Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I find it ironic that we are asked to waive a fee or remit a fee prescribed under this particular act and we are not being told what the current fee is. What are we actually waiving? Thank you.

Mr. Minister.

Does this committee agree?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Thank you. Proceed, Mr. Minister. Sergeant-at-arms, proceed by the officials, please.

Mr. Minister, would you introduce your witnesses, please?

Thank you. There was a question on the floor. Would you please respond to it, Mr. Minister?

Mr. Chairman, my understanding is that the question is what the current fees are that we would be waiving. On any particular estate, our fees range upwards of approximately five per cent of the total value of the estate. However, there may be a number of other things that we do on the estate which takes the value of the work well above five per cent. There may be legal actions which may need to be started. There may be income tax returns. There may be all sorts of associated disbursements involved in the handling of the estate. Where it appears that the fees are starting to get too high compared to the actual value of the estate, for example, if we have an estate worth $4,500 and a proper calculation worked out to $1,500, that would seem to be an excessive amount, we would waive or reduce the fees in that particular case, especially if the money was going to a needy beneficiary or someone who did not have much money.

Thank you. Member for Thebacha.

Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister can indicate to this House what he would deem to be the definition of hardship or unfairness in the circumstances of waiving a fee for an estate?

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

One example of that would be where you have an elderly widow, and the total value of the estate might be $3,000 but she hardly has any other money. If the fees worked out to $300, and that is probably a considerable amount to her, and if we saw that she did not have any other source of funds, then we could waive the fee in that case and give her the total value of the estate.

Thank you. Member for Thebacha.

Mr. Chairman, it has been indicated to us that the fee is five per cent of the total value plus, at times, the value of the work well above the requirements of what is needed for the estate to be completed. This bill is to waive that fee prescribed. Do we have many estates which the government deals with that would require a waiving of the amounts prescribed by the results of completing estates?

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

We have a fair number of estates for which the primary beneficiary is an elderly person who does not have much money. As far as the total percentage of the actual estates we handle, it may go upwards of 25, 30 or 40 per cent of the number of estates where that money would be paid to the surviving spouse who may be quite elderly. Under other circumstances, the funds would generally be paid to the children, since very often it is the parent whose spouse has already died. There would be a fair number for which we could reduce or waive the fees down to zero.

Thank you. Member for Thebacha.

Mr. Chairman, it has been indicated to us that, with regard to this five per cent of the total value of estates, consideration of work well above the five per cent often comes into the financial amount of settling that estate. When they are looking at additional lawyer's fees or accountant's fees to complete revenue forms, what and how do they impose that

particular fee? Is it on the going rate of lawyer's fees? Do they use lawyers who are out of government?

Thank you. Mr. Pontus.

We do not have an actual hourly rate set for my services. I am the only one who functions as a lawyer in the office. It would probably work out to no more than $60 or $70 per hour in the average case which is probably what would be charged out by an articling student at a local firm. It is considerably less than the private sector for the same services. When we have a situation in which the estate does have sufficient funds and there are legal problems, then I can retain and will retain a private lawyer to act on behalf of the estate, and who will be paid from the estate or the funds received as a result of the litigation. He will not be paid by the government in those cases.

Thank you. Member for Thebacha.

Mr. Chairman, can this House be advised as to the number of estates on an average rate per year that this particular department completes?

Mr. Pontus.