Item 5, oral questions. Item 6, written questions. Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have two written questions for the Minister of Renewable Resources. Will the Minister prepare and table, in the Legislative Assembly, a summary of results of all Indian and Northern Affairs assessments of abandoned D.E.W. Line sites undertaken during the summer of 1992?

My second written question, Mr. Speaker, if I may proceed? My second written question is also for the Minister of Renewable Resources. Will the Minister indicate the electoral constituency in which each of the following D.E.W. Line sites are located: a) Pierce Point; b) Horton River; c) Atkinson Point; d) Bernard Harbour; and e) Mathison Point? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Item 6, written questions. Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My written question is to the Minister of Economic Development and Tourism. Under the terms of the National Farm Products marketing sham, what are the liabilities of this government? I am sorry, this is to the Minister of Justice. What are the liabilities of this government for penalties arising out of successful court actions taken by the Canadian Egg Marketing Agency, C.E.M.A., for the illegal export of eggs by Northwest Territories producers to which the Government of the Northwest Territories has made contribution payments, and governments obligation to advise C.E.M.A. of export violation?

Written question to the Minister of Justice, under the laws of Canada, its provinces or territories, is this government obliged to report instances of illegal exporting of eggs with the Canadian Egg Marketing Association, or other agencies?

Item 6, written questions. Item 7, returns to written questions. Mr. Clerk.

Mr. Speaker, return to question 48-12(2), asked by Mrs. Marie-Jewell, replied to by the Minister of Justice concerning the court administration costs.

Item 8, replies to opening address. Item 9, replies to budget address. Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am very pleased to be able to rise and give my reply to the budget address this afternoon. I say that because I believe the current budget carries several important implications for the people and the communities of the Northwest Territories.

Over the past several months, I have been privileged to serve as a member of the Standing Committee on Finance, and to participate in the preparation of that committee's report. I wish to say that I strongly support the position taken by the standing committee, but today I also wish to raise some additional points that I bring forward, not as a committee Member, but rather as the Member for Baffin Central.

I will begin by speaking about an issue that I think has had significant influence on the development of this government's fiscal policy, particularly, in the area of economic development and tourism.

Mr. Speaker, that issue has to do with the distribution of portfolio assignments within our current Cabinet. Although, I was generally pleased with direction taken by the Government Leader in her Cabinet reorganization, I continue to have concerns about the fact that a single Minister has shared responsibility for the Department of Finance, and the Department of Economic Development and Tourism.

Mr. Speaker, I believe that the philosophies underline the tasks of those departments, do conflict with each other. Right from the start of the 12th Assembly, this House has been told that the government has entered a time of restraint. This was again emphasized in the opening address for this session, and now in the budget address for 1991-92.

The appropriate lead department in developing strategies to address restraint is the Department of Finance. Its key function, at this point in time, is to ensure that the necessary controls and planning are in place to turn around the excess of previous years. At this time, in our history, Mr. Speaker, it is concerned with reduction.

On the other hand, the Ministers other department is concerned with development of economic system and products. It is concerned with growth. The Department of Finance, Mr. Speaker, is geared towards centralized function.

It requires intensive attention to headquarters operation in Yellowknife, and it is a top down at administration.

On the other hand, the Department of Economic Development and Tourism simply cannot use the same top down approach. It must listen to, and work with grassroots ideas that are generated within the regions. The Department of Finance requires the Minister's attention to be focused on Yellowknife operations. The Department of Economic Development makes him put his priority in the regions.

These roles conflict, and I believe would compromise decision making in the office of any Minister with these two portfolios. What I wish to stress here, is not with the honourable Member for Hay River, but rather with the Government Leader's decision to assign these two departments to the same Minister.

Finally, Mr. Speaker, I would note that the ministerial workload for both these portfolios is overwhelming, as I am sure you remember from your time as the Minister of Finance. I am concerned that the heavy time pressures involved in heading these two departments are causing important work to be overlooked in each of them.

The Department of Finance for instance, has been unable to bring forward an assessment of the impact of the past years expenditure management program, which restraint government hiring and contracting.

Similarly, I wonder what is the status of the Public Accounts Committee's June recommendation of the role of Comptroller General be reviewed? Certainly there have been no ministerial announcements, or statements, as to whether this important initiative is being acted on.

On the economic development side, I am concerned about whether our current Minister has been able to spend time building the government corporations and agencies established during the 11th Assembly. There are concerns about the lack of direction within the N.W.T. Development Corporation and as far as I understand, there are still no regional boards for the credit corporation.

In response to question from my honourable colleague from Deh Cho last week, we learned that agricultural marketing agencies, that were seen as a priority at the end of the 11th Assembly, still have not been established.

As honourable Members know, I have been concerned with several aspects of our northern fisheries, including scope and administration of the contract with Co-Pro Ltd. of Ottawa, federal/territorial consultation on the issuance of fishing licences, and priority setting from the exploratory fishery.

I understand that concerns about fisheries are not confined to Baffin region. I am concerned that some elements of the Great Slave commercial fishing community have commented on the lack of governmental leadership in dealing with the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation, and as my honourable colleague from Natilikmiot pointed out on Friday, the department seems to have lost contact with small businesses in Kitikmeot.

Mr. Speaker, I would again repeat that I am not blaming the honourable Minister. I know that he is a talented and hard working Member of this House, however, the challenge of combining these two busy and competing departments is more than any single Minister should be expected to take responsibility for.

It is my position that the Government Leader should reassign the portfolios of the current Minister, so that role and time conflicts are minimized. I will be raising this matter on other occasions over the course of the current session.

Mr. Speaker, I would also like to make some comments on specific parts of the budget, which the Minister of Finance brought forward last Thursday.

Honourable Members, will know, for instance, that the problem of domestic violence has been with us for many years. It will continue to remain with us unless we do something about it. Although some progress has been made in terms of crisis shelter for women and their children, I find it astounding that there is so little money spent on treating the offender. There is an almost total absence of effective, culturally appropriate treatment for batterers or sexual offenders, both in our correctional facilities or in the community setting.

Now that corrections has become the responsibility of the Department of Justice, we must be mindful that this need for services does not fall between the cracks.

Mr. Speaker, there is also a need to improve support services to victims of family violence or sexual assault. The Minister of Social Services should be aware that apart from some crisis services, there is very little that is available for victims in our smaller communities. What the Minister has to realize is that the stress which victims experience, as they go through, is not a short term issue. It is not an individual issue, either. This has an impact of the family members, and others in the community, who are thrust into the helping role. It is a heavy burden to carry, Mr. Speaker, and there is very little support from the department in terms of funded programming to assist in this area. We need additional resources, both funding and expertise, to be directed toward these community needs.

Mr. Speaker, there is another area in which we need additional professional resourcing, at least in the Baffin, I would expect that this is true throughout the territories, and that is in the area of dental services. I hope the Minister of Health will carefully consider the fact that families are presently having to pay their own way to Iqaluit from locations throughout the Baffin in order to have their children's teeth looked at by a qualified dentist.

The visitation schedule that has been set for the dental team is simply inadequate to meet the community needs. Our children have other needs, Mr. Speaker. I will not speak extensively on the education system at the present time, but honourable Members should know that, like many others, I am concerned that our present approach is not entirely sufficient.

One idea that I would like see the Minister consider, is an increased approach to supporting student exchange programming. I do not mean north-south exchanges, Mr. Speaker, but rather an exchange of students between our northern communities. As the Minister knows, there is a wealth of knowledge to be gained from experiencing how others in the Northwest Territories live.

It seems as though the department is not paying enough attention to this. I will never forget the time I spent as a resident of Lutsel K'e, it was Snowdrift at the time, Mr. Morin's constituency. I had a chance to experience, first-hand, the differences and similarities which exist between the Inuit communities, where I grew up, and the Dene communities that have continued to survive throughout history.

I learned what it was like to accompany Chipewyan families on the land, and to discover the northerners who share the same concern about the animals and the environment which surround us. Sometimes I think that discussions about the constitutional future of the north, and especially of the division of the Northwest Territories, would be much easier if only we had all shared that experience. I will be encouraging the Minister to carefully consider the benefit of this new idea.

While I am on the topic of hunting and trapping, Mr. Speaker, I need to call on our Minister of Renewable Resources to undertake a needs assessment of the organizational and financial support currently provided to H.T.A.s across the Northwest Territories. Presently the ability of the Hunters' and Trappers' Associations to take on the tasks which have to be undertaken, and this in spite of the fact that an increasing amount of the Association's time and effort have to be directed toward the completion of government surveys input on legislative, regulatory initiatives, and participation in planning activities. If the government is seriously interested in receiving community input from these H.T.A.'s, it will ensure that they have adequate resources to carry out the work.

Finally, Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a few brief comments about two of my pet economic development considerations. First, most honourable Members have already heard about some of my concerns with regard to fisheries development in the Baffin region. To summarize, the priority areas I would like the government to act quickly on, is providing a larger and more suitable fish plant and docking facility for the existing fishery in Pangnirtung. A strategic plan for the aggressive marketing of fish and other products. A strategy for building markets, and a distribution network for the incidental catch which consists mainly of large Greenland sharks, because it is wrong to see it left rotting and wasted on the sea ice.

My second pet project for economic development, has to do with the issue of import substitution, about which my honourable colleague from Keewatin Central spoke so clearly at our last sitting. The Department of Economic Development should be working now to promote greater inter-community trade throughout the Northwest Territories. This is one of the important recommendations made almost three years ago in the S.C.O.N.E. report, but it has not been acted on, by either the former, or the current Minister. In an earlier speech to this House, I commented that there is no reason why the firm in Fort McPherson should not be allowed to provide all canvas products for government use across the Northwest Territories.

Muskox meat, turbot and even some agricultural products, could be provided to residential schools and institutions throughout the territories by northern-owned and northern-operated producers. The Minister of Economic Development needs to devote more attention to the issues of import substitution. Mr. Speaker, these are only some of the matters that I wanted to raise relative to the budget before us. I am sure that we will have an opportunity to discuss them fully as we proceed through the appropriation debate. I look forward to addressing these on behalf of my constituents in the days to come. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Item 9, replies to budget address. Item 10, petitions. Item 11, reports of standing and special committees. Mr. Todd.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am pleased to give the Report of the Standing Committee on Finance on the 1992-93 main estimates. In our report on the 1992-93 capital estimates, the Standing Committee of Finance stated that there was a need for a fundamental change, in the way in which government does business in the North. The Standing Committee feels that the status quo is no longer acceptable, it simply does not work.

On balance, the changes proposed in the 1992-93 main estimates, represents a move towards this direction. Proposals for reshaping government, eliminating departments and unnecessary levels of bureaucracy, and devolving programs and services to the community level hold some promise. The standing committee will continue to offer constructive criticism and, hopefully, some possible solutions to the Cabinet to help guide them along the path to better and more effective government.

The Standing Committee on Finance met with the Minister of Finance, and the government's departments, in July and August, to discuss a number of concerns that we have noted in our report. We trust that Cabinet noted our concerns during the sometimes lively discussions, and are prepared for a full and frank discussion during this session.

During our departmental reviews, we were pleased that the majority of the information we requested, was forwarded in a timely manner. However, Members noted that some of the more experienced Ministers were unable to answer some of our most basic questions about their budgets. In other words, Mr. Speaker, they were ill prepared. The committee will expect that all Ministers are fully prepared to answer our questions during future reviews.

The committee recognizes that this review will have minimal impact on the current budget given the unique timing of the process this year. By the time the Assembly has completed the review of this budget in committee of the whole, we will be a full six months into the current fiscal year. However, we expect that our concerns and recommendations will be incorporated into the Operations and Maintenance budget for 1993-94.

Reshaping Northern Government

On major issues, the standing committee identified several issues, and they are as follows. On reshaping northern government, reshaping northern government is moving forward. However, the committee is concerned that the government is not managing the change very well. Activity is happening at the centre, but we have not seen much evidence that it is trickling down to the people who are most affected by this fundamental change.

When is consultation with community, and regional leaders going to occur? The committee feels that this should be one of the priorities of the reshaping project. It cannot simply be an academic exercise, if consultation does not take place with the people most familiar, and most affected, by the government programs and services, we feel that the project will prove to be costly and a time-consuming failure.

Growing Cost Of The Civil Service

On the growing costs of the civil service. The government pays almost $350 million annually to pay for the civil service, a full one-third of the Operations and Maintenance Budget. While we search for ways to make reductions in this budget, the overall cost of the civil service, the "deliverers", continues to increase. In reality, the cost of the civil service cannot continue to increase, or soon there will be nothing left to deliver.

The previous Assembly approved a motion to control government expenditures, by reducing total person years by five percent within two years. During our review, we did not find a significant reduction. The government's response was that organizational change may yield person year reductions. This is little comfort to the unemployed, the uneducated, and the people without houses.

If we need money for programs, and we clearly do, this government must come to grips with the cost of running the civil service. The committee feels that it is time for the government, and the various unions, to sit down and design a "made-in-the-north" pay and benefits package for all our employees. We can no longer rely on an antiquated system that was designed at a time when the north was considered but a mere outpost by the rest of Canada. On support to local bodies, at a time when we are looking for innovative ways to decentralize government, we are concerned with the cuts to local and regional bodies. What we are supposed to be doing is preparing local governments for the evolution, we are also cutting duty travel, and training funds in the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs. Surely this will have an adverse affect on the support that we can give these communities, if we are going to devolve, and decentralize more responsibility. Clearly, there is something fundamentally wrong with this strategy. If it is allowed to persist, this government will stand fairly accused of off-loading programs to the communities, without providing sufficient training and funding for them to do the job properly. We must look at enhancing training and support to the communities, so they have the ability to take over responsibility for programs, and services as they are devolved to them.

Social Issues

On the social issues, the standing committee is concerned about some of the cuts, and funding deficiencies that we have seen within the Department of Social Services. As we have stated many times, we will not support any reduction that will adversely affect those most in need. The committee recognizes that some of the social programs will be phased out, and are directly related to problems in society, higher levels of unemployment, overcrowding, housing shortages, and low educational levels. However, in trying to solve these problems, we cannot continue to underfund social services. We must ask ourselves, what would be the human and financial costs if we do not do anything? For example, in the budget, it is the committee's feeling that we must put more money into programs for suicide and A.I.D.S. prevention, yet, we cut a suicide position. The committee sometimes feels that we are so busy putting our fingers in the dike, there is no time left for resources to enact some kind of preventative measures to assist the people in the north. In addition, we must also provide adequate after-care treatment programs for those people caught within the vicious circle of social problems that we see in the north. If we do not pay today, you can be sure we will pay much more in the future. The community is equally concerned with the growing trend to underfund programs delivered by other people, for example, alcohol and drug workers, and workers with the aged and handicapped, who are grossly underpaid in comparison with the civil service. Wages for these essential workers must be brought into line immediately, before more dedicated people are lost at the community level. The committee will expect the government to show us that they are going to address these problems when we review the 1993-94 Operation and Maintenance Budget in January. On hire north, the committee remains concerned about the insufficient number of northerners and affirmative action candidates in the public service, particularly, in senior positions. We note that the Assembly passed the motion during the summer sitting, that directed the government to take immediate action to tackle this problem. It must become the exception to look south to fill jobs in the north. We must find new and creative approaches to fill our public service positions with northerners. This is but one way that we can begin to solve some of the serious social and economic problems, as we head into the next century.

Measuring Output And Effect

On measuring output and effect, the standing committee noted, during our review of 1992-93 Capital Estimates, that we must plan a way to quantify what the permits will accomplish with the money we are spending on programs and services. We have already stated that we will not recommend approval of programs that do not, or cannot, show they work. During our review of the budget, we noted time and time again, that Minister's could not give us the simple information. This is unacceptable. For example, in the Department of Economic Development and Tourism, and its Arts and Crafts Program, it could not relate program activity to the sales pool, or other output measures. In other words, we are spending money. What are we getting back for it? This remains a serious concern of the Standing Committee on Finance, one which we will be giving serious consideration to, during future reviews. If the government does not set measurable goals for future budgets, the committee will be left with no alternative, but to set them for them.

Committee Initiatives

On committee initiatives, as we have noted on a number of

occasions, this committee feels that our role is not just to review and advise, but to offer practical solutions to some of the financial difficulties that we face. After all, we are all in this together. To this end, the committee has taken several initiatives to create, or explore, creative ways to raise investment capital and stimulate the economy. We are currently working on attracting offshore investment to build badly needed public housing. Mr. Antoine, my colleague, is looking at the establishment of a heritage investment fund, so we can have resource revenues for reinvestment, and to target sectors of the economy. Mr. Dent is looking at a large one-time investment of capital dollars to build infrastructure, and we are also looking at innovative ways to increase tourism and revenues by legalizing some forms of gambling in the north.

Value For Money Audit Program

On value for money audit program to assist the Assembly in holding department's accountable, would acquire a better system of cheques and balances in the financial area. A second opinion on how we do things. To accomplish this, we will be presenting a plan for the Auditor General to perform value for money audits in key areas, during the life of the Assembly.

Conclusion

In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, the Standing Committee on Finance recognizes that the government has put much effort into this budget, and has tried to respond positively to our recommendations. However, the committee remains concerned that the government does not have a clear set of priorities. Something is simply not right, when we put resources into needless capital projects such as Expo, and the development of library legislation, but squeeze essential programs that attempt to deal with the crippling social programs we have got, like suicide, and alcohol and drug abuse. Although, we have been told many times that we will be seeing an overall new approach to government, the committee feels that the departments still have tunnel vision when it comes to the budget. Each department vying for their piece of the pie. The committee feels that the government needs an integrated, cooperative approach to dealing with those problems. Then, and only then, can we begin to deal with some of these problems.

The committee has expanded upon its concerns, and the departmental reviews reform the support, along with its 97 recommendations. We expect that the government will respond in time for a review of the 1993 Main and Capital Estimates.

Finally, as Members are aware, the standing committee is trying to meet outside of Yellowknife, whenever possible. We believe it is important that Members of the committee receive a fresh perspective from the people that we serve. Sometimes we seem to forget that. Something that is not always possible when we meet here in Yellowknife. During our review of our current budget, the committee travelled to Fort Simpson for three days of meetings. During our visit, we were able to meet with the Village Council of Fort Simpson, and in addition, on our return, we visited Nahanni Butte, and met with members of the band council in that community. Both these meetings proved very informative. The committee would like to thank the people of Fort Simpson, Nahanni Butte, and the honourable Member for Nahendeh, for the generous hospitality during our visit.

Mr. Speaker, that concludes the standing committee's report on finance, I would therefore move, seconded by the honourable Member from Inuvik, that the Report of the Standing Committee on Finance is moved into committee of the whole for consideration. Thank you.

---Applause

Motion is in Order. All those in favour? All those opposed? Mr. Todd's motion is carried.

---Carried

Item 11, reports of standing and special committees. Item 12, reports of committees on the review of bills. Mr. Todd.

Mr. Speaker, I wish to report to the Assembly that the Standing Committee on Finance has reviewed Bill 9, an Act to Amend the Insurance Act, and wishes to report that the bill is now ready for committee of the whole.

Thank you, Mr. Todd. Pursuant to rule 66-3, Bill 9 is ordered into committee of the whole.

Item 12, reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 13, tabling of documents. Mr. Bernhardt.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to table the following document, tabled document 84-12(2), a listing of graduates from various Northwest Territories communities over the past five year period. This document was prepared by the Department of Education. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you Mr. Bernhardt. Item 13, tabling of documents. Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to table two documents. The first, tabled document 85-12(2), is a discussion paper prepared in September 19, 1991 by the Minister of Justice for Canada, entitled "Aboriginal People and the Justice Administration." The second document, tabled document 86-12(2), is an extract from the Hansard of the House of Commons on Wednesday, April 8, 1992, regarding comments made in question period regarding the appointment of Don Avison, as Director General for the federal Council for Aboriginal and Justice Administration. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Item 13, tabling of documents. Ms. Cournoyea.

Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the following document, tabled document 87-12(2), "The Annual Report of the Status of Women's Council of the Northwest Territories for the year ending March 31, 1992."

Item 13, tabling of documents. Item 14, notices of motion. Mr. Todd.

Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on Wednesday, September 16, I will move the following motion: I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Inuvik, that this Legislative Assembly direct the Executive Council of the Northwest Territories, the Government of the Northwest Territories, to formally request of the Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs that a comprehensive audit of the Northwest Territories Power Corporation be undertaken pursuant to section 11 of the Auditor General Act; and further request that the Speaker communicate this resolution to the Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs and the Auditor General of Canada.