Hay River South.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. If I'm in the wrong section or off topic, please let me know. With respect to the MMIs on page 363, we are looking at a revised estimate for 2019-2020. It went up in 2020-2021 by $2 million. Can you elaborate on that? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I see there has been an increase in this section. I'm going to have my director of finance respond to the question.
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Martin
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, there was a $2.2-million increase from the 2019-2020 Main Estimates to the 2020-2021 Main Estimates. This is primarily explained by a couple of adjustments here. The first larger one is we have set aside $1.1 million in that budget to support additional demolition work in 2020-2021. We have particularly one larger building that we have to demo, expect to demo, in 2020-2021 that we will have to address. That's one larger item. We also increased modernization and improvement funding for local housing organizations in 2020-2021. That was an increase of approximately $200,000. We also added in $300,000 for LHOs, for additional collective bargaining requirements associated with the increases from the last collective bargaining agreement. We also set aside an additional $250,000 for designated subs and surveys, which involves environmental assessment work that has to be completed in advance of modernization and improvement projects. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. With respect to demolishing buildings, what's the criteria for that? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I see that this is an aging stock that we do have, and we do monitor the life of the buildings. I'm going to have the director of finance.
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Martin
Thank you, Madam Chair. The Housing Corporation undertakes a routine assessment of all of our own assets each year. We conduct unit condition ratings. For those assets that have essentially reached the end of their life in terms of age and condition, we would then identify those assets as surplus units, and then they would be integrated into our unit-disposition plan for the year and coming years. That's essentially how we identify housing assets or buildings that are in need of demolition. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. I take it it's based on age, so it's a good thing they're not looking after health. Another question I have is: you mentioned selling material within the communities; has the department talked to local businesses to see if they were able to take that on? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. The Housing Corporation emphasizes on local businesses, and I'm going to have Franklin Carpenter elaborate on this approach. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. Before we even start that initiative of selling materials and services, we are going to reach out to the local contractors to make sure we're not intruding on their business opportunities there. We're thinking of more isolated communities that are only accessible by air, where we'd need something immediately. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. The next area is to do with apprentices. I see that you have a few dollars in there for apprentices within the organization. Does the NWT Housing Corporation draw down on any of the financial support that ECE provides with respect to apprenticeships? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. We do emphasize on apprenticeships within the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation. We do work with ECE, as well, but then we do support the apprenticeships going forward, that are working within the local housing authorities. I'm going to have Jim elaborate on it a little bit more so he could determine how much we've invested into the training that has happened within the territory. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Martin
Thank you, Madam Chair. The Housing Corporation does maintain and support an apprenticeship program. This is a program that is separate and distinct from ECE's programming. The Housing Corporation sets aside the approximate $861,000 each year, and we utilize those funds to support approximately 12 apprenticeship assignments within our local housing organizations. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to go to contract services. I understand the Housing Corporation uses a number of contract outfits to do the work on the units. I also understand that there is something in place, a suspension list for some of the contractors who do work for the Housing Corporation. I am just wondering what the criteria is to get on that suspension list. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. We do have contractors within the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation who have defaulted on our projects, but we continue to work with local hire and small businesses. With the suspension list, I am going to have Franklin elaborate on that a little more. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. For a contractor to be suspended by the Housing Corporation is really a last resort. We make every effort to work with them to take corrective action on whichever contract they are involved in. However, if it comes to a serious point where it's impacting our clients, whether it's safety issues or heating issues or something like that, we will follow the steps and verbal warnings to written warnings and then place them on a suspension for a certain time period. We always encourage and work with those contractors on the way they could get back the ability to do our work by demonstrating. We will probably give them some small contracts after their suspension period. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am curious to know with respect to that: you are in a small community. You've got limited number of people there, looking after the projects with limited experience. To get on that list, I am wondering: if it is an issue with heating, do you have a heating specialist there? If it is to do with electricity, does the same guy who has the heating expertise decide whether it is electrical or whether it is carpentry or whatever? I am just trying to figure out who actually makes that call when it comes to the actual suspension. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I understand the question that we do have people working in the isolated communities and the determination of the quality of work that is being presented. We do have technical advisors at the district level who do follow up with the contracts. We do educate and support them through the lifetime of the contract. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Lesa Semmler Inuvik Twin Lakes
Thank you, Madam Chair. One of the questions, I know that it was brought up under the minor modernization and improvement because it jumped, the large infrastructure. Can the Minister confirm where that large infrastructure is?
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will just have the vice-president for finance and infrastructure services to respond. Thank you.
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Martin
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes. The large building that we have on the radar at this time for demolition next year is the Inuvik Sydney Apartments. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Lesa Semmler Inuvik Twin Lakes
Thank you, Madam Chair. Knowing what we know, that we have a shortage of single units and possibly a lot of people who could afford single units at a market rent, was there ever an opportunity to put this building up for sale first, before demolition? Thank you.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am familiar with the Sydney Apartments that you are speaking of. That it did end up becoming an item that was up for sale at some point. We did think of an initiative to going forward and working with that building, and we did recognize that there is a need for one-bedroom apartments. I will have Acting President, CEO to respond. Thank you.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. As Mr. Martin has mentioned, we do have a budget set aside to demolish that property. However, we have heard there might be some interest, so we are going to go out one last time and advertise it, see what response we get. If we don't get a response to repurpose that building or reuse it for some other reason, we will proceed down the demolition route. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Lesa Semmler Inuvik Twin Lakes
Thank you, Madam Chair. Since we are going down that area, I know in my community, there are other units that are on the future to be demolished. I am just wondering. I know some time ago, the same units, they did sell. The lots sold. Families are still living in those units that are privately sold. I am just wondering if there is a reason why those units haven't been put up for sale, as well. I am looking at the multi-builds that are down in my riding. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just need clarification. Are these vacant, multi-built houses in the Member's riding? Is that clear?
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Lesa Semmler Inuvik Twin Lakes
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes. These are vacant. I think they are shut-down, vacant, multi-builds. In the past few years, they've been renovated, they have brand new siding, they have new windows, and then they are sitting empty and now are being slated, I am understanding from a briefing that I got, to be possibly torn down. I am just wondering if there is an opportunity to sell them that people in my community with low income who may meet that threshold want to buy those before we tear them down after we spent money on putting new siding and new windows and stuff on them. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Julie Green
Thank you, Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes. Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I would have to get back to the Member because I am a little bit confused. I don't know if these areas are meant for -- because we do have RCMP units that are coming up, and we do need to build in the communities. I believe that Inuvik is getting 17, I am assuming. Yes, 17 units. I just need to be clear on where these units are. If they were renovated and if we don't have anybody living in them and if they were vacant, I need to verify if we are the owners of these units or if they are potential sales. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Lesa Semmler Inuvik Twin Lakes
Thank you, Madam Chair. The reason why I am addressing it is because it's been asked and I've asked the housing department why there are empty -- these were back from your department, from the Housing Corporation department, that they are slotted to be torn down. I just feel like there are some times we can make some money off these. Even if we need the lots for different functions, would they be considered to be sold because there are companies and people who may buy them and move them and put them somewhere else? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Julie Green
Thank you, Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes. Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I would have to follow up with the Member because I would like to see where these units are located, and I would like to verify the location and the condition of these units. If we do own them, then I would get back to the Member to see what the plan is going forward for them. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Marsi cho, Madam Chair. If I could turn your attention to page 363, I had a question on heating fuel. I noticed from the actuals from a couple years ago now to the mains, there hasn't been much change in that. I know that heating fuel is very expensive in a lot of the small communities. I am just wondering why this number from the actuals from couple of years ago now to the mains, there hasn't been much change in that. I know that heating fuel is very expensive in a lot of these small communities. I'm just wondering why this number is staying the way it is. Does the Minister believe this will be adequate to help out our small communities with their heating? Marsi cho.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I was too eager to answer the question. I see that our heating fuel subsidy, our program that is available within the Housing Corporation, I look at the programs that are available for this program to go forward and the criteria that is expected of it. I'm going to have Jim elaborate on the dollar amounts and to reflect the Member's question. Thank you.
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Martin
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, the Housing Corporation at this time has maintained the current budget at the same level as the previous year for the heating fuel requirements. In the past, our expenditures actually were up around that range a couple of years ago, so we have obviously been pleased that the fuel rates have been somewhat lower than they were a few years ago. Our recommendation and how we've established this budget is to keep the budget consistent for the time being to ensure that we have those dollars sufficiently in place to deal with future fuel rate increases. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Marsi cho, Madam Chair, and marsi cho for that answer. I just want to make sure I get this straight. Part of this line item, the seniors' home heating fuel subsidy, is part of that that program, as well? Marsi cho.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. The program that we're talking about is for public housing units. I'll have Mr. Carpenter elaborate on the response. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. As the Minister indicated, this whole section deals with our inventory of rental units. The majority of them are public housing units, and we have some units that we rent as market units. The heating fuel in here is the cost we pay for those rental units. It doesn't deal with any of our programming or the programming the Member alluded to. That's delivered through ECE. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for that answer. Moving on, I'm looking at another item here, the rent supplement leasing. This number seems to have fluctuated in the last couple years. Can the Minister just explain to me what this rent supplement we see is and is this final number going to be adequate for this fiscal year? Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. This is a program that is utilized, the majority of it is utilized, in Yellowknife. We don't have the number of public housing units that we currently have to meet the needs of the city, so this is a supplementary program that is used here to take care of the first month's rent and the damage deposit. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for the response from the Minister. What I'm gathering here is that there isn't a whole lot of access to this to the small communities, so this is mostly a Yellowknife program. Is that what the Minister is telling me?
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I would just like to clarify, my apologies to the Member, that I was looking at the program delivery that we have within the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation, and this is actually our community housing services. My apologies. I'm going to have Mr. Carpenter elaborate on this because it actually has to do with our department. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. The rent supplement leasing refers to units that we rent off private developers, that we utilize as public housing. We own a majority of our units in our public housing program, but we still, for the major centres where we require more units, actively rent those units. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you, Madam Chair. What I'm hearing right now still is that this is mainly a Yellowknife program. Was there still access for people in the regional centres and the smaller communities for this program? Is a lot of this money being used for those areas?
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I hope I can clarify this for the Member, but I just want to give a really strong example. We have limited public housing units available throughout the Northwest Territories, so the Housing Corporation actually leases out of private markets. We do have apartments that are within an apartment building, and the Housing Corporation leases a bunch of those apartment buildings within that from a private owner. We lease those out as public housing units. For an example, just to elaborate, two more seconds, is that, if we're in an apartment building and the person rents at $2,500, they could be downstairs paying $70 because it's a Housing Corporation unit. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Frieda Martselos Thebacha
Thank you, Madam Chair. First of all, I want to make a statement on housing. Housing is probably the most critical thing in the Northwest Territories, as an issue. I want clarification on co-investment fund for partnerships. Could you clarify that, if a partnership is like the Salt River First Nation or the Fort Smith Metis Nation and if they went and put a proposal together, Madam Chair, would they be entitled to the co-investment fund if they wanted to build, say, 10 units for their membership? I just want clarification on that, please.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Thebacha. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Madam Chair, yes, that is correct. If the Salt River wanted to put forward an application for the co-investment fund, that is correct. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Frieda Martselos Thebacha
I also, Madam Chair, would like to ask a question on the home ownership program. The lease-to-own, how do they determine the assessment, the value of the actual home ownership program, on the assessment value of the municipality? How is that determined if an individual wants to enter into the home ownership program? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Thebacha. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will have Mr. Carpenter elaborate on the home ownership program as it does come with it certain deals, I guess. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. As part of our objective to get more people into private home ownership, we've got this initiative called the lease-to-own. We're going to make available our detached inventory of public housing units, available to tenants who have steady and stable incomes, who want to enter into home ownership. The way we assess the value is we have an internal assessment calculator that we use. It's largely based on the age of the unit. Our inventory is, as many may know, fairly aged, so the value of these units is commonly not very high. We would also apply current programming to that to assist these tenants to become homeowners. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Frieda Martselos Thebacha
I also want to have clarification on the RCMP units that are being allocated for the community of Fort Smith. Are they going to be demolished, or are they going to be going into other lots? Because the units are in good condition, and I would like to see the units, if they come under the Housing Corporation or the housing authority or whatever way they are going to dispense of these units, that they are divided between the Fort Smith Metis Nation and the Salt River First Nation because, in the rental units, they are mostly Indigenous.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Thebacha. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. In regards to the old RCMP units that are there, they do have their own procurement process that they follow. I just want to elaborate a little bit that we did have some units that went up for sale in Norman Wells, but they ended up going over to the Indigenous groups. I'm not too sure what their process would be. I wouldn't be able to speak to it. I'm not too sure what their plans are for the older units. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Minister. I'm just going to clarify. The RCMP units, it's a different item, just because we're talking about the community housing. If there are further questions on the RCMP housing, is it under the programs and district operations. Can the Minister clarify? Minister.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
It is not identified in our main estimates because it is a federal program that is coming forward. Going forward, we will be identifying them because the Housing Corporation would be the department that would be administering them. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Just to clarify, the RCMP are not in our main estimates. Member for Thebacha, do you have any further questions?
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Frieda Martselos Thebacha
I am very much about accountability and transparency, and I want to just ensure, Madam Chair, that, with the local housing authority, that we ensure the needs of the community, and service from management at the local housing authority is that they serve the public, and I want to ensure, Madam Chair, that all the programs and services that are offered by the local housing authority should be advertised.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Thebacha. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, I will ensure that the programs that we have at the local housing authority and at the district level are advertised. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Minister. Member for Thebacha. Are there any further questions under community housing services? Member for Frame Lake.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. Is this the part of the Housing Corporation budget where the community housing plans would be found? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. It is not in this section. We're still in community housing services.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. Thank you for that information. Can the Minister tell us how many technical advisors the Housing Corporation has? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I would have to get back to the Member on the amount of technical advisors we have throughout the territory. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. Yes, I'm just looking at the organizational chart in the front. Is it fair to say that there's a technical advisor for each of the districts? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, that is correct. We have technical advisors in each of the district offices.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. Has there been any change in staffing levels for the technical advisors or a reduction in positions? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. There is an activity, I think it's four activities down, that goes through district operations, and I'm thinking that technical advisors would be under district operations staffing. Would you want to keep your questions until we get to that activity? Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. Yes, I'm happy to do that. I was just trying to pick up on my colleague's questions, my colleague from Hay River South, because he had some questions about technical advisors. I guess I just want to get some assurance that there's a proper level of resources given to the Housing Corporation so that communities or regions can get the maintenance work done on the units. If it's not in this section, I can ask elsewhere. Thanks, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just take that as a comment, that he'll wait until we get to the appropriate section.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Minister. This section, just for my clarification, if there are any further questions, this is for the local housing authority and their maintenance and their costs and their units, just to be clear, so we can stay on the right activity for low-cost housing. Thank you. We'll move on, then, to Member for Nunakput.
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Jackie Jacobson Nunakput
Thank you, Madam Chair, just in regards to picking up off of the RCMP housing units in the communities. Do you want me to go ahead, Madam Chair? I see your hand up.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
The RCMP units are not in this budget because they're not built, and they're not part of their budget until next year, is my clarification that we got. Thank you, Member for Nunakput.
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Jackie Jacobson Nunakput
I just want clarification, letting them know that we want those RCMP houses for my community. I know Frieda just said it. I just want to let it be known for the record that we need those houses. We're short houses. Just in regard to that, low-rental housing, we don't have enough of them in our communities, one single bedroom and two-bedroom multi-plex style house units. I'm wondering if in the communities that I represent in Nunakput, say for Paulatuk, for Tuktoyaktuk, for Ulukhaktok, are there any plans to build five- or six-plexes in the community? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Nunakput. I'll start your time now. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. Right now, currently, we have completion of a Tuktoyaktuk triplex that is to be completed May 1, 2020 of this year, and we have a completion of a four-plex that is to be done in Paulatuk June 1, 2020. Going forward, I don't have a list of the infrastructure projects that are going forward, but I'll have Mr. Martin elaborate on those activities. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Martin
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes. For the outlook for next year, the Housing Corporation is planning to deliver a new public housing duplex in Ulukhaktok.
We're also looking at delivering a new home; this is a single-family, multi-generational home in Tuktoyaktuk. That's our second new construction planned for 2021 in the communities mentioned. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Jackie Jacobson Nunakput
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just in regard to that, I wonder if there is any thought given to putting like a four-plex of single-dwelling units or one-bedroom apartments, because we have young families in my ridings, and they're just staying with families. It's pretty tough on everybody. So, to try to alleviate the pressure in regard to that, I'm just wondering if, instead of building a house in Tuktoyaktuk, could we put another four-plex in the community, if it's possible? Same thing for Ulukhaktok, Paulatuk; we're really needing not single-dwelling houses. We need multiplexes, because the young families are having babies, now, and creating their own families, but have nowhere to go. There are no rental houses, private rental units in the communities, so this would alleviate some pressure, because the lists are so long, you know. If that's possible, any thought given to it, because we're still a year out on it. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Nunakput. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. The delivery of public housing units is completed by an assessment on the need for each community and each district. I'm just going to have Mr. Carpenter elaborate on the project for Nunakput. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. Definitely, the need for singles, particularly public housing, is on our radar, because the amount of applicants, the majority of them is for single units. We are looking at that for our future plans, to get units that are specific for singles, whether they are bachelor units or one-bedroom units, in multiplex format; however, we're not there yet with our planning. Just to go back to when we talked about promoting home ownership, I know it sounds like we're just doing one home, but this is a really exciting project for us where we're building a four-bedroom home where one bedroom is barrier-free on the main floor. That is targeted at our public housing clients who have steady and stable income who can go into that unit, so we're really hopeful that a family and perhaps somebody in a seniors' home moves into those units once they are constructed. We want to get back into home ownership with these types of houses; we haven't done that, really, since the mid-1990s, when we used to be in a previous program that was quite popular. So we're excited; we want to get back into those types of projects. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Jackie Jacobson Nunakput
Thank you, Madam Chair. Every house, I guess, in the Housing Corporation is for sale in regard to people who want to purchase their housing that they're living in. Is that correct, Madam Chair? Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Nunakput. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am emphasizing detached units. These are not multiplexes or six-plexes; it's detached units that we are interested in selling. Thank you, Madam Chair. Sorry, and I'll have Mr. Carpenter elaborate on the program. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. In our public housing program right now, we have a really good system where we track our tenants and their incomes, and things like that. As the Minister said, we're looking at our detached units that have that type of tenant in there, where it would make sense that, if you meet the minimum income to go and become a homeowner, we're going to do everything we can to make that happen for you. What that does for us is, as we move more people into these detached units, we could look at future replacement units with those conditions that maybe it's more seniors or more singles, in modern multiplex configurations. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Jackie Jacobson Nunakput
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just in regard to that, when we build these units, the detached units that are sold to the clients in the communities who can buy the fuel, pay the power, and stuff like that, are these units taken out of our system, and then does CMHC give you the opportunity to get another unit to replace that unit in that community? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Nunakput. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. Looking at, I guess, maybe refurbishing the current stock that we have, because we do have aging public housing units, this is an initiative going forward. I'm going to have Mr. Carpenter elaborate on the program. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. We do have an agreement with CMHC that provides operating money for our public housing units. It doesn't apply to all of our public housing units; there are some units we operate on our own, with funding we receive from the government. It's a complex process, if there is CMHC money involved in a unit we're trying to sell, but we work our way through it in the best interest of the client. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Jackie Jacobson Nunakput
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, just in regard to that, I mean, when we were looking at the broader picture in regard to the planning of new housing units going into the communities, I think what they should be doing with the Minister is coming into the community. The housing stock that they do have, like, you know, we buy a lot of doors, we buy a lot of windows to try to keep those places warm. Like I said before, 1980s, 1990s, and 2000s; some of our units, we have old units in my riding. So the monies that they are putting forward and the house planning that they do have, they should be looking at replacing; not so much replacing, but getting units that are needed in the community, like single or double apartment buildings. That's more of a comment. I thank you for the work that you're doing; thank you.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I wanted to just conclude with the Member's comment. That's the purpose of our community plans, is to identify the core needs and the needs within their community, and what it is that they want us to build within their community. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Just in regard to CMHC funding and the declining O and M support, I'm wondering, for a long time, now, we have held the cap of housing units within the Housing Corporation at the 2,800-unit mark. I'm wondering if there is an appetite from the Housing Corporation to review that number and figure out how we could go about increasing the amount of public housing that we do have within the Northwest Territories, because we know that we are not meeting our housing needs currently within the Northwest Territories. Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Member, for your comment. I do realize that we do have the 2,800 units, and it just looks as if it's a cap, but I don't want to look at that. We're looking at the home ownership program and we're wanting to, I guess, recycle those units and move forward from it. The co-investment fund plays a significant role in this, so, looking at Indigenous partnerships and stakeholders that we would be able to partner with them and create more units going forward. I will pass the comment on for further clarification to Mr. Carpenter. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. The real answer on why we haven't expanded is cost. It's very expensive for us to operate and maintain a public housing unit. It typically ranges around $20,000 a year. We do need more. Our waiting list across the territories for public housing is over 950 right now. As I said before, our programming is different for major centres, as they have other housing options that might be available to people. Where we are really stuck is in what we call the rural and remote communities, the small communities where there are limited options, there are limited incomes. Right now, we are sitting with about 333 applicants there. We have heard situations where people have sat on that list for a very long time. It is those areas that the Minister has directed us to continue our efforts with Canada as a partnership to try to address that. We haven't really expanded our portfolio since the mid-1990s, so this is something we will have to keep working on. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I am wondering if the Minister can speak to how the Housing Corporation works alongside the Department of Education, Culture and Employment, given that their housing programming and income assistance programming are really tightly connected from the user's perspective. Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. Within our departments, we see a lot of collaboration going forward. There are a lot of similarities. We do have similarities, as well, with the department of health, and we are working towards an initiative of how we are going to be working with our clients going forward and try to simplify and clarify what programs and services are available to the public. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Just in working with constituents, I have noticed that there is some overlap and there are definitely similarities between the information that we collect from people from a housing standpoint, from a health standpoint, from an income assistance standpoint, but very much so from a housing and income assistance standpoint. I am wondering if there is an appetite with housing to work closely with Education, Culture and Employment to make that access and the reporting structures a lot more user friendly for the client. Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. Absolutely. There is an appetite to work closely with my colleague and looking at the structure programs that we do offer within the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Looking at page 363 under minor modernization and improvements to units, it is notable that that number has significantly gone up this year. What can we expect to see as far as how that will play out in public housing units? Where will that money go? Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. Looking at the significant change in the numbers, I will have Mr. Martin elaborate on the response. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Martin
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes. We certainly do note that there has been an increase from 2019-2020 to 2020-2021. The areas that were noted, we are setting aside about $1.1 million for additional demolition work in 2020-2021. We are looking at additional investment in minor modernization and improvement repairs for local housing organizations, additional collective bargaining funding for local housing organizations. We are looking at $250,000 additional for designated subcontracts and surveys, which are pre-environmental assessment work, basically, to support our modernization improvement projects. Those are the main increases. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Given that some of these improvements are things that will make, hopefully, units more cost effective to run because they are more efficient, will we end up seeing a difference going forward in the cost of utilities for public housing units? Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I hope we are able to see a difference, indeed, because we do build and we are renovating to be more energy efficient within our public housing units. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
[Microphone turned off] ...for the NWT Housing Corporation, community housing services? If not, please turn to page 363, NWT Housing Corporation, community housing services, operations expenditure summary, 2020-2021 Main Estimates, $58,268,000. Does committee agree?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, committee. Now, we will be going over to page 365, NWT Housing Corporation, executive, with information items up to 367. Are there any questions under the executive? Member for Hay River South.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just looking at page 365 where it states that the executive there manages the implementation of the government's direction related to housing services, can the Minister tell me what is the direction she received from this government with respect to delivery of services? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. It is within our mandate letter. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. Is it possible for the Minister to expand on that for the people of the NWT to hear? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am just going to have Mr. Carpenter elaborate on the question. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. It is really the items that are set out in the mandate priorities, which was increase the stock of affordable housing units of 100 units over four years. We have the transition of 100 individuals to home ownership, increase seasonal part-time employment; developing skills of community trade people; increase availability of childcare spaces, I suppose; increase supports for seniors; and improve services for individuals with addictions to return to their communities. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. With respect to the strategic and operational direction, has the department put something together in writing with respect to that strategic and operational planning? Is there a plan in place, or are they working on something? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. We are working towards our annual business plan right now. It is not complete. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. With respect to qualitative and quantitative research that is being done, what is the criteria for that? Has it changed over the years, or do we just follow the same process year after year? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will have Mr. Martin elaborate on the response. Thank you.
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Martin
Thank you, Madam Chair. The Housing Corporation does undertake numerous studies year-to-year to inform our investments, to inform our program renewal efforts. Examples would be the recent seniors planning study that was completed. That is a study that identified a number of areas that could certainly benefit from additional investment in seniors' housing. We are certainly taking that into account. We also participate with the statistics bureau every four years, complete the core needs survey. Again, this is a very important document for the corporation to inform our work and our efforts. We also undertake a range of technical studies, as well, and research with various parties, such as CMHC and Enercan. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. With respect to technical studies, I know the Housing Corporation is always looking at ways to improve efficiencies with respect to heat loss and that type of thing. I guess you do studies, as well, to see the cost of doing nothing versus the cost of making changes. Is there a big cost savings between doing nothing and just leaving houses as they are? Because I look at it like we've got a cost of maybe, if you have some high-end equipment and you have to fly people in from Yellowknife to fix it, and on, and on, there is that cost associated, as well, so I'm always skeptical of that, by making something energy-efficient, you've got no problems; you've got all these other things. So is it advantageous for us to actually go above and beyond with the technical aspect of housing? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to say absolutely, because we do deal with and we do have clients within the higher part of the Arctic and we do have to invest in our public housing units to make sure that they are cost-effective and that they are affordable. As we go forward and look at these units, it does cost the Housing Corporation quite a bit to maintain and, looking at the future development, like, we're looking at wanting to set our clients up for home ownership. So I hear the Member's comments on are we going to weigh this out, but, you know, we work with what we have and we try to enhance for the betterment of the Northwest Territories and our clients. I'll have Mr. Carpenter elaborate on the response. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. In terms of the technologies and the systems we use nowadays, the Member is right, we really have to be careful of over-designing or the types of new technologies we put in, because they have to be able to be serviced by our staff, or even in the communities. There is a lot of new technology out there that is really sophisticated. Some of it is really complex to maintain. Some of it is tough to get parts for, so we watch all of those. Even with our ventilation systems, it takes an education component for our tenants, our clients, to utilize those systems, to deal with moisture in their houses that may cause mould, and those types of things. Those are things, when we're designing new buildings or new programming, we really have to take into account those types of things, that we're doing the right thing with those technologies and building styles. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. You had mentioned earlier, you had discussed rent supps. Can the Minister tell me if there has been a comparison done, I guess, between the cost of rent supps and NWT-owned structures and, you know, if it's cheaper one way or the other? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll have Mr. Carpenter elaborate on the rent supps and the differences between the rent supps and becoming a homeowner. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Minister. Just to clarify, that was what you were asking, Member for Hay River South?
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes. My understanding is that the rent supps are buildings that are owned by a third party, and then you have the Housing Corporation-owned. I just want to know the comparison costs between operating or maintaining those two. Is it cheaper to just get people to build you units and rent it off them? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Member, for clarifying your question. I'll have Mr. Carpenter respond. Thank you.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. In terms of the volume of our inventory, the number of owned units we have is 2,644, and the number of units we lease is 200, so it's really a small portion, and it's likely that, in the coming years, you will see that 200 diminish. It's just easier for us when we do our own maintenance on our units, that it's better. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just one last question, here. My understanding is that a lot of the employees in housing are currently aging, and they are going to be retiring. What plans does the corporation have in place to bring on new recruits? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I recognize that, as well. I'll have Mr. Carpenter elaborate on that response. Thank you.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. The Member is correct. We have a lot of staff; we have 128 positions that operate public housing for us throughout the territories, and a lot of them are long-tenured; some of them, in excess of 35 years, long-term employees. In terms of succession planning, we are in constant communication with them about, you know, when they're planning to retire. For the maintenance side, we have a heavy focus on apprenticeships in those areas. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Mr. Carpenter. I will move on to the Member for Yellowknife North.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess I will begin with: why does the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation not have a board?
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife North. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will revert this question over to Mr. Martin. Thank you.
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Martin
Thank you, Madam Chair. Well, looking back a few years ago, the Housing Corporation did have a board. However, at the time, there were studies done and there were some organizational changes made that resulted in the Housing Corporation reporting directly to the Minister. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. It's an odd theme of our government that we consistently demand to give us less power, whether it be the Power Corporation being run by boards of the Aurora College getting rid of its board altogether, and now also the Housing Corporation. I guess my problem is, with all due respect, this is not a question for staff; this is a question for the Minister. I mean, her staff is not in a position of whether to change the governance structure. That's only something that can be done at the political level. So my question is: would the Minister be willing to look into reinstating a board for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation?
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife North. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. It would be something that I would like to just take a look at and see how active we were when the board existed, what decisions were made, what programs were happening at that time, compared to how effective they actually would be in this time. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate the Minister looking into that. I do think there are some very large structural governance issues with the Housing Corporation that will require political restructuring. On that, we have local housing authorities, all of which have boards. There is always the trade-off; the more local control we give to the housing authorities, you know, we get better decisions on the ground, but each of those cost us money to run. We also know they're not exactly the best at collecting rent. Is the Minister planning on looking at the governance structure of the housing authorities across the territory?
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife North. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I recognize that this was a concern throughout the Northwest Territories and how the boards do program delivery at the community level, but yet we're looking at communities making decisions on their own, and we're looking at them structuring on their own. With my leadership, I want to go down, up; for the community members to tell the government what it is that they want, instead of the government coming forward and saying, "This is what we're going to give you." So it opens up the table for discussion. I'm quite interested because times have changed, and we do have some scenarios that are happening at the community level that would need a little bit more support. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess one of my concerns with the local housing authorities is that in many communities you have the housing authorities, you have the Indigenous government, you have the municipal government; we essentially have three or four voices who you could define as the community. I know we're developing a number of community housing plans, I'm supportive of those. I think the first one we've seen is definitely a step in the right direction. In part of those community housing plans would the Minister be looking at changing governance models? I think there is potential here to essentially get rid of some of the local authorities, pass over the funding to Indigenous governance. Is that something we would be looking at in those community housing plans?
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife North. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. This is an approach that we've already initiated throughout the Northwest Territories. We have working groups with the Tlicho, right now, that have been successful, where they've identified housing needs and programs within their area. Deline has approached us, as well. They are a self-governing community. We haven't had very much interest in communities wanting to take over the housing initiative and the housing program. It's time coming, but we're there working and educating them on what it takes to program deliver the Housing Corporation. I do realize that we do have the Indigenous groups, the municipalities, but, to be honest, we haven't had very much interest. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm aware, you know, that Indigenous governments will take on powers when they want, but I wouldn't be interested, and I don't think anyone would be interested, in taking on housing without the money there. We all know it's a struggle. I think a lot of the Indigenous governments are capable of doing this and would if they knew they were also going to get the funding that the local housing authorities get. Would the Minister be willing to take a bit of a proactive approach here and make offers regarding what we would actually offer to fund the Indigenous governments? To just download housing but not give them any money is nonsensible.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife North. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. With my experience, that would work with some of the self-government initiatives throughout the Northwest Territories, and, to be honest, the housing is considered but it's more wanting to be supportive. I see the territories as kind of reluctant and with our programs and support that we have initiated the independence for stakeholders throughout the Northwest Territories through our program delivery, and that needs a lot of support, as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. I look forward to further discussions on this. I've spoken with a number of Indigenous governments who, if the Housing Corporation and the local housing authorities would simply be transferred over to them, and the funding and the units, they would gladly take that on and they would go to CMHC and get better funding than us. I'll continue to talk about this.
I wanted to speak a bit about the cap on units. I know the Minister doesn't like thinking of it as a cap, but that is simply what it is. I've heard a number of numbers; 2,400 units is what I understood are public housing, but I understand we manage around 2,800, but then I also heard 2,600. Can I just get some clarification on those different numbers I hear?
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife North. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
I'll have Mr. Carpenter elaborate on the amount of units and clarification on what it is that the Housing Corporation administers and how. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to give Member the specifics on what we're operating as our public-housing-unit inventory that we're running right now is 2,418. We also run some units under what we call affordable housing, that we rent out as a home ownership type program at 221. We have a portfolio of 190 units in what we call our market units. These are in communities where there is no private market. They're typically rented to teachers and nurses. That should get us close to the 2,800 figure. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. I do appreciate that breakdown, and I guess it wouldn't be fair for us when referring to the cap to include market because, if we can build more market housing and then it pays for itself or even makes us money, then that's great. I guess my question is: I'm not satisfied with our current mandate commitment which says we'll build 100 units if we can convince 100 people to get units. In many of the communities, a house is not an investment; it's a depreciating asset, and we're just passing on something that will never increase in value to a person. I question whether that's ethical or something we even want to do in nonmarket communities. The heart of this matter is Nunavut's building hundreds of new units. They've managed to get money out of CMHC; they managed to surpass their cap, so will the Minister of housing meet with the appropriate Minister in Ottawa and try to get us above this 2,400-unit cap?
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife North. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I actually had made a trip down to Ottawa in February, and I wanted to just elaborate on that trip a little bit. I did identify the housing needs for the Northwest Territories, and I also did meet with the housing Minister for Nunavut, as well. Looking at the support that we have in the Northwest Territories, they do have an advocacy group where they do have ITK. In the Northwest Territories, we have our Indigenous groups, but it's challenging to get them all together to lobby at the same time so that we're able to achieve a certain amount of federal dollars coming forward. Going forward, I have instructed my staff to make their way down to Ottawa and lobby, as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Madam Chair. I have questions that follow along from my colleague, the Member for Yellowknife North. I know that the Housing Corporation has invested money in research such as the seniors study and the community survey, which includes the housing need numbers, and that they are now investing in community plans. My specific question is: how does funding relate to the results of all of these studies? The seniors study says we need more seniors' housing. The community survey shows more housing need in 2019 than 2014. I'm going to say the community plans are going to say we need more houses. How is the study going to be related to the funding for the results? Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife Centre. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I know there are a lot of studies that we've done, but they've been done over a significant amount of years. Looking at the changing of the wants in the communities, what we could identify was that the communities are wanting to build. We have a different approach. We want information from the community to determine what it is that we're going to be putting on the ground. Maybe they want home ownership or home repair, or do they want public housing units? That's what that study determines. If we're going to be going in and we're going to be building a bunch of market units and putting them in the communities, is that community going to actually be able to afford those units, looking at the cost of living, as well, and really trying to structure how we're going to program deliver through the Northwest Territories? Those plans really identify what is needed throughout the territory. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate the answer from the Minister. We actually already have some documents that are current, that show what's required, such as the community survey which was done a year ago. It talks about the housing that's unaffordable, needs repair, not large enough for the people. I'm not getting my head around how much more information you need in order to make the investments that will produce more housing in the communities. Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife Centre. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. When I went to Ottawa, I met with the Nunavut Minister for Housing, and he had a similar approach in looking at what is identified in the community and looking at what is feasible. These plans and these studies identify: are we going to be energy efficient going forward; the people in the community, are they going to be able afford the houses that we are putting on the ground; are we going to be able to afford the houses going on the ground; and what style do we need?
I know it seems like there were a lot of reports, but then, looking at what needs to be delivered, just for an example, right now, the Member for Nunakput expressed that they need duplexes, single units. The Housing Corporation has come forward, and we're putting in a multi-unit. That is something where the community plan would have identified what style of houses are to be in that community and what is more cost effective, if we were to build a triplex or else a duplex. I'm not too sure. Just for an example, that's what I would rely on those plans for. Looking at the feasibility and the amount of houses that are going to be put on the ground, if we could stretch the dollar that we have, and if we are to be instructed by the community to say, well, we want a nine-plex or, no, we want to become homeowners, then it changes up the dynamic of the community. We also look at the income and the amount of employment that is in that community.
I hope I answered your question, but I'm going to have Mr. Carpenter elaborate on it a little bit more. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just in terms of those specific studies, they're very valuable to us in that they help us plan, or where we're going to target our investments. For example, the seniors study, we looked at it, and there are a couple of major centres that stuck out for us. The Minister has given us direction that seniors are very important for the next four years for her, and two communities that stuck out for us are Yellowknife and Hay River. Those are two areas we're really going to look at, what can we do in terms of partnerships or projects over the next four years.
The needs survey, same thing, we're waiting for the final results to get the core need numbers, but the study that came out had a couple of items that stuck out there, too, which was affordability and adequacy. When that comes out, we have to take a hard look at our programming to make sure it remains responsive to those types of issues.
The other one I mentioned earlier is we look at our waiting list. When you see that the waiting list is dominated by singles, that really drives. We have to think about that, what can we do to address that, and things like that. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. My understanding is that there are community housing plans underway now. Can the Minister tell us at what cost and when they will be completed? Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife Centre. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Martin
Thank you, Madam Chair. For 2020-2021, the Housing Corporation has set aside $336,000 to support a community planner for the corporation, to support that activity in-house. Also, the balance of those dollars will be used to support engagement sessions with the various communities and associated promotion, advertising. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Madam Chair. I didn't get an answer to when the 33 plans are going to be finished. If I could ask that again, please?
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife Centre. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Sorry, I didn't answer that question. The 33 plans are to be done by the end of my term. I am really pushing my department now to, honestly, get a majority of them done by April because I need to submit something to Ottawa. I need these numbers. I need the studies done so I could present something. I want to make my way down, and they're looking at their budget for November. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Madam Chair. The sooner the better. What I hear is that people are caught in a more or less continuous cycle of study, which may be valuable to the Housing Corporation, but I'm going to say bluntly is of questionable value to the end user and simply because I don't hear that there is in fact more housing. In Yellowknife, in Hay River, we need more housing for seniors. I don't know of any projects that are going to be built this year for seniors. I'm just going to ask one more time to go back up to my original question which is: how do the studies actually relate to investing in housing? There just seems to be a disconnect here. We've got lots of information, but we don't have lots of end result for the people who are waiting for housing. Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife Centre. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to quickly elaborate because I wanted to look at the structures that we built that were determined by those plans going forward. We went and looked at the study for seniors, so then we put seniors' complexes in the majority of the districts, in the regions, looking at that and trying to have them age in place. Looking at multi-built units that need to be established and put on the ground, in Yellowknife, specifically, the majority of the units that are here are public housing, but then, we do lease off of the private in the city. I'm going to have Mr. Carpenter elaborate on this a little bit more. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will speak to the item I should have elaborated on before, where we said that the seniors study said that projects in Yellowknife and Hay River stuck out the most. What that does for us is we're going to be reaching out now to different stakeholders in these two areas to see where we can help to get a project started up. Where I mentioned before that we've been successful with Canada to achieve a carve-off of the national co-investment fund, that's going to be a really good program to leverage federal dollars and perhaps some GNWT dollars to get projects like this off the ground. We will be reaching out, seeking partnerships or encouraging partnerships for those types of things. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Mr. Carpenter. Committee, we will take a short recess and resume in about ten minutes.
---SHORT RECESS
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
All right. We're going to call committee back to order, and we are going to continue on where we were, in NWT Housing Corporation, executive, operation expenditures summary. Questions. Member for Thebacha.
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Frieda Martselos Thebacha
Madam Chair, I just want to ask a question. As you know, in the community of Fort Smith, or the constituency of Thebacha, the standard of living is the lowest in the Northwest Territories to live. We have a very aging population, and we have a lot of seniors in the community of Fort Smith, therefore I'm wondering why only Hay River and Yellowknife are included in that community planning policy that is being put together in these next couple of years. I would like to ensure that consideration for the community of Fort Smith is also in the planning. Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Thebacha. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I was under the impression that all 33 communities were going forward with the housing plans. I will have Jim elaborate on it a little bit more. Thank you. Sorry, I mean Mr. Martin. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Martin
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, the Housing Corporation did undertake the seniors planning study. The Phase I of that study, the focus was on Yellowknife and Hay River. There were some subsequent reviews done, as well, more statistical-type studies, analysis, tabletop analysis, but it is recognized that there is further research that will need to be drawn upon for the other communities; but, at this stage, we have completed an in-department review of Yellowknife and Hay River. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Frieda Martselos Thebacha
Madam Chair, I'm not really satisfied with that answer. We have a lot of retirees and aging population and seniors in the community of Fort Smith, and I would like to make sure that the Housing Corporation would reconsider making sure that Fort Smith is part of that planning process, and they are included.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Thebacha. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. To elaborate on the response, I'm going to have Mr. Carpenter respond. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just in follow-up to what I said before about the programming such as the co-investment fund, we said we would reach out to organizations in Yellowknife and in Hay River, but it doesn't mean we're just locked in on those two communities. We will reach out to organizations in places like Fort Smith to not only promote the program but see what interest is there, as well, to participate in seniors projects. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Frieda Martselos Thebacha
Thank you, Madam Chair. I know that the waiting list for senior units in Fort Smith is a long one. Some seniors have to wait a long time to get into one of the units, and many of the seniors in Fort Smith would prefer to be in their own units. As I know, as I told you before, there is a long waiting list, and sometimes it takes up to two years or so before they get into a unit, so therefore I'm concerned about the availability of housing for seniors and our aging population in the community of Fort Smith.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Thebacha. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will follow up with the Member in regard to the seniors' available units in her riding. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I was told this was the place where I could ask about the community housing plans. The Minister said that there are 33 to be developed. How are the community housing plans going to be done in, say, the regional centres, including Yellowknife? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. Drafting and putting these community plans together, we have 13 participants so far and we've completed one. My push is that I want the majority of these community plans to be completed and done by August of this year. I'm going to have Mr. Martin elaborate on the community plans going forward. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Martin
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, as the Minister alluded to, the community housing plans are a priority for the corporation. We recognize the importance of what they're going to provide in terms of informing future investment and partnerships. As the Minister mentioned, this will continue to be a top priority for the corporation, and our aim is to make significant progress between now and August, as the Minister alluded to, and certainly we'll continue to work with the communities and also take into consideration their needs in terms of timing, et cetera, as these plans unfold. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll have Mr. Carpenter elaborate on the community plans, as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just in terms of the question related to our approach to working with major centres like Yellowknife, we would have to work with all the stakeholders involved, particularly the city, and we have to find out what our role is that they want us to play in the development of that plan. It might be a small one, it might be a major one, but we haven't yet determined that with the city. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I'd like to thank the last speaker, who actually answered my question, which is about how there is going to be a different approach with I'll call them the tax-based communities. Have there been any preliminary discussions with any of the tax-based communities about how they're going to approach developing the an approach with we will call them the tax-based communities. Have there been any preliminary discussions with any of the tax-based communities about how they are going to approach to helping the community housing plans? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am going to have Mr. Carpenter elaborate on the answer. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Carpenter
In terms of us reaching out or being contacted by the major centres, not yet. Right now, it is a new initiative for us. The ones that we have been dealing with have been actively coming forward to us. What we are doing now is to strengthen up our activity towards reaching out to all communities to see how interested they are to get this process going. We haven't reached out to the major centres yet. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I guess I am going to make a suggestion here to the Minister and her staff that a scheduled work plan for getting all of these 33 done would be really helpful. I agree. I think approaching the tax-based municipalities is going to be a different kind of process and involve different partners and so on. The City of Yellowknife has a homelessness strategy. They survey the number of homeless people in the community. There is quite a bit of work that the city's done. There are a lot of NGOs here in town that are doing work on this issue, as well. My suggestion to the Minister is to develop a timeline for this work to make sure it actually gets done and set out in there different kinds of approaches they need to take for the tax-based communities.
I want to turn now to some of the numbers that are on page 366. Policy and planning, there is what looks like a large increase of $400,000 between 2019-2020 and 2020-2021. When I look down into the expenditure categories, it seems to be made up of an increase in compensation in benefits and travel. Those seem to be some of the major areas, contract services, as well. Can someone tell me what is going on with this part of the Housing Corporation? This is a relatively large increase in expenditures, and I would like to know what this is related to. Thanks, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am going to have the question reverted to Mr. Carpenter. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. In terms of the major increase there, most of it is related to what we might have mentioned earlier, that we set aside money there of over $236,000 for the community planned activity. That was to support these community engagement costs. Part of that development of the community plan, too, is that we hire. Whenever we get into a community, we make sure we hire somebody local to participate in that process. It is a really community-driven process. The other funding that makes up that increase is, we will see it in a lot of our costs here, forced-growth increases related to the UNW collective bargaining process. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. That is a helpful explanation. I certainly support the development of the community housing plans. This is the section of the Housing Corporation budget that seems to deal with federal, provincial, territorial matters, as well. In November of 2018, the bilateral agreement with CMHC on the National Housing Strategy was signed by our government. I don't think I've seen an action plan that spells out how that money is going to be used. I thought that was a requirement of the funding agreement. We are now a year and a half into this nine-year program, and I still haven't seen an action plan. When is the corporation going to have an action plan? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. In regard to the action plan that was developed in 2018, I am going to have Mr. Carpenter elaborate on that.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, we did sign our bilateral agreement with Canada in November 2018. Part of the requirements of all the bilaterals across Canada is that provinces or territories are obligated to develop three-year action plans throughout the duration. We have been working on that since then. All of the provinces and territories have been. We are pleased to announce that we just got ours approved and signed off recently. We plan to table that during this session so the Members can see that action plan. That action plan includes priorities related to maintaining our existing social housing stock, repairing and replacing where possible, and there is some money in there for home ownership repairs, as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. Is there any money in there for new housing to be built and added to the stock? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will have Mr. Martin elaborate on the question. Thank you.
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Martin
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes. As Mr. Carpenter alluded to, in the action plan, there are a number of areas that we are planning to invest in. One of them is the repair and replacement of existing housing stock. That would be an example of where we would be constructing new public housing, for example. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I am kind of anxious to see this plan. I wish that it had been shared even in draft form with Regular MLAs before it had been signed off on. That is more of a comment than anything else. I would encourage the Minister to do that in the future. Thanks, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Are there any further questions under the NWT Housing Corporation, executive? Seeing none, Northwest Territories Housing Corporation, executive, operations expenditure summary, 2020-2021 Main Estimates, $2,528,000. Does committee agree?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, committee. We will now move on to finance and infrastructure services, beginning on page 368, with information items on 370 and 71. Questions. Member for Kam Lake.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I am wondering if the Minister can explain the first item on page 369, debt repayment, which has grown substantially since the 2018-2019 actuals. Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Martin
Thank you, Madam Chair. The debt repayment component represents the annual debt payments that the Housing Corporation makes under the Social Housing Agreement. The components in there are both an interest component, which is approximately $370,000, as well as we do budget for the principal portion. That is the balance of the $955. The previous year actuals, that represents a net amount of the debt payments. You can see that the actual payments in the previous year, under mortgage payments, social housing agreement, you'll see that that is $463,000. That represents the interest portion.
From an audit standpoint, you report your expenditure for interest, but the principle portion would have been charged against the debt obligation. What you are seeing here is just the interest portion. However, the Housing Corporation does budget for both because we do need the cash set aside in our fiscal framework to accommodate both payments.
The combination of the "mortgage payments - social housing agreement" $463,000 in the previous actuals, 2018-2019, are netted with the valuation allowance of $350,000. You will see that as a credit. Those two net together to give you the hundred. The hundred, the valuation adjustment, just to explain that as well, the valuation adjustment represents an adjustment that was made on the mortgage receivable portfolio. This past year, the Housing Corporation's mortgage valuation improved, so it ended up being an offset to the expenditure. Lots of details, but that does explain the change. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. The next line item is finance and administration, and then the third is financial planning, which was broken away from finance and administration. I'm wondering if you can explain what is encompassed in that line item, please?
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Martin
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, the financial planning section, we have two staff who are in that area. Their primary focus is to support the Housing Corporation and the development of our main estimates, supporting with the annual business planning process as well as our capital planning process. It's a focused shop, basically, in those areas. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Thank you very much. Are these staff members also responsible for liaising with CMHC? Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Is there a staff member within the Housing Corporation currently that liaises with CMHC and creates that relationship, and, if so, what division are they found in? Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. Currently, we don't have a position right now that deals directly with CMHC. It is the president who deals directly with them. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Thank you very much. In the absence of the president, would that be one of the vice-presidents who would take control of that role? Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Thank you very much. I'm going to switch gears here a little bit and talk about waste management a little bit because we sat with ENR yesterday and talked about our responsibility as a government to look toward including waste management and disposal of construction material when we're doing buildings in the Northwest Territories. Does the Housing Corporation have a waste management plan for the buildings that they produce within their communities, or do they have an expectation of waste management for contractors whom they hire to do that work? Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. That is a very important question. I'm going to have Jim elaborate on that, what we do with the material. Sorry, "Mr. Martin." Thank you.
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Martin
Thank you, Madam Chair. When we structure our contracts, the contractors who are carrying out the demolition work for the Housing Corporation, the expectation is that they will adhere to all of the local and territorial laws in ensuring the safe disposition of building materials post the demolition. We would look to the contractors to ensure that that is done. If we're doing the work ourselves, then we would also do the same. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. The Northwest Territories currently has a very high per-capita landfill. Our landfills are quickly filling, and I'm wondering if the Housing Corporation will be able to work with ENR to put in some policies or legislation that would allow them to be more mindful of the waste that they are creating within our communities and to be able to work also with procurement and with contractors to make sure that we're taking that into consideration when we're hiring people or when we're doing work ourselves within communities. Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, I will take that comment and that recommendation from the Member. Thank you.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to just ask some questions first about homelessness initiatives. They are $2.9 million in this budget. Can the Minister remind us when the homelessness strategy is going to be complete? Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife Centre. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you. Is the intention of that strategy to provide a rationale for additional investment in homelessness initiatives? Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife Centre. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, that's correct, and it's throughout the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Madam Chair. At what point will the request for additional funding for homelessness initiatives come forward, following the completion of the strategy? Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife Centre. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to revert the question to Mr. Martin. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Martin
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, this is a very important document coming forward, that we're looking forward to having to inform future engagement with the federal government as well as to inform priority setting with our existing resources, as well. Those decisions and engagement activities would follow shortly after the release of that study. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for that response. What I understand is, there's no new money that will be allocated to homelessness initiatives; it will either be reprofiled from other programs and services in the Housing Corporation, or it will come from the federal government. Is that correct? Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife Centre. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. We are looking at pursuing additional federal funding to deal with the homelessness issue throughout the territory, in working with the Indigenous partnerships and really relying on partnerships going forward. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm a little discouraged to hear that because, if there's no federal engagement at this point, it means that the money is a long way out, and, up to this point, I'm not sure what success there's been with partnerships on housing with Indigenous government organizations. For example, maybe the Minister could tell us about existing partnerships around homelessness with Indigenous government organizations? Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife Centre. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. Throughout the Northwest Territories, we have different initiatives that we have, funding that is available through our programming and that we enhance shelters throughout the Northwest Territories. Looking for new funding going forward, I just really want to emphasize that this is why the community plans are very important. I did go to Ottawa, and I did see that Nunavut had displayed a document that was something that the Minister was able to reference and being able to review in regards for the need for homelessness in that territory in Nunavut. This is why I wanted the majority of the community plans to be completed in August. This is specifically why. I want to make my way down and lobby for more money to deal with our homelessness issue and to put more houses on the ground, and this absolutely has to be done in August. I want a report completed and done by September, so I have something to present when I get down there in November. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just a couple of follow-up questions. Are there any existing partnerships with Indigenous government organizations that specifically relate to homelessness? Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife Centre. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I got a little bit passionate there about the information collaboration, and really lobbying on behalf of the territory. I will have Mr. Carpenter elaborate on the programs and the partnerships that we have that address homelessness in the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. We are really excited about our Northern Pathways to Housing program. This is a program where we partner with typically an Indigenous community organization to put up a building that is for typically homeless people, and this is the only program that is targeted at communities outside major centres, or mainly targeted. We have some on the ground right now that are doing very well. We have one up in Aklavik; we have a four-plex there. We have one out in Behchoko. We have one down in Fort Simpson, and we have one out in Fort Good Hope, there. This is where we have worked really hard to develop a relationship with an operator. We've provided funds to renovate or build a new building, and we're quite excited about that one.
Another one is we've talked about our community housing support initiative. That is something in-house where we will contribute to community projects will have some sort of benefit to addressing homelessness. The other one I keep promoting, or I've mentioned several times, is the co-investment fund. That's going to be another avenue where we will get some homelessness projects off the ground. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to use the rest of my time to talk about the Transitional Rent Supplement Program. I see that the 2018-2019 actuals, the fund wasn't fully subscribed. Has the Housing Corporation gained some insight into why this program isn't usually fully subscribed? Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife Centre. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am going to have Mr. Carpenter elaborate on this rent supplementary program. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. The Transitional Rent Supplement Program, we like the program. We've always wanted to see it more fully subscribed, but what we've done is we've included it in this year's planning because, as part of our bilateral agreement, Canada is coming out with a program called a Canadian Housing Benefit, and that's going to be a program that is going to be delivered or provide a benefit right to individuals for housing. Our plan, or our intent, or our hope is that that program is going to take over for the TRSP. Our plan is we're hoping that it takes over so that we can wind down our TRSP program. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm not sure that I got an answer to the functional part of this question, which is why the program wasn't fully subscribed and what the lessons are going forward with the newt Canada Housing Benefit. Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife Centre. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will have Mr. Carpenter elaborate further. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. We really don't have a clear understanding, as well, why the program wasn't fully subscribed. We spent a lot of time and effort contacting private landlords, promoting the program as much as we could. We advertised it in the public and the communities. Despite all those efforts, though, we didn't get the levels of participation that we wanted out of the program. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you. This program would have been prime for an evaluation to really get even more detail about why it didn't take off, given, on the face of it, it looks like it's much-needed. Can the Minister say whether the Canada program is going to be a one-size-fits-all program, or will there be a unique set of criteria that apply to the NWT? Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife Centre. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I see the importance of this program going forward, and I would like to elaborate on it going forward and looking at a lot of advertisement that could take this to another level. I'm going to have Mr. Carpenter elaborate on this. Thank you.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. The Canada Housing Benefit was anticipated or scheduled by Canada to be developed and rolled out on April 1. That's not going to happen, we were advised. We're not clear on when that program is being rolled out. It's still under development, so we don't know any of the details. We do participate in some working groups on that program, but we just don't have any details to release on that at this point. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. Can the Minister elaborate a bit on the federal and territorial funding, the operating agreements, and just explain to me, I guess, what they are and who they're with, and if it's basically more suited for Yellowknife? Yes, is it in Yellowknife or is it in something that affects the whole NWT? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. The federal agreements that we do have in place, they are for the whole of the Northwest Territories, and not just one area to be fully experiencing the funding and the benefits that the programs have to offer. I'm going to have Mr. Carpenter elaborate on the agreements that we have in place. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. The Minister pretty much captured it. We mentioned our unit inventory earlier; that's the operating funding for that portfolio, all over the territories. We do have the unilateral operating agreements. Those are agreements that, when we signed our agreement with Canada back in the mid-1990s, I believe, we picked up some of their programming. One that stands out for those of you from Yellowknife is the North Slave Housing Corporation. We picked up operating money for them that we flow through to them, as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm pleased to hear that we're discussing homelessness today, and the need for emergency shelters, but I guess I'm kind of perplexed on exactly what an emergency shelter is. Because I look in the communities, and you've got people living on the street when it's minus 40, and the government, the department wants plans provided to them saying that they need assistance. The problem is that a lot of the non-profit groups that usually look after social issues and social concerns and homelessness are taxed as it is, and they don't have the people in place to sit down and do that work, or they don't have the money to pay somebody to do it. So I'm just wondering: what role does the NWT Housing Corporation play in homelessness? I'll use Hay River as an example, because we went through the winter just looking after ourselves. I've reached out to the Housing Corporation numerous times, so I'd just like to hear the comment from the Minister. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to elaborate that the homelessness issue throughout the Northwest Territories is quite significant, and I do identify it, and I see that the numbers are growing. We, as the Housing Corporation, do have several initiatives going forward and looking at how we deal with the homelessness issue throughout the territory. First of all, I would need to hear which areas are experiencing the homelessness and looking at the community plans that we are developing, and looking at the studies that we have developed going forward, that it feeds off it. It gives us that information of what clearly needs to be established. The Housing Corporation, you know, we could initiate in building the facilities, but then the other thing I'm concerned about is: who is going to carry over the program? Looking at the number of stocks that we do have in the community, we do have aging inventory, and they would be available if we were approached by organizations and communities that, if the communities wanted to take our old stock over.
One of the things that I want to elaborate on is we do have the Northern Pathways program; I'm going to emphasize that it has been established in Fort Simpson, Aklavik, Behchoko, and Fort Good Hope, and it does come with a wraparound service. So the clients who are actually in the facility have quick access to Income Support and addiction treatments, and whatever. We do hire somebody who effectively works with the clients. So, going forward, those community plans are very significant and very important because it really identifies the need in each of the regions. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. Earlier today, the Minister responsible for homelessness had mentioned that, under that portfolio, there are a couple of staff allocated to it, but there are no funds. Then I look at the housing, and the housing does have an assisted fund, there. Are they two separate things? How do you reconcile your duties as the Minister responsible for homelessness and the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. This is an area that we have had to slowly take responsibility for, which is fine, it's good, but, because we are the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation, we're looking at every avenue; home ownership, public housing, homelessness, and the need that is required in the North. So we have developed a number of programs where we would be able to address this issue. Earlier, I had said that we did not have money that was set aside, but we do have money that is sitting there. It's quite a confusing initiative for me to try to display and to try to speak of, but, going forward, during my term, I am wanting to construct a homeless shelter in each of the regions to deal with this issue and to try to elaborate on it a little bit more, that we'd be able to enhance the service that the Housing Corporation could participate in. Not only that, but to also lobby on behalf of the Housing Corporation that this is something that we need, that we require additional and more money to be working with this initiative throughout the territory. I hope that answers the Member's questions. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
That answers the question. The other thing is that I want to tell you right now, you wanted to hear it, Hay River needs a shelter, an emergency shelter for men during the winter. So you heard it from me, and I hear it from the people in town. So now you know, and hopefully we'll get somebody to approach you; we already did once, and hopefully we'll hear back. I just wanted to make that point.
The next thing here is, I guess, as Regular MLAs here, most issues we hear about have to deal with either housing or health. Those are the complaints we get. So, with the number of complaints, do you guys track the number of complaints that you get with respect to housing in all areas? If you do, can you give me an idea, a breakdown of what those complaints are? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. Those numbers are quite significant; they are huge. They could come from, you know, the concerns that are out there from maintenance issues to non-payment of rent. The numbers are quite large. Or else just not finding a place to stay. There are people who are couch-surfing. There are people who have just had children or they've been incarcerated, they're trying to return back to their community, or treatment centre, and they don't have the support returning back to their community. So looking at housing, it comes with such a significant dynamic; it's so large that, since I've held the portfolio, according to our stats and our questions, like, I'm right on top of there and I can see the drastic need for improvement; not improvement, more an enhancement of what we have and working with what we've got. I want to really emphasize, really put out there, that the community plans, the housing plans, this is what would identify for us and enable for us to start budgeting what each region is wanting to establish in their area. I hope I was able to answer your question. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. She, I guess, kind of answered the question, but I know where her office is, so I know how to get hold of her, and I can do that. Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Moving on, we will move on to the Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Marsi cho, Madam Chair. I'm just going to talk a little bit about homelessness, as well. I, too, in my riding, in Deninu Kue, we have a homelessness issue, and there is already infrastructure in place. I think we're already in discussion with the Minister on that, so hopefully we can see some progress on that. I'm just looking at page 370, here. I'm just looking at some trends, things like the Homelessness Assistance Fund staying put but items like the Small Community Homelessness Fund going down, the Shelter Enhancement Fund is going down. I'm just getting a sense of why that is the way it is. My question to the Minister is: is the intention here to rely on the co-investment fund to get some help from the feds? What is the intention here, and why are these line items trending the way they are? Mahsi cho.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am going to have Mr. Martin respond to this question. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Martin
Thank you, Madam Chair. With regard to the Shelter Enhancement Fund, Victims of Family Violence line item, we did have a fair amount of extra spending in 2018-2019 compared to the base budget of $100,000 for 2020-2021. The reason for that additional spending is the fact that the Housing Corporation, under budget 2016, secured additional funding through that budget, the federal budget, and was able to invest additional dollars into Victims of Family Violence shelters. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Marsi cho, Madam Chair, and thank you for that response. I had a loaded question, there, but I guess I'm going to ask it again. I'm going to ask the Minister again: is there an intention here to lean on the co-investment fund to kind of offset some of these decreases? Marsi cho.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. The co-investment fund is offered to the individuals and stakeholders, Indigenous governments, that are wanting to pursue housing initiatives, but I'm going to have Jim elaborate on this a little bit more; sorry, Mr. Martin, a little bit more. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Martin
Thank you, Madam Chair. Under the co-investment fund, there would certainly be opportunities working with our partners, Indigenous governments, and other partners to hopefully see some further investment in supporting homelessness, in all communities. So we certainly look forward to those opportunities, and we will continue to work with our partners in that regard. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Marsi cho, Madam Chair. I think I got a swing and a miss there. Okay. I am trying to ask this in another way, then. Those three items I mentioned earlier, they are decreasing. Does the Minister feel this will be enough to help some of the homelessness issues we are having in the small communities because I really feel like we are not addressing that?
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
We would have to continue looking for federal opportunities to increase these dollar amounts here. I just wanted to comment to the Member when he was asking about the co-investment fund. The co-investment fund is 75/25, so just as an example, it is offered out to the interested groups that are out there, not only just the Indigenous groups. We would work in partnership with them if we have the opportunity and if we were invited to be a part of the process and a part of their project. That is how that part would work. The co-investment fund doesn't go directly to the Housing Corporation. Thank you, Madam Chair. [Microphone turned off] ...I will have Mr. Carpenter elaborate on the answer. Thank you.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. I believe I understand where the Member is going. I think we are getting mixed up a bit in actuals versus what our budget it is. As you'll notice, our actuals overall were $2.4 million whereas we budget nearly $3 million. Our intent is to leave that $3 million. You'll see, in some cases, we actually overspend when we have some unforeseen issues going forward. The goal is to keep those budgets in place and address extra spending requirements as they arise. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Marsi cho, Madam Chair. I think I went down the rabbit hole. I am going to ask a little easier question here. Some of my constituents, in dealing with that, use Hope's Haven here in town. I just want to see here: does that fall under the emergency shelters? Does emergency shelters fund that? That is a question to the Minister.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. Can I get the Member to repeat his question? We fund what organization? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Yes. Thank you, Madam Chair. I will repeat that. Under the line item emergency shelters, does the Hope's Haven program here in Yellowknife access that program?
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. According to what we have, I don't see that we fund the Hope program for Yellowknife. I will follow up with the Member in case I might be incorrect. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a single question in regard to the Transitional Rent Supplement Program. Firstly, I recognize that this wasn't subscribed before, but previous Minister said that it was largely due to lack of advertising. I think when we have to constantly ask the Housing Corporation to put their policies on a website, let alone make an application available online, it's understandable that programs aren't subscribed to. My issue with this line item is that it is actually not correct because this program is sunsetting this fiscal and then we are going to have the Canada Housing Benefit come in. Obviously, if it is a different program, we will have some different qualifiers. I understand all people in this program will automatically be applied to the new one but not necessarily meet the qualifications of the new program. My concern is that I have a number of constituents on this. If they don't meet those new qualifiers, I don't like passing a line item and saying that this program is going to go ahead when it is not.
What I am looking for: is the Minister willing to commit that -- there is going to be that small portion of people who are on this program presently, maybe have a year of the two years left, don't meet the new program. Are we willing to continue to fund them until they have gone on to finish their two years? I really just don't want people who are expecting this program to continue to have their applications denied under the new one and then all of a sudden they have no rent supplement program. Are we willing to have those people who fall through the cracks finish their Transitional Rent Supplement Program?
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife North. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
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Paulie Chinna Sahtu
Thank you, Madam Chair. With this program sun-setting, I would like to work with the clients to make sure that they don't feel the significant changes of the transition into the new program. I will work with the Member as we identify these clients in making sure that they don't end up in a situation, but we will try our best to find the support to help them. I will have Mr. Carpenter elaborate on the comment. Thank you.
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Carpenter
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes. That is our hope is that current clients of the Transitional Rent Supplement Program move over to the Canada Housing Benefit. However, we have to set up the budget for the 2020-2021 year. I think I will probably go out on a limb a bit with the Minister that we are going to support them for at least that fiscal year if there are issues going onto the Canada Housing Benefit.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Mr. Carpenter. Any further questions? Member for Yellowknife North.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
I am happy to hear that. Yes. My understanding is that there will be a lot of program overlap, but there are going to be a few people who fall through the cracks. It just doesn't make sense to me to not fund them for the year and make the transition between programs smooth. I don't want to be asking questions on behalf of my constituents. For the few that didn't make it, let's fund them for the year and make this a smooth transition. Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife North. I will take that as a comment. Are there any further questions on the finance and infrastructure services? Seeing no further questions, please turn to page 369. NWT Housing Corporation, finance and infrastructure services, operations expenditure summary, 2020-2021 Main Estimates, $14,399,000. Does committee agree?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Madam Chair, I move that the chair rise and report progress. Marsi cho.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
There is a motion on the floor to report progress. The motion is in order and non-debatable. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.
---Carried
I will now rise and report progress. Sergeant-at-Arms, will you please escort the witnesses out of the Chamber?
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The Speaker Frederick Blake Jr.
May I have the report of the Committee of the Whole, Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes?