Madam Chair, your committee wishes to consider Tabled Document 813-19(2), 2023-2024 Main Estimates, Education, Culture and Employment. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Does committee agree?

Thank you, committee. We will proceed with the first item. Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, do you have witnesses?

Yes, I do.

Sergeant-at-arms, please escort the witnesses into the Chamber.

Minister, would you please introduce your witnesses.

Thank you. I have Mr. John MacDonald, the deputy minister of Education, Culture and Employment. As well as Mr. Mike Saturnino, the assistant deputy minister of labour and income security. Thank you.

Thank you. Welcome. Committee, we are going to be continuing on with Department of Education, Culture and Employment. And we are on the section labour development and advanced education, beginning on page 57 with information items on page 58 and 59. Are there questions from committee? Member for Kam Lake.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I am seeing a significant decrease in the top line item of advanced education and strategic initiatives. And I'm wondering if the Minister can speak to why we're seeing such a huge gap between the revised estimates for 2022-2023 and the main estimates for 2023-2024. Thank you.

Thank you. Minister of ECE.

Thank you. That represents an influx of cash that we received from the federal government as part of their contribution to the transformation of Aurora College into a polytechnic university, and it was not recorded in this year because we received it last year. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Kam Lake.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, given that the transformation of Aurora College into a polytechnic is far from anywhere near done, are we expecting additional influxes in cash flow from the federal government for the purposes of that work? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister of ECE.

Thank you. I sure hope so. We have been engaging extensively with the federal government. As I've stated, the Premier has spoken directly to the prime minister about the importance of this initiative and the need for federal support, and I've engaged with a number of my federal counterparts as well. So we are very hopeful. Thank you.

Member for Kam Lake.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I hope so as well because I've noted on the next page as well that the -- under contributions that it is marked as zero there and that's a big concern to me because that can be a very expensive venture.

Madam Chair, my next question is in regards to the apprenticeship and occupational certification. I'm wondering how many apprentices does this budget serve? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister of ECE.

Thank you. We are supporting about 300 apprentices right now. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Kam Lake.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Given that the goal is always to increase the number of apprentices and given that also Housing is taking on a bigger role in ensuring that apprentices are present on all of their contracts for their builds. There's also been asks in the House for apprentices to be included on more government contracts and for Infrastructure to look at also building that into their contracts, I'm wondering why this line item isn't increasing given the increase in demand and the different avenues that Members are asking for the government to increase the number of apprentices across the territory? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister of ECE.

Thank you. So we haven't been expending all of those funds and so what we've actually done, in the last fiscal year, was increase the amounts and increase the eligibility that -- increase the number of people who are eligible to receive funding. So we are taking steps to spend the money we have and if we need more money, you know, there's always opportunities to go back to the feds. So, again, these are great problems to have when we're running out of money to support apprentices and trades people. So if we get to that point then we will ensure that we have the funds to support them because it is -- you know, obviously it's a priority here in the Northwest Territories. We need trades people. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Kam Lake.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'm wondering how many apprentices can this budget support at $2.249 million?

Thank you. Minister.

I'll hand it to Mr. Saturnino. Thank you.

All right. Thank you. Mr. Saturnino.

Thank you. Member for Kam Lake.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'm wondering if the SNAP apprentices also come out of here?

Thank you. Mr. Saturnino.

Thank you. Member for Kam Lake.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I should get started at ten minutes, not seven; I was hoping you wouldn't notice that.

My next question is in regards to the wage subsidies for SNAP students and apprentices. Are the wage subsidies for SNAP and apprentice students the same? And there's also been talk of wanting to see SNAP students expanded into all the communities in the Northwest Territories. And is this budget built to actually support that type of increase in SNAP students across the territory, or is this budget actually built to support a certain number of SNAP students in the territory? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister of ECE.

Thank you. I'll hand it to Mr. Saturnino.

Mr. Saturnino.

Thank you. Member for Kam Lake.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I wanted to ask now about some funding that's been moved around, and I just was wondering if the Minister can help me understand it.

But the Labour Market Development Agreement has moved from fund one to fund three, and I'm unsure what this means and so I'm wondering if the Minister can explain this to me? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister of ECE.

Thank you. So the Office of the Auditor General, they look at, you know, our financials and they recommended that we make that adjustment. So we are moving that contribution from work performed on behalf of others to operations to more accurately reflect how it is used. So it's an accounting thing to make sure that we're more transparent and more clear. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Kam Lake.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I will pass the floor other to another colleague.

Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to go back to trades and occupations. Is that program, is it fully subscribed or is there still funds lapsing? Thank you.

Minister of ECE.

Thank you. It's not quite fully subscribed but it's not like there's no uptake at all. So we are getting close to the maximum there. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. And the Minister had mentioned that there was I think approximately 300 recipients of that program right now. Can the Minister tell me, I guess the success, like what's the retention, I guess, rate and seeing some of the apprentices get through and how many are we losing, and why? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister of ECE.

Thank you. I'll hand it to Mr. Saturnino.

Mr. Saturnino.

Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. You know, we hear, I guess, constantly from contractors that, you know, they have trouble hiring people with skills and more so trades people. Is there any special initiatives, I guess, that you're looking -- the government's looking at, the department's looking at, to encourage, I guess, more basic training and also trying to get more people into the trades? Thank you.

Thank you. So as part of the transformation of Aurora College, we are trying to expand access to training and education. A lot of those issues that the Members are talking about are, you know, issues that need to be addressed before someone really moves into the academic part of apprenticeships. As Mr. Saturnino mentioned, there are some new programs as well to help apprentices get the skills they need to make their way through the program. And from what I've heard directly from the people who have been engaged in those, they've been very, very valuable. So I encourage anyone who might be struggling to access those. Perhaps I can hand it to the deputy minister for some more detail. Thank you.

Thank you. Deputy minister MacDonald.

Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I know in the past, I guess I'm thinking about DJ, a school in Hay River, where I guess through the shop program they would -- you know, they built small tiny homes or houses. I guess they weren't really small but, you know, they might have been single-bedrooms. But is that something that -- I don't see it happening anymore so is that something that the schools may be looking at or something the department is encouraging schools to look at, you know, in a way to encourage students to take up trades as, you know, way of life I guess? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister of ECE.

Thank you. So that's a program that a school can run if it wishes to. They have that flexibility. One of the biggest barriers to programs like that are having teachers who also happen to be, say, journey persons. So they are in short demand; you know, skilled labour and skilled labour who are also teachers. It's a rare combination so that really is the biggest barrier. But if a school board has -- you know, they want to do that, they can do it if they can get the teaching resources. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, I was just looking at, you know -- you know, we got Building Skills 4 Success, we've got Skills Canada, we've got Small Community Employment Workforce Development Agreement. Like, is most -- is all that money being spent and how much is actually going -- or an approximate, I guess, amount actually going to businesses on the ground to support them in training and hiring apprentices, hiring, you know, labour? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister of ECE.

I'll hand it to Mr. Saturnino.

Thank you. Mr. Saturnino.

Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to go to career development and training. So can the Minister just, I guess, give me some background on that because, you know, like I've dealt with, I guess, a number of people who have, I guess, worked for me in the past and some of the things that, you know, that I found was that, you know, sometimes it worked out for somebody and sometimes it just wasn't the right place or the right type of job for them. Is that something this career development looks at? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister of ECE.

Thank you. I'll hand it to Mr. Saturnino.

Mr. Saturnino.

Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. One thing I find is that, you know, with career development offices and that, they got a lot of paperwork to do, a lot of administration to do, and I know before I used to get them out into the work site and give them an idea of what they were spending money on and what they were approving. Is that something that's being done more so now or encouraged? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister of ECE.

Yes, absolutely. And as I travel around the territory to the different regions, I speak to the career development officers and they talk about their on-the-ground engagement with industry and with Indigenous governments as well. Thank you.

Thank you. Anything further? Member for Hay River South.

Well, I'll just sit silent here for the next 27 seconds. That's all.

Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Can the Minister provide an update on when we anticipate the new board for Aurora College being instated? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister of ECE.

Thank you. I expect an announcement next week and all of the instruments to establish the board to all be completed this month. Thank you.

All right. Member for Yellowknife North.

Awesome, very happy to hear that stuff is being caught up. I was very excited to see the announcement of the return of the social work/teacher program as well as kind of some work for a general arts and science program. Do we have an estimated cost for reinstating those programs? Thank you.

Minister of ECE.

Thank you. Part of the work to transform the college is ensuring that there is a funding formula in place so that these types of programs are costed. Right now that isn't in place although there is a budget for the programs, and it's the same budget that has existed since the programs were in existence. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you. Do we know where on which of the three campuses each of those programs is planning to be located? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister of ECE.

Thank you, Madam Chair. So with a new board of governors in place, they will be making those types of decisions along with the college administration. So I know that Members have been accustomed to asking those questions of the Minister but with the change in relationship and with the establishment of the board, things are going to operate differently now. So I can't comment on future decisions of the board. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife North.

Yeah, thank you. I know right now the nursing program in Yellowknife is, you know, by most measures a success. I know many of the people who have taken that program or are taking it presently. But I believe there's some limitations on the space to expand that program, especially in the housing. I've heard from people that, you know, didn't get into that program -- or chose not to take that program because they couldn't get student housing. So, you know, even in the world where Yellowknife gets another program, I'm not convinced its current space requirements will allow that, especially on the housing front. Before we give all of the decisions to this board, are there any plans to kind of increase the space needs in Yellowknife? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister of ECE.

Thank you. So this House did pass the amendments to the Aurora College Act, so that decision has been made. So we're past the before part. But as the Member's aware, we have a facilities master plan that sets out, you know, potential infrastructure investments and the college and the government are well aware of the space limitations, and along with the residents in Fort Smith, addressing those limitations are the top priorities for new infrastructure for the college. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to switch gears a bit on the trades front. What I've been seeing lately is a lot of great announcements coming out of the federal government and directly to Indigenous governments. You know, I think we saw the Tlicho get, I believe, it was 30 apprentices paid for. I know Fort Good Hope has some federal funding to build a trades centre, which is all great work. There's other examples going on. I'm just hoping the Minister can speak to the extent we are kind of aware of that tracking it or offering partnership. I think, you know, the Fort Good Hope, for example we -- committee met with them, and it seems clear they will need some sort of apprentice building support and perhaps we have to tailor our programs to build that cooperation. I'm just wondering if the Minister can speak to whether we're kind of aware of this and reaching out as more and more of that federal money goes directly to Indigenous governments. Thank you.

Thank you. Minister of ECE.

Thank you. So we have, as I stated earlier, career development officers in the different regions of the Northwest Territories, and they are attuned to what is happening in their regions. There are often if not formalized relationships at least informal relationships among the different organizations, so Indigenous governments, ECE, businesses. And so I can say that, yes, the department is aware and always open to working whichever way works best for everyone involved. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I wanted to just talk a little bit -- actually a lot of my colleagues have asked some of my questions already, and I appreciate the information. But I always have to get a plug in for Skills Canada. Their funding has stayed fairly stagnant over the last while. And, really, for my own personal history and experience with the program, it's a really, really good program. We do well at it, I think, and as far as the competition piece when we send people. I'm sure there's other pots of funding; however, during the pandemic, it was very difficult for them to sort of continue on and there was a discussion around sort of pivoting to more virtual types of sort of trade programs or training. And so I'm just curious to know, like to me, I think this is a great place where with we can invest a lot of money. It's a lot of young people. So I think the youth gravitate more towards it than maybe some of the other types of funding or programs we have.

So can the Minister speak about whether or not we're going to fund Skills Canada NWT a bit more, how are we going to transition or help them transition to a more -- or an ability to be more virtual and reach more community members? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister of ECE.

Thank you. And so we do have the $70,000 in here. On the line item, there's another $85,000 the department contributes out of the Labour Market Development Agreement. Perhaps I can hand it to the deputy minister for some more succinct comments on the Member's question. Thank you.

Deputy minister MacDonald.

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

Thank you, Madam Chair. And, you know, I understand that the federal government has its own sort of relationships with different organizations but as the Minister's aware, and I've recently become aware, you know, with the way that the federal government awards its funding at times there's often a lag in that funding, or if they decide to delay the announcement, and with so many of our NGOs operating on very shoestring budgets and, you know, sort of I want to -- where residents are living paycheque to paycheque but NGOs are living project funding to project funding, and it's not sustainable; we talk about it a lot. So is there a plan in place then or I guess is there a review maybe going on of some of these NGOs that are offering the programming for the department, or we're funding, to see and ensure that they have financial stability in planning so that they're not dependent on every month or every couple months waiting for a big project to get announced that has very specific ways of dictating how it's spent? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister of ECE.

Thank you. And we're always happy to move to multiyear funding agreements whenever we can. I understand the Member's concerns. I know that NGOs don't have the bridge funding that governments have. The federal funding received by Skills Canada is a little less volatile than some of the other pots, but I'm sure there are instances where they run into issues. We're always happy to meet with Skills Canada if they -- you know, if they have a proposal, if they want to request more funds, I mean we can have those discussions, so I'm definitely always open to that. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

Thank you. And I play soccer so if I ever get back to that with one of the people that work there, I will let them know that they should maybe schedule a meeting with the Minister and have a chat.

You know, I look at some of these line items and I recognize that there's been some influx of money, as mentioned to my colleague, for the Aurora College; however, given that we had the recent conversation with Giant Mine and the different proponents, I won't rehash all of that but, you know, I think this is an area where it's a good place again to get money, training, skills, and capacity into the communities outside of Yellowknife. And so I guess I just want to ask the Minister are we going to -- to me, this seems like an area we need some significant investments in. And is there a plan to start bringing more money here and really developing some of these programs instead of having them just be these little, sort of one-offs that offer a training course here and there? Thank you.