Members Present
Hon. Titus Allooloo, Mr. Antoine, Mr. Arngna'naaq, Hon. James Arvaluk, Hon. Michael Ballantyne, Mr. Bernhardt, Hon. Nellie Cournoyea, Mr. Dent, Mr. Gargan, Hon. Stephen Kakfwi, Mr. Koe, Mr. Lewis, Mrs. Marie-Jewell, Hon. Don Morin, Mr. Nerysoo, Mr. Ningark, Hon. Dennis Patterson, Hon. John Pollard, Mr. Pudlat, Mr. Pudluk, Mr. Todd, Hon. Tony Whitford, Mr. Zoe
---Prayer
Item 1: Prayer
Item 1: Prayer
Page 915
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Okay, we think we have the difficulties resolved. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Mr. Morin.
Minister's Statement 86-12(2): Phone Service To Small Communities
Item 2: Ministers' Statements
Page 915
Don Morin Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to give a progress report on the improved telephone service to small communities. This was a matter raised earlier this year by Mr. Zoe, Mr. Antoine, and Mr. Gargan.
Seven communities in the Northwest Territories have very limited telephone services. Five of these are on NorthwesTel's schedule for an upgrade. Snare Lake is scheduled first, in 1993, and the last is Colville Lake, scheduled in 1997.
I have exchanged letters with the president of NorthwesTel and met with him. We agreed to set up a working committee. They will assemble data on the requirements for each community. Then the most appropriate method of funding can be determined so that the planned provision of improved services can be accelerated. The recommendations of the committee will be ready in early October. I will keep the concerned Members informed of the progress made. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Minister's Statement 86-12(2): Phone Service To Small Communities
Item 2: Ministers' Statements
Page 915
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Item 2, Ministers' statements. Mr. Kakfwi.
Minister's Statement 87-12(2): Northern Hire
Item 2: Ministers' Statements
Page 915
Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
Mr. Speaker, a motion was passed in June recommending that a "Hire North" policy be developed to ensure the hiring of northern residents to the public service takes place. Members asked that the Minister of Personnel to give a status report on this matter at the September session.
Since that time, I have had the opportunity to consult with the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment Programs and would like to make the following remarks.
The hiring of northerners has always been, and continues to be, a priority of this government. That is why we have the Affirmative Action Policy. The policy is constitutionally sound, and provides us with the tools we need to make sure that aboriginal people, long term northerners, women, and the disabled get every opportunity for a first chance at jobs in the public service.
Many of our achievements, however, are overshadowed by publicity given to other events. In the absence of a public document to explain the government's policy and approach to northern hire, the impression is left that there is no strategy. That is not the case.
As a result, I welcome the opportunity to speak on this matter.
Mr. Speaker, the objective of hiring northerners applies to more than just government. It involves all sectors of our economy, government, boards and agencies, and private enterprise. Maybe more so in private enterprise. Everyone who writes a pay cheque should be doing whatever they can to make sure our workforce is gainfully employed.
We have a lot of talent out there. Unfortunately, many of the unemployed are inexperienced. They require skills upgrading and training. In addition, many of those who are employed require additional training to enter management level positions. There is work to be done and we are prepared to take any steps designed to increase job opportunities, and the hiring of northern residents.
The government also knows that not everyone wants to be a civil servant. Investment and partnerships with private enterprise will also make it possible for people to enter the workforce and, in the long run, help to reduce the cost factors involved in employee turnover and the hiring of southern expertise.
Mr. Speaker, the government's employment strategy began in 1976 with the establishment of the Office of Native Employment to promote aboriginal employment in the public service. At that time, there were only 650 aboriginal public servants who made up 22 percent of the total employee population.
In 1985, when the Native Employment Policy was introduced, the figures had increased to 1,136 aboriginal employees or 29.8 percent.
Four years later, we came to grips with the fact that many other northerners were disadvantaged, and the Native Employment Policy was expanded into the broader based Affirmative Action Policy that is in effect today.
As a result of these policy initiatives, we now have 1,902 aboriginal employees who make up 35 percent of the government workforce of 5,406.
Mr. Speaker, a total of 1,451 appointments were made last year and of that total, 1,082 employees, or 74.5 percent, were hired in the north.
However, this is only part of the picture.
The government provides contributions to a variety of operations, boards and agencies who employ their own staff. The majority of these staff members are northern and aboriginal people and although they are not public servants, the government funding does make a significant contribution to northern hire.
The Department of Transportation, for example, funds about 367 jobs through its ferry, highway maintenance, and airports operations. At least 200, or 54 percent, of these employees are aboriginal people. The N.W.T. Housing Corporation funds housing associations and authorities who employ 360 people, of whom 284 are aboriginal, making up 84 percent of the total.
The Dogrib Tribal Council and the Northwest Territories Power Corporation on the other hand, are working together on development of hydro plants in the Fort Rae/Lac La Martre area. This type of joint venturing means jobs. Jobs mean money and money results in increased business opportunities.
In addition, the government's business incentive policy gives preference to northern businesses and contractors, who in turn draw from the territorial labour pool to get their jobs done.
Mr. Speaker, our highest priority continues to be increasing the representation of aboriginal northerners in the public service. However, figures from the 1989 labour force survey show that there is no simple solution.
There are about 18,390 aboriginal people between the ages of 15 to 64. Only 7,610 of them were employed at the time of the survey. Of the remaining 10,780, more than 8,600, or 80 per cent, of the total had less than grade nine.
Those who stand the best chance of employment are the 2,133 unemployed who have a grade ten or higher education. However, over one third of these residents are unable to work due to disability, caring for children, or attending school. The number is further reduced by those who are unwilling, or unable, to relocate to another community to work. Many of these would also require upgrading to meet the requirements of many jobs.
Mr. Speaker, those are the statistics. Skill shortages within the northern workforce means we must continue to hire for some positions outside of the Northwest Territories until northerners take full advantage of our education and training systems. This is unavoidable in the short to medium term.
The government's strategy for maximizing the skills of the northern workforce includes a number of elements. The first priority is expanding the skills based with projects such as Arctic college's government oriented training programs. For instance:
- Academic upgrading programs with 731 full-time and 1,666 part-time students; and
The social services worker program with 39 full-time and 78 part-time such as Arctic College's government orientated training programs. For instance:
- Academic upgrading programs with 731 full-time, and 1,666 part-time students;
- Social service worker program, with 39 full-time and 78 part- time students;
- The teacher education program, with 76 full-time, and 168 part-time students;
- The renewable resources and environmental technological programs, with 40 full-time, and four part-time students;
- The management studies program with 98 full-time and 391 part-time students; and
- A variety of other programs such as nursing assistants, community health representatives and interpreter/translators.
In addition our strategy includes:
- Encouraging parents to do all they can to keep their children in school and motivate them towards higher education;
- Encouraging individuals to take on more responsibility themselves; and
- A stay in school campaign to encourage youngsters to complete their education.
It is interesting to note that post-secondary educational grants to aboriginal students have increased from only 83 in 1982 to over 560 in 1992. In 1983 only 203 forgivable loans were issued to students, compared to over 550 in 1992.
Mr. Speaker, we are also doing all we can to:
- Provide for grade extensions to eliminate the need to leave home to complete education in grades 10 to 12; and
- Establish Career Development Centres to provide career counselling and employment support programs for adults.
Secondly, Mr. Speaker, we are eliminating barriers to northern employment and maximizing access to government jobs by:
- Replacing the existing classification system which rates job factors instead of a person's qualifications;
- Revising job descriptions to get rid of unrealistic qualification requirements;
- Continual monitoring of our Affirmative Action Policy to make sure hiring and training preference are provided to northerners;
- Administering a competition appeals system which gives all affirmative action candidates, including non-employees, the right to appeal competitions;
- Working with graduating post-secondary students to develop individual career plans and to locate government jobs; and
- Minimizing southern recruiting by strictly limiting the number of southern advertisements.
Mr. Speaker, jobs for communities are a key element of the strategy. As the Minister of Finance stated the other day, "we need to train people and assist them in finding jobs, rather than pay them to stay at home." As a result, we are:
- Maximizing job opportunities at the local levels when positions are decentralized to communities; and
- Developing plans for the transfer of programs and services and jobs to community levels as part of the community transfer initiative.
We are also attempting to improve our ability to keep northern employees in order to develop a more stable northern public service through:
- Orientation programs, including a cross cultural component, for all new employees;
- Surveys of present and former aboriginal employees to determine how they feel about government employment and to make changes that will improve retention rates; and
- Collective bargaining which focuses on negotiating "use in the North" benefits to attract northerners.
In addition, we providing opportunities for employees to enhance their career potential by:
- Working with departments to ensure employees have an opportunity to develop individual career plans;
- Making it possible for employees to take two year transfer assignments to other jobs to broaden their skills and improve their career potential;
- Providing education leave programs which provide funding for over 30 employees per year to take post-secondary education; and
- Operating a public service career training program, and an in-service apprenticeship training program that employs 125 trainees, over 90 per cent of whom are aboriginal people.
Mr. Speaker, the Government cannot tackle this important job by itself. Sharing the responsibility for hiring northern residents is perhaps the most important part of our strategy. As a result:
- The private sector, particularly contractors who do government work, are encouraged to recognize and demonstrate their responsibility for northern hiring; - Organizations totally funded by the government must conform to the government's northern hiring strategy;
- Organizations partially funded by the government must develop their own policies to satisfy the spirit of the northern hiring strategy;
- Government contractors and organizations funded by the government are required to report regularly on their success in northern hiring; and
- Wherever it is economically feasible, government funded construction projects include mandatory training and employment quotas for northerners.
Mr. Speaker, the various elements of our northern hiring strategy have gone a long way to increase the numbers of northerners in the government workforce. We can expect a slow but steady growth in the numbers of aboriginal and northern employees as more jobs go to the communities, and educational levels increase.
The fact remains, though, that it will not be possible for us to downgrade qualification requirements for all jobs without seriously effecting levels of service to the public.
I am prepared, however, to tighten restrictions on southern hiring by requiring departments to obtain ministerial approval before they consider southern hiring. I have also instructed my officials to conduct exit interviews for all employees to identify ways and means of reducing turnover and retaining our northern talent.
As well, we are examining the feasibility of establishing a support program for employees who need help to deal with personal and family problems, as well as substance abuse. We also plan to develop a public document outlining our strategies for northern hire, and are certainly prepared to consider recommendations of the Standing Committee on Finance.
In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, we do have a comprehensive Affirmative Action Policy and northern employment regime that have produced some good results. Regardless, the government is open to any suggestions Members may have for other steps we can take to improve our record of northern hires.
There is always room for improvement. Thank you.
Minister's Statement 87-12(2): Northern Hire
Item 2: Ministers' Statements
Page 917
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Item 2, Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements, Ms. Cournoyea. Ms. Cournoyea, I am sorry, you have to seek Members' consent. I asked you three times.
Minister's Statement 87-12(2): Northern Hire
Item 2: Ministers' Statements
Page 917
Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput
Mr. Speaker, I ask unanimous consent to make a Minister's statement.
Minister's Statement 87-12(2): Northern Hire
Item 2: Ministers' Statements
Page 917
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent. Are there any nays? There are no nays, please proceed, Ms. Cournoyea.
Minister's Statement 88-12(2): Minister's Absence From The House
Item 2: Ministers' Statements
Page 917
Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput
Mr. Speaker, the honourable Dennis Patterson will be absent from the House today, tomorrow, and Thursday, to attend a Ministers of Health conference. Thank you.
Minister's Statement 88-12(2): Minister's Absence From The House
Item 2: Ministers' Statements
Page 917
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Item 3, Members' statements, Mr. Koe.
Municipal Elections In Inuvik
Item 3: Members' Statements
Page 917
Fred Koe Inuvik
Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. I rise today, Mr. Speaker, fresh from attending an International Symposium on Democracy. Therefore the word and concept of democracy sticks in my mind. Mr. Speaker, I am not going to give a report on the symposium, which the honourable Speaker also attended. This report will be given at a later date. However, I wish to relate some of the things which I learned that are going to happen in Inuvik in mid-October, and are probably going to happen in many other communities in the north. Mr. Speaker, the dictionary defines democracy as "a government that is run by the people who live under it. Under a democracy, the people rule either by direct vote or indirectly through the election of certain representatives to government."
Mr. Speaker, the municipal elections in Inuvik will be held in mid-October. I am pleased to state that the process of democracy is alive and well, as indicated by the number of candidates who put their names forth to run for Mayor and town council. Mr. Speaker, there are four candidates for mayor, and 16 candidates vying for eight councillor positions. This is impressive and probably indicates that people are concerned, and wish to participate in the governing of their municipal affairs.
This is very healthy, and I wish the best of luck to all of the candidates. I also have a bit of advice to the voters of Inuvik. On election day exercise your democratic right, and get out and vote. Mahsi Cho.
Municipal Elections In Inuvik
Item 3: Members' Statements
Page 917
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Todd.
Member's Statement Regarding Government Response To Report Of Traditional Knowledge Working Group
Item 3: Members' Statements
Page 917
John Todd Keewatin Central
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to express my concern and disappointment at the government's response to the report of the Traditional Knowledge Working Group. Mr. Speaker, the honourable Members will be aware that this initiative was established by the previous Government Leader back in October of 1989.
The purpose of the project was to define traditional knowledge, examine its current and potential use, and identify obstacles and solutions which will increase its influence in northern society. Elders worked hand in hand with government officials and the staff of aboriginal organizations, eventually producing a report which, I thought, was excellent.
The report lays out 20 recommendations which pinpoint areas where this government can enhance its programs and services by drawing from the accumulated wisdom of elders across the Northwest Territories. Although the report was tabled in the Assembly in July of 1991, two successive governments have failed to implement the directions outlined by the working group.
Now the initiative, at least to me, appears to have been either stuck in the mud or placed on the shelf. The Government Action Report is on hold while the bureaucrats put its contents into an implementation paper for a review by Cabinet. It is disrespectful, not only to the elders who advised the Traditional Knowledge Working Group, but to the elders throughout the Northwest Territories.
My honourable colleagues from Deh Cho and Inuvik both raised this matter in this Assembly in June. I want to advise the Minister that the Members on this side of the House are not prepared to accept any further delay in seeing that the principles outlined in the report of the Traditional Knowledge Working Group become incorporated into northern government. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
---Applause
Member's Statement Regarding Government Response To Report Of Traditional Knowledge Working Group
Item 3: Members' Statements
Page 918
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Pudluk.
Immigration Of Aboriginal People To Canada's North
Item 3: Members' Statements
Page 918
Ludy Pudluk High Arctic
(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Aboriginal people have long been concerned and sympathetic for other aboriginal individuals who want to immigrate to Canada's north from other countries. These individuals must make a commitment to follow the laws of Canada if their request is approved. The immigration officials are very slow and have taken a long time to answer requests.
Inuit people have always been close knit and many years ago there were always people who moved to Canada's north from Alaska, Canadians to Alaska and from Greenland to Canada and vice versa. Years ago we never used to have any problems welcoming our fellow Inuit to our country. Such is not the case today. We have to go through immigration laws of governments and numerous bureaucracies for people to be accepted into this country.
These people should be given fewer restrictions to allow them to immigrate to northern communities if it is their wish. I have relatives who moved to Qaanaaq, Greenland many years ago and I am also aware that there have been Inuit who immigrated to Canada to the Igloolik area.
Today it is very hard for our fellow Inuit to immigrate, and we should have fewer restrictions so that we can welcome our Inuit from other countries. I feel this kind of problem should be reviewed so it would be easier for our fellow Inuit to come and live in our communities. Thank you.
---Applause
Immigration Of Aboriginal People To Canada's North
Item 3: Members' Statements
Page 918
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Lewis.
Member's Statement Regarding Constitutional Amendments
Item 3: Members' Statements
Page 918
Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I explained to the House, yesterday, I was away for part of August and part of September. While I was away I made it my business not to read newspapers and watch television, and to stay away from the media as much as I possibly could. However, I was delighted when I came back and found that, as a result of a meeting in Charlottetown; Canada, at least, has a consensus agreement on our Constitution.
While I was away, I did spend a bit of time reflecting on the fact that all over the world people are dealing with constitutional problems. We think we are unique until you realize that there are six countries in Yugoslavia that are now working on their constitutions. There are more than a dozen republics in the old Soviet Union that are working on their constitutions. Both East and West Germany are trying to unify, and they are working on their constitution. You find that the Philippines are working on their constitution. The people of Israel are working on their constitution. So, we are not unique.
However, Mr. Speaker, the point I want to make, today, is that things can happen when people of good get together. I was pleasantly surprised to find that this process, which has taken such a long time, has resulted in the kind of compromise which will not please everybody, of course. For example, when we buy a house, we may not like the front look of it, we might not like the look of where the garage is, or the colour of the paint, or the exact location of the grounds, the gate, and so on. But overall, we think, well, a lot of people have worked on this, this is what we have come up with, and it represents a compromise among people.
Having read through that consensus agreement now, Mr. Speaker, I feel very pleased at the part that many people throughout this country have played in trying to come to a sensible conclusion to what has been a long and acrimonious debate. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Member's Statement Regarding Constitutional Amendments
Item 3: Members' Statements
Page 918
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Thank you. Recognizing the Speaker's Gallery, the Council General from the Netherlands, Monsieur Dominique Bauduin and his wife Marie Bauduin. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Gargan.
The Council For Aboriginal Justice
Item 3: Members' Statements
Page 918
Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have already spoken about the federal government's $26 million initiative dealing with the administration of aboriginal justice. While I believe that this project is long overdue, I am concerned about the federal position to appoint a former Chief Crown Counsel for the Northwest Territories as Director General of the Minister's Aboriginal Justice Council. The lawyer, Don Avison, is the same Crown Prosecutor who ordered the arrest of Kitty Nowdluk Reynolds, an Inuit woman who had been beaten and raped in Iqaluit.
Ms. Nowdluk was subsequently arrested at her new home in British Columbia, detained in a Vancouver jail for 4 days, dragged across Canada in handcuffs, and locked in a van with the same man who had raped her. After all of that, the Crown Counsel made a last minute decision that her testimony was not even needed. This shameful episode was initiated by the same Don Avison, who is now Director of the Federal Initiative on Aboriginal Justice.
Mr. Speaker, when the R.C.M.P. Commissioner, Norman Inkster, appeared before the House of Commons Justice Committee in April of 1992, he apologized for R.C.M.P. mistreatment of the victim. In contrast, shortly after the incident was reported, Mr. Avison appeared on Focus North and attempted to justify his decision to arrest Kitty.
The federal initiative on aboriginal justice is long waited.
The Council For Aboriginal Justice
Item 3: Members' Statements
Page 918
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Point of order, Mr. Kakfwi.
Point Of Order
The Council For Aboriginal Justice
Item 3: Members' Statements
Page 918
Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
Mr. Speaker, the Member continues to name an individual, in the course of his statements the last few days. I think it would reflect badly on this House if he continues that, because the individual that he is naming did not act as a private individual. He was acting as the Crown Attorney, and the Member should refer to the person in the capacity of the office that he held at the time. Thank you.
Speaker's Ruling
The Council For Aboriginal Justice
Item 3: Members' Statements
Page 918
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
In listening to the Member's statement, that is not a point of order, however, I will caution the Member to be cautious in making allegations, or insinuations, about individuals. To this point, the Member has not done that, but I would caution all Members to be very careful when we are
talking about individuals who are not able to defend themselves in this House. Carry on, Mr. Gargan.
The Council For Aboriginal Justice
Item 3: Members' Statements
Page 919
Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Thank you. One has to ask how the credibility of the initiative may be impacted by the selection of a director whose apathy and understanding of aboriginal issues has been drawn into question, as a result of this insensitive and highly bureaucratic treatment of this aboriginal women.
One also has to question how much, or what sort of input was received from northerners, and from the Government of the Northwest Territories, when the appointment was being considered. I will have more to say about that at a later time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
---Applause
The Council For Aboriginal Justice
Item 3: Members' Statements
Page 919
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Arngna'naaq.
Artisans Acquiring Funding
Item 3: Members' Statements
Page 919
Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I rise today out of concern over the difficulty that some artisans are experiencing with respect to obtaining funds for business development and market expansion.
According to the report of the Standing Committee on National Economy, retail sales for arts and crafts run about $20 million a year. The S.C.O.N.E. report also pointed out, however, that industry sales could improve significantly with more effective promotion, and more attention to ensuring the highest quality of product.
Mr. Speaker, the establishment of new markets for northern products has been an issue raised by my honourable colleague, the Member for Baffin Central. I too believe that this is important, especially for our fine arts industry. I am aware that staff resources do not exist within the Department of Economic Development and Tourism to develop new international and domestic markets for N.W.T. tourism, arts and crafts, and Arctic foods.
However, it is my view, that wherever possible, the private sector should take the lead role in organizing and coordinating market development activity. I know this is not going to be possible for all northern products, but where it is, I would much rather see the government providing contribution funding to northern galleries and distributors; which after all, are the experts in the field, rather than this becoming the exclusive jurisdiction of departmental personnel.
This was driven home for me when I discovered that a Keewatin firm, with a successful ten year history of dealing in fine arts, had experienced difficulty securing funding for badly needed expansion and market development.
Ookpiktuyuk Art of Baker Lake, which is owned and operated by Inuit, has an exciting proposal that would involve mounting exhibitions of works of some of our best known artists. I was concerned to learn, recently, that the people behind this proposal got nowhere in their attempt to access E.D.A. funding, and that they are running into a brick wall with the department.
I hope the Minister will agree with me on the importance of developing new markets for our northern artists, and will look into the matter of the proposal at his earliest convenience.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Artisans Acquiring Funding
Item 3: Members' Statements
Page 919
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Pudlat.
The Retirement Of A Constituent
Item 3: Members' Statements
Page 919
Kenoayoak Pudlat Baffin South
(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today, and would like to compliment, as I do not think that I could work for that number of years as this particular person advised me that he will be retiring in December. When I was a child there were not too many people who were bilingual. He has helped the unilingual Inuit. In December, that person will be retiring and has been working for 47 years, he will be turning 65.
On behalf of my constituents, I would like to thank him for his tremendous help to the Inuit, and to the non-Inuit alike. Mr. Speaker, I do not think that I could work for that number of years, especially on the same job. I would like to thank you that I could share this with the Members. Thank you.
The Retirement Of A Constituent
Item 3: Members' Statements
Page 919
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Antoine.
Aboriginal Justice Conference
Item 3: Members' Statements
Page 919
Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. I would like to let the House know that at the end of this month, September 29, 30 and October 1, 1992 there is going to be a conference in Fort Simpson that deals with justice in Deh Cho. This is a forum that relates to what my colleague, Mr. Gargan, has been talking about: that is, aboriginal justice reform. We are going to be dealing with a number of issues, such as existing system and current developments, community justice models, aboriginal and justice initiatives, and community justice and policing. These are the issues that we want to expose the communities and the constituency to. With the amount of funding that Mr. Gargan is talking about, I was wondering if the Department of Justice and Corrections Department would help out in this endeavour.
I would like to invite the different Members here to come and participate in this conference being held in Fort Simpson. Thank you.
Aboriginal Justice Conference
Item 3: Members' Statements
Page 919
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Nerysoo.
Member's Statement Wishing The Clerk A Happy Birthday
Item 3: Members' Statements
Page 919
Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I wish, on behalf of all my colleagues, in particular on this side of the House, but I know that all Members will join with me, in extending our wishes to our Clerk on his birthday.
---Applause
I will not ask him how old he is, or should I say how young? I hope that he is as fresh as Mr. Koe is.
Member's Statement Wishing The Clerk A Happy Birthday
Item 3: Members' Statements
Page 919
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Item 3, Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Gargan.
Question O768-12(2): Participation In Gender Awareness Training Program
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 919
Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, the report on the special advisor on gender equality was tabled on June 29, 1992 and titled "The Justice House". In the report, Ms. Katherine Peterson, Queen's Counsel, recommended that training in gender issues should be made available for members of the judiciary, Crown attorneys, Crown administrators, and other people who work in the justice system.
Earlier today, I referred to the fact that the current Director General of the Federal Council for Aboriginal Justice Administration is the same individual who was responsible for the arrest, detention and humiliation of Kitty Nowdluk Reynolds. Recognizing the importance of Ms. Peterson's recommendations, and the Director General's prior history of insensitivity to gender issues in the Kitty Nowdluk case, will the Minister of Justice communicate immediately with his federal counterparts and insist that his official participate in the mandatory gender awareness training program?
Question O768-12(2): Participation In Gender Awareness Training Program
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 920
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Mr. Kakfwi.
Return To Question O768-12(2): Participation In Gender Awareness Training Program
Question O768-12(2): Participation In Gender Awareness Training Program
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 920
Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
Mr. Speaker, I will not even rise to answer that, I will take it as notice. Thank you.
Return To Question O768-12(2): Participation In Gender Awareness Training Program
Question O768-12(2): Participation In Gender Awareness Training Program
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 920
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Would you, Mr. Kakfwi? The rules say that you must rise to answer. I am sorry.
Return To Question O768-12(2): Participation In Gender Awareness Training Program
Question O768-12(2): Participation In Gender Awareness Training Program
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 920
Return To Question O768-12(2): Participation In Gender Awareness Training Program
Question O768-12(2): Participation In Gender Awareness Training Program
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 920
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Next time you can stand up. The question has been taken as notice. Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Koe.
Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 920
Fred Koe Inuvik
Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, on December 10, 1991, the Minister of Intergovernmental and Aboriginal Affairs announced this government's initiatives for transferring responsibilities to communities. In the Minister's statement, he stated that community self-government will be a major priority of this government. The Minister also stated that a community transfer committee was established and I quote, "is in the process of developing a comprehensive strategy for implementing community transfer agreements."
This statement was made on December 10, 1991. My question to the Minister is, at what stage of development is the comprehensive strategy for implementing community transfer agreements?
Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 920
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Mr. Kakfwi.
Return To Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 920
Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
Mr. Speaker, the implementation of those recommendations has been attempted to be agreed to through this committee in the last few months. I believe it is fair to say there have been some difficulties because of, perhaps, philosophical or political views on how to approach the job. I think it is part of the historical struggle of self-government in the Northwest Territories, particularly in the Mackenzie Valley, between the territorial government and some of the more rhetorical leaders out in the field.
In any case, I have advised that I am not prepared to wait any longer, and have approached Cabinet with a specific request, that I will expedite a proposal myself which I want to run through the Cabinet committee called the Political and Constitutional Development Committee, so that Cabinet can ratify it. I think we have given this rather high level deputy minister's committee sufficient time to work out a strategy and an approach, and, I believe, that the difference of view and opinion are so fundamental, that it is not realistic to expect them to deliver a strategy, so I have taken the approach I have just outlined. Thank you.
Return To Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 920
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Supplementary, Mr. Koe.
Supplementary To Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 920
Fred Koe Inuvik
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The committee the Minister is referring to, I assume, is the committee that is made up of the deputy ministers who are in place to oversee the process. And you mention that you have taken away the responsibilities in this process. Can you explain if that Committee is still in place, or have you taken the responsibility for developing this initiative?
Supplementary To Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 920
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Mr. Kakfwi.
Further Return To Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 920
Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
Mr. Speaker, the committee is still in place and their responsibility is still to coordinate the approach. What I have said is that the basic principles on which the committee feels they must start to develop a strategy on how to approach community transfer initiatives is flawed, in that the different members of the committee can not agree on the basic principles, at least the principles we thought they would have.
They might have trouble interpreting on how flexible they should be on the approach. So, what I have done is serve notice that, as a Minister, I am going to ask Cabinet to consider clarifying, again, what it is expediting as an approach that I think the committee should continue its work on. So, that is the statement I was trying to make. Thank you.
Further Return To Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 920
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Item 5, oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Koe.
Supplementary To Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 920
Fred Koe Inuvik
Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. So, it has taken eight and a half months, since December, to come to the realization that things are not all that great within the bureaucracy. Yesterday, I made reference to some of the statements the Minister made about Fort McPherson, and quoted that the bureaucrats should shape up or ship out. So, I assume that the statement will be made to these deputies who are obviously having trouble dealing with the initiatives that were stated in December.
My question is what further steps are you going to be taking to ensure that the initiatives as presented by, for example, the Gwich'in, are you going to be dealing with this proposal very quickly?
Supplementary To Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 920
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Mr. Kakfwi.
Further Return To Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 920
Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
Mr. Speaker, I think if the Member is going to try and quote me he should be a little more precise about it, I never use the words that he used. This is what I said, civil servants do not come to line with the approach that I want to advocate, as long as I am the Minister, they can face the prospect of being put out to pasture. By that I meant, that they can go work in other fields, other than this one, if they do not have the philosophical coherency to take the approach that I want, to negotiate any community transfers and self-
government arrangements. Then we will see that they work in another area of government, where their skills and their philosophies are less antagonistic. I did not intend to mean that I am going to seek to have them removed from the civil service at all. That should be clarified.
In any case, the Gwich'in have served notice that they want to start negotiations on the framework for self-government, and I have indicated that I am prepared to see these negotiations begin. That, personally, I do not see any short term or on the short term any immediate tangible results. Strategically, I asked them to consider the possibility that we look at getting into community transfer initiative talks, as if it was all part of self-government negotiations at the community level, and that this would certainly be done without prejudicing self- government negotiations. Irregardless of whether they go for an aboriginal form of self-government, or whether they go to be part of a public government, that the basic intent is that there will be a strong community government. That is what the intent of the community transfer initiatives are. So, that is what the message was to the Gwich'in. Thank you.
Further Return To Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 921
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
I would like to remind all Members to be cautious that if you are attributing quotations to honourable Members of this House from sources that are not officially in front of this House, that can cause some difficulties. I ask Members to be cautious about this.
Item 5, oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Koe.
Supplementary To Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 921
Fred Koe Inuvik
Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. It seems like a case of tail wagging a dog, or who is leading who. The Minister is responsible for this initiative. I would like to ask the Minister, is he still committed to making every effort possible to incorporate aspirations for aboriginal self-government to policies, and a process for implementing community self- government.
Supplementary To Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 921
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Mr. Kakfwi.
Further Return To Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 921
Further Return To Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Question O769-12(2): Status Of Community Transfer Agreements
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 921
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Nerysoo.
Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 921
Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If I could ask the Minister of Intergovernmental and Aboriginal Affairs, in February there was a statement made by the honourable Government Leader. One of the first steps to be taken in the community government transfer, was to develop the process of transfer to community government, deciding which responsibilities might be transferred. To aid this process the government would ensure that all government programs would be considered available for transfer, that resources that were to be transferred will be sufficient for communities to alter, design, and the communities to meet local needs and priorities.
At the same time, the government would decide what powers and responsibilities for programs will remain with the government Ministers.
At what stage is the development of that particular document, so that, in fact, we were supposed to have received that on April 30, 1992, immediately after the M.L.A.s were to be consulted? Could the Minister indicate at what stage is the development of those particular documents?
Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 921
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Mr. Kakfwi.
Return To Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 921
Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
Mr. Speaker, the paper, itself, is in its final stages, and has been effected by the internal workings, as I mentioned earlier.
I think it is important to note two things, one is that the talks at the national constitutional level have added a lot of weight to those sceptics who have always taken the view that we can offer some but not all, it is up to us to decide what can and cannot be transferred. It has been my view from the beginning that the aboriginal people have the inherent right to govern themselves, that includes everything that this government has the capacity to govern, legislate on, and perhaps more. That has been my approach.
Understandably, perhaps, there have been elements in this government that have taken a different approach, so the developments at the constitutional level has, in my view, landed, I think, in my favour, the favour of this Cabinet as well on the views of the M.L.A.s, and certainly the communities that were slated for. We have taken the view that it is all part of self-government negotiations. It kind of flies contrary to one of the recommendations of the Standing Committee on Finance. It says that M.A.C.A. should be the lead Minister on this. Thank you.
Return To Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 921
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Supplementary, Mr. Nerysoo.
Supplementary To Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 921
Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Maybe that philosophical difference in this House might exist, in terms of interpretation. I do not believe that all Cabinet Members are totally committed to the idea of aboriginal self-government in the context of what is in the constitution. Maybe that is where some of the philosophical differences exist.
I want to ask, in light of that remark, that it seems that the documents are not concluded. Why are Members, and maybe there is a misquote in the papers, being accused of not, in fact, supporting the initiatives, when the work has not been brought before us to review and, in fact, support the direction that the Minister might be wanting to take?
Supplementary To Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 921
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Mr. Kakfwi.
Further Return To Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 921
Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
Mr. Speaker, when the statement was made to the Gwich'in, I made the comments that, in my view, the motion that was passed in April, said that none of the recommendations contained in the "Strength at Two Levels" document should be implemented until the Members have had a chance to review, approve them, and implementation put in place. That signalled, to me, that departmental reorganization, as well as the community transfer talks, could not be assumed to have a go ahead until it has been reviewed. That has been my interpretation of that, and, as well, I think Members know my own personal frustration with the lack of emphasis on the
discussions of the Strength at Two Levels. My view, having been involved in this political and constitutional issue for all the years that I have, I guess that I assumed that when the government says that they are prepared to begin right away, to begin talks, and transferring programs and responsibilities, and authorities to communities, that we would get a green light, and I did not feel that it really warranted that discussion, that we should have proceeded much faster than we did.
Further Return To Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 922
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Supplementary, Mr. Nerysoo.
Supplementary To Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Agreement
Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 922
Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Mr. Speaker, I was involved in negotiations for the self-government agreement for the Keewatin, and, in fact, the inherent right that is in there, is far more than what has been proposed by the community transfer initiatives, and, I think, that if I could ask the Minister, on what basis is this committee to give approval on the programs and services to be transferred if we do not know the programs and services that you want to transfer, or the financial resources that we have to vote in the budget? How are we to, in fact, support the Minister if we do not have that information?
Supplementary To Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Agreement
Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 922
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Mr. Kakfwi.
Further Return To Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Agreement
Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 922
Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
Mr. Speaker, as I said earlier, it has been my personal view for many years that the Dene, and the Metis, and the Inuit, the aboriginal people in the north, have a right to govern themselves, and that if they want the entire authority and responsibility, the resources that this government now has the good grace to manage and administrate it, is there for the taking. That has been a long standing view of the Dene leadership over the years, and I believe that is the approach I take, so I do not suggest for one minute that I want to wait until I figure out the cost. My view was we should have all jumped up in November, and said, "we have finally got a commitment that gives us the green light," and go at it as fast as we can, because the communities will give us the instructions. That was a disappointment in the approach. Thank you.
Further Return To Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Agreement
Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 922
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Supplementary, Mr. Nerysoo.
Supplementary To Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 922
Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Mr. Speaker, I think what is disappointing to me, by the remarks of the Minister, is the fact that in some of these particular programs that we are now supposedly administratively responsible for, we are in debt situations, and I am not prepared, Mr. Speaker, to transfer any responsibility to my communities in which they are already going to be running in debt. So, I want to ask the Minister, at what time are we going to deal with the question of financial resources for these particular transfers, and vote those dollars in the budget? This particular budget does not include those dollars to be identified.
Supplementary To Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 922
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Mr. Kakfwi.
Further Return To Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 922
Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
Mr. Speaker, I think that is part of the problem that is skirting this exchange. It is my view that we have to accept as political fact the debate about what happens, in large part, is not going to be decided in the confines of this House; that, as well as the larger constitutional political issues, involves more than just M.L.A.s and Ministers. It involves the Metis leaders, the Inuit leaders, the Dene Chiefs, and it applies to the same things as the community transfer initiatives, I think we should have some general parameters that would govern our approach to it. But, by and large, it has to be a community based developed joint approach, and the communities will be the ones who tell us what they are interested in talking about, how they want to talk about it, and what resources, if any, will be required to get into this approach. Any other kind of approach, any kind of prepackaged approach, is going to fail, because it will have come out of this Legislature, this government. The ownership that we need to develop by the people at the community level is not going to be there. I agree with the Member, if, for instance, Dene Chiefs want to go to Ottawa, and say "we will negotiate bilaterally with the federal government," they can do that. There is no difficulty with it whatsoever, but I believe the Member will agree that this is the prerogative for the communities to decide, and not the Members of this Legislature.
Further Return To Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 922
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Point of privilege, Mr. Nerysoo.
Point Of Privilege
Further Return To Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 922
Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. My privilege, as a representative of the communities, and the people in my constituency, is not to be challenged by another Member, by indicating that I do not know what is in the interest of my constituents. Especially, as an aboriginal person.
Further Return To Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Question O770-12(2): Status Of Program Transfer Document
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 922
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
I will take your point of privilege under advisement, and return to the House at an appropriate time with a response. Oral questions, Mr. Bernhardt.
Question O771-12(2): Requirements For Teacher Training
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 922
Ernie Bernhardt Kitikmeot
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister responsible for Education. Arctic College offers teacher education programs at its Thebacha and Nunatta campuses, and throughout community progress in the western Arctic and Keewatin regions. It is important that northern people who will stay in the north, be trained to teach our children. Mr. Speaker, it is also very important that the most capable and committed people be chosen. Teachers must be highly trained and able to teach our children to develop their knowledge and skills they need in core subjects, such as maths and sciences. These teachers are instructing our future leaders who must be able to compete and succeed in an increasingly technological society. Our children's skills must be our highest priorities. My question is, Mr. Speaker, can the Minister explain what requirements are in place to ensure that the most capable and committed individuals are chosen for teacher training?
Question O771-12(2): Requirements For Teacher Training
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 922
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Mr. Arvaluk.
Return To Question O771-12(2): Requirements For Teacher Training
Question O771-12(2): Requirements For Teacher Training
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 922
James Arvaluk Aivilik
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is rather technical and requires a detailed answer. So, I will take that as notice.
Return To Question O771-12(2): Requirements For Teacher Training
Question O771-12(2): Requirements For Teacher Training
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 922
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Question has been taken as notice. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.
Question O772-12(2): Collective Approach For Advertising
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 923
Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Culture and Communications. Mr. Speaker, recently I was approached with respect to the procedures used by the government for advertising, whether it be advertising for jobs, or tenders, or whatever, but there is a concern that the territorial papers with a larger circulation, have been given preference for opportunity of advertising. I would like to ask the Minister of Culture and Communications, has there been consideration for more of a collective approach to advertising which will reflect equity among the distribution of departments to these particularly smaller papers? Thank you.
Question O772-12(2): Collective Approach For Advertising
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 923
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Mr. Kakfwi.
Return To Question O772-12(2): Collective Approach For Advertising
Question O772-12(2): Collective Approach For Advertising
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 923
Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
Mr. Speaker, these policies of advertising fall under the Department of Personnel, and as a result of the cutbacks, we asked the department to come up with a policy that would be fair, and still serve the needs of the government. It is to have the advertisements reach as many people in the north for the least amount of dollars, and the approach was to use fewer regional small papers, and go with the big papers, since we do not have as many dollars to go around, and double advertise, in some cases, and that was the decision that was made. Thank you.
Return To Question O772-12(2): Collective Approach For Advertising
Question O772-12(2): Collective Approach For Advertising
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 923
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Item 5, oral questions. Supplementary, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.
Supplementary To Question O772-12(2): Collective Approach To Advertising
Question O772-12(2): Collective Approach For Advertising
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 923
Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha
Mr. Speaker, just to seek clarification from the Minister. Has the Minister indicated to this House that this advertising is the responsibility of Personnel even for tender advertising, or any other type of advertising this government may decide?
Supplementary To Question O772-12(2): Collective Approach To Advertising
Question O772-12(2): Collective Approach For Advertising
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 923
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Mr. Kakfwi.
Further Return To Question O772-12(2): Collective Approach To Advertising
Question O772-12(2): Collective Approach For Advertising
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 923
Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, I was talking about just the job advertisements. Thank you.
Further Return To Question O772-12(2): Collective Approach To Advertising
Question O772-12(2): Collective Approach For Advertising
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 923
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Supplementary, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.
Supplementary To Question O772-12(2): Collective Approach To Advertising
Question O772-12(2): Collective Approach For Advertising
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 923
Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha
Mr. Speaker, supplementary to my same question, but I do not know if it is appropriate to ask another Minister. I would like to pose a question to the Government Leader. Is there one particular department that is responsible for advertising in the government?
Supplementary To Question O772-12(2): Collective Approach To Advertising
Question O772-12(2): Collective Approach For Advertising
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 923
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
That would constitute a new question, you are going to a new Minister, Mrs. Marie-Jewell. So, I will go on to Mr. Todd, and then we can get back to you if you want to ask the question. Mr. Todd.
Question O773-12(2): Establishment Of Territorial Elders' Council
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 923
John Todd Keewatin Central
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Government Leader. Mr. Speaker, I believe that this government, as it moves in the future, must retain the wisdom of the past in order to show all of our cultures how to live and work together. The Traditional Knowledge Working Group recognized this when it recommended the establishment of a Territorial Elders' Council. It would be a formal body within our government infrastructure which would ensure that traditional knowledge of known elders is shared with legislators and policy makers.
Slow down? Okay, sorry, slow down. Does our government plan to take the unique and truly northern step by supporting the recommendation of the working group and establish a Territorial Elders' Council?
Question O773-12(2): Establishment Of Territorial Elders' Council
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 923
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Madam Premier.
Return To Question O773-12(2): Establishment Of Territorial Elders' Council
Question O773-12(2): Establishment Of Territorial Elders' Council
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 923
Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput
Mr. Speaker, on August 4, just to give a little bit of background in the context of departmental consolidations, the Cabinet transferred the official languages section of the Department of Culture and Communications to the Department of the Executive. The responsibility, I would just like to go on, of that unit is the coordination and delivery of official language services throughout the government, and this includes: development of government-wide guidelines for the provision of services; the coordination of government initiatives with respect to the maintenance and the revitalization of aboriginal languages, including identification of priorities; the coordination of negotiations with the federal government for the funding of official languages agreements; and the coordination of the implementation of official languages agreements and evaluation of monitoring of these agreements. As well, the coordination of responses of reports, recommendations and requests for information on the Official Languages Commissioner.
Mr. Speaker, as well, Elizabeth Biscaye was appointed Assistant Deputy Minister responsible for the official languages units. In a more specific response, we are supportive of the utilization and the promotion of traditional knowledge within the limits of what is possible, I suppose, within financial restraints. What I am trying to do, as Government Leader, is to take that report in acknowledgement of the timing that was initially agreed to, recognizing that we are behind time in responding to that report.
With the official languages, as well as a number of other initiatives, we want to put together a working group, and I know that the honourable Member feels that it is further delaying some of the implementations, but I would hope that if the honourable Member -- I know, that there are a lot of people that are interested in the traditional working knowledge, and I fully support that because I believe for a long time now we have not really taken adequate notice of traditional knowledge. I have a very special interest in that, and I want to get together and look at the report and look at the commitments we have made.
I know that there was a paper in June brought forward to the Cabinet by the Minister of Culture and Communications, and I am going to make a commitment to bring back to you the findings and the workings in November of what steps we are planning and the priorities we are going set in November. Thank you.
Return To Question O773-12(2): Establishment Of Territorial Elders' Council
Question O773-12(2): Establishment Of Territorial Elders' Council
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 924
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Could I ask Members to slow down a little bit, the interpreters are having a little bit of trouble following. Supplementary, Mr. Todd. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.
Question O774-12(2): Collective Approach To Advertising
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 924
Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Government Leader in respect to a collective approach to advertising for the government. Since the Minister of Communications and Culture is not responsible for anything in respect to communications, since the Minister of Personnel has indicated that he is only responsible for advertising in respect to job competitions, I would like to ask the Government Leader if she will consider some method of cohesive approach in respect to advertising opportunities for all of the papers in the territories? Thank you.
Question O774-12(2): Collective Approach To Advertising
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 924
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Ms. Cournoyea.
Return To Question O774-12(2): Collective Approach To Advertising
Question O774-12(2): Collective Approach To Advertising
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 924
Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput
Yes, Mr. Speaker, we recognize that, although the government service did put out the advertisement for the needs of various departments, various different departments were also putting out their own advertisements. What we are doing now with the Financial Management Board is to draw together all of the different approaches that have been taken by the various departments, to see if we can collectively come up with an overall policy to deal with the matter the honourable Member has raised.
Return To Question O774-12(2): Collective Approach To Advertising
Question O774-12(2): Collective Approach To Advertising
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 924
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Supplementary, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.
Supplementary To Question O774-12(2): Collective Approach To Advertising
Question O774-12(2): Collective Approach To Advertising
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 924
Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Would the Government Leader be able to advise this House as to when we would anticipate this policy be completed? Thank you.
Supplementary To Question O774-12(2): Collective Approach To Advertising
Question O774-12(2): Collective Approach To Advertising
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 924
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Ms. Cournoyea.
Further Return To Question O774-12(2): Collective Approach To Advertising
Question O774-12(2): Collective Approach To Advertising
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 924
Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput
Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance has indicated that the meeting of the publishers' groups, which we have set up, will be meeting within a month and, hopefully, immediately after that we will be able to come up with some type of a policy that we can share with all Members.
Further Return To Question O774-12(2): Collective Approach To Advertising
Question O774-12(2): Collective Approach To Advertising
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 924
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Arngna'naaq.
Question O775-12(2): Access To Developmental Funding
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 924
Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I mentioned earlier, I am interested in ensuring that private firms with a successful track record are able to receive funding they require to establish new markets and build new distribution networks. I would like to ask the Minister of Economic Development whether he can indicate what options are available for businesses to access developmental funding for market expansion. Thank you.
Question O775-12(2): Access To Developmental Funding
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 924
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Mr. Pollard.
Return To Question O775-12(2): Access To Developmental Funding
Question O775-12(2): Access To Developmental Funding
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 924
John Pollard Hay River
Mr. Speaker, there are a number of sources of funding. We have grants, contributions, a loan fund, and that is within the Department of Economic Development and Tourism. We also have the E.D.A. agreement which has some marketing monies available in it, and there is also the possibility that arrangements could be made with the Business Development Corporation in that regard, as well. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Return To Question O775-12(2): Access To Developmental Funding
Question O775-12(2): Access To Developmental Funding
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 924
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Item 5, oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Arngna'naaq.
Supplementary To Question O775-12(2): Access To Developmental Funding
Question O775-12(2): Access To Developmental Funding
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 924
Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary to the same Minister. I am sure that the Minister is aware that some types of businesses, like fine art galleries, must carry a high cost inventory. In fact, I know that the work one of the artists deals with Ookpiktuyuk in Baker Lake averages $2,000 a piece for each carving. This heavy outlay for the acquisition of a high quality inventory sometimes makes it difficult to secure bank funding to expand even the most sound business. Can the Minister assure the House that these considerations are taken into account in reviewing applications for art galleries and distributors? Thank you.
Supplementary To Question O775-12(2): Access To Developmental Funding
Question O775-12(2): Access To Developmental Funding
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 924
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Mr. Pollard.
Further Return To Question O775-12(2): Access Developmental Funding
Question O775-12(2): Access To Developmental Funding
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 924
John Pollard Hay River
Mr. Speaker, when we assess these kinds of inventory arrangements, I think that we are cognizant of the fact that all of the inventory cannot be high priced items. There must be a mix in there of items that can move. We are aware, and it is pointed out continually to me by the Arctic Cooperatives, that sitting with a large inventory is very costly.
Arctic Cooperatives has in excess of $1 million sitting in inventory. I am aware of the problem, and we do take those things into consideration when we sit down to discuss with people how we may assist them. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Further Return To Question O775-12(2): Access Developmental Funding
Question O775-12(2): Access To Developmental Funding
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 924
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Nerysoo.
Question O776-12(2): Flood Damage Funding
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 924
Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask a question of the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs. I want to indicate that the residents of the Mackenzie Delta have expressed concern about not hearing from the government on dealing with matters relating to flood damage.
I wanted to ask the Minister, has the Cabinet or the Minister discussed financing repairs of homes and businesses when flood damage has occurred?
Question O776-12(2): Flood Damage Funding
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 924
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Mr. Allooloo.
Return To Question O776-12(2): Flood Damage Funding
Question O776-12(2): Flood Damage Funding
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 924
Titus Allooloo Amittuq
Mr. Speaker, I believe the previous Minister took some documents to Cabinet to deal with flood damages in the western Arctic area.
The assistance that people are able to get is under the Disaster Assistance Policy. That has been approved by Cabinet. There are also requests that can be made to Cabinet by the Minister of M.A.C.A. in case of wide spread damage, as a result of emergencies or flooding. This criteria is used to access the need for implementing the policy, including weather damage so wide spread that a significant number of people, and property, or the geographical areas are effected. Other criteria is that municipal authorities and community residents made serious effort to protect their property and minimize damage. Mr. Speaker, to my knowledge, at this point, the extraordinary funding has not been made available to flood damage. Thank you.
Return To Question O776-12(2): Flood Damage Funding
Question O776-12(2): Flood Damage Funding
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 925
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Supplementary, Mr. Nerysoo.
Supplementary To Question O776-12(2): Flood Damage Funding
Question O776-12(2): Flood Damage Funding
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 925
Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can I ask the Minister to indicate whether or not his department is going to provide financial assistance for those individuals and those homes that have received flood damage, or damage as a result of the flood?
Supplementary To Question O776-12(2): Flood Damage Funding
Question O776-12(2): Flood Damage Funding
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 925
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Mr. Allooloo.
Further Return To Question O776-12(2): Flood Damage Funding
Question O776-12(2): Flood Damage Funding
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 925
Titus Allooloo Amittuq
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will take the question as notice, and get back to the Member tomorrow.
Further Return To Question O776-12(2): Flood Damage Funding
Question O776-12(2): Flood Damage Funding
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 925
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
The question has been taken as notice. Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Lewis.
Question O777-12(2): Impact Of Merger On Northern Transportation Industry
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 925
Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is a question for the Minister responsible for Transportation, who has not been busy today.
Mr. Speaker, we have all been told that Air Canada and Canadian Airlines International are about to merge. A lot of us know that Canadian Airlines International has always been a western based company. It has its ancestry, back in the old C.P. Airline, she eventually gobbled up Max Ward and several other smaller western airlines. We are also aware that Canadian Airline crews, as many as forty of them, are based in western Canada. Air Canada's crews are all based in eastern Canada.
I would like to ask the Minister responsible for Transportation, whether he has analyzed the impact this merger will have on the northern transportation industry, as it regards air transportation, both for passengers and for freight?
Question O777-12(2): Impact Of Merger On Northern Transportation Industry
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 925
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Mr. Whitford.
Return To Question O777-12(2): Impact Of Merger On Northern Transportation Industry
Question O777-12(2): Impact Of Merger On Northern Transportation Industry
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 925
Tony Whitford Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Not to the detail that the Member is asking, about employees and where they are going to eventually end up being trimmed. The merge, the proposed merge, is not yet completed and there is still a lot of details to be ironed out by the news reports that I have been unable to review. It suggests that the strongest, Air Canada, is going to be situated in the east and that its subsidiary, if you can call it that, Canadian will still be situated in the west, in Calgary.
There is bound to be some lay offs, some cutbacks in services but to this point in time we are not really sure what the final impact is going to be.
Return To Question O777-12(2): Impact Of Merger On Northern Transportation Industry
Question O777-12(2): Impact Of Merger On Northern Transportation Industry
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 925
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Supplementary, Mr. Lewis.
Supplementary To Question O777-12(2): Impact Of Merger On Northern Transportation Industry
Question O777-12(2): Impact Of Merger On Northern Transportation Industry
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 925
Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre
I do not want to prolong this, Mr. Speaker, but it is a major step in the airline industry in Canada, and obviously we do not know all the facts. I would like to ask the Minister, whether you will undertake to stay on top of this issue, and to get his staff to work on it, because many of us believe that what is going to happen with a monopoly situation is that the isolated parts of this country are going to suffer. I would like to ask him if he would tell his staff to keep on top of it and to keep us informed.
Supplementary To Question O777-12(2): Impact Of Merger On Northern Transportation Industry
Question O777-12(2): Impact Of Merger On Northern Transportation Industry
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 925
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Ms. Cournoyea.
Further Return To Question O777-12(2): Impact Of Merger On Northern Transportation Industry
Question O777-12(2): Impact Of Merger On Northern Transportation Industry
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 925
Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput
Mr. Speaker, as this issue has been on the horizon for some time, I have asked that the Minister of Economic Development stay on top of this issue and, in particular, the concern about the airlines in the north in relationship on how the final deal is going to come out, because of the economic issue and the problems that we are having now. For about seven or eight months, those particular questions, because of the direct relationship with airlines, would be better referred to the Minister of Economic Development. Thank you.
Further Return To Question O777-12(2): Impact Of Merger On Northern Transportation Industry
Question O777-12(2): Impact Of Merger On Northern Transportation Industry
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 925
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Bernhardt.
Question O778-12(2): Resources To Support Released Inmates
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 925
Ernie Bernhardt Kitikmeot
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Justice, who has now assumed responsibility for the territorial correctional system. The Minister will know that many northerners are concerned about the almost total lack of correctional after care services in our communities.
When these offenders face considerable pressure as they attempt to adjust to their return to community living, they often have trouble finding new social networks, and many employers are unable to hire them. Yet, in most of our isolated communities, the correctional system provides almost no support during this period. I know, because I have been in this kind of a situation.
Can the Minister of Justice indicate what he is going to do to ensure that adequate resources are made available to support offenders upon release from incarceration?
Question O778-12(2): Resources To Support Released Inmates
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 925
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Mr. Kakfwi.
Return To Question O778-12(2): Resources To Support Released Inmates
Question O778-12(2): Resources To Support Released Inmates
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 925
Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
Mr. Speaker, one of the initiatives of this government has been called the community justice initiatives. This initiative basically suggests that those communities that want to take on more responsibility for the administration of justice, when they get involved in the courts, advise the system on how to do sentencing, what to do with the offenders, and that sort of thing. It takes more and more
ownership, and they start to say how do you think justice should be handled and administered. That would be, I think, the route, that I would see, addressing this issue. It is interesting to note, I think Coppermine is one of the communities that has asked for a meeting with Justice, to start discussing how the people of Coppermine might want to start telling the Justice people how they want justice administered. I think there is a couple of good examples. I think comments were made during the Standing Committee on Finance that building large jails, having non-aboriginal people taking responsibility for aboriginal inmates is not going to work, that it is going to continue to grow in cost with very little return, as the Member says, with very little money for work in rehabilitation and educational work with inmates, and support. We should develop support systems for inmates after they are finished their term of incarceration. It seems to me that my view is communities that will provide that, and right now there is nothing in the budgets for work with communities, but, I think, that with communities like Coppermine inviting government to go and talk about how they can get involved, for instance, in sentencing, alternative sentencing systems for minors, for adult offenders, for women, for the youth, for the elders, then they will come up with suggestions that the Members are seeking. I do not think that we could attach it to the present system, since the large majority of aboriginal people are inmates in our jails, what we are doing is taking them away from people by a system that we never really had any involvement in as aboriginal people. Having justice administered from there, sending them to places like Yellowknife to serve a term, and then just sort of spit them back out, to land back in the community, as a Member pointed out, and is disowned. I think we cannot attach a community developed support system onto a system like that. I think it has to come from a system where a group of people at the community level say we want to get involved in the justice system as it relates to young people, and as it relates to adult offenders. One of the things they might negotiate with us is saying, we want some resources for a support system for inmates and people who are sentenced, and whether they are serving it at a community level, which I think they should, the discussion should take place at that level. So, in response to the Member's question, I think I am very interested in that, and a number of talks with individuals about it, and my suggestion would be that should be the approach that we take to it. Thank you.
Return To Question O778-12(2): Resources To Support Released Inmates
Question O778-12(2): Resources To Support Released Inmates
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 926
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Oral questions, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.
Question O779-12(2): Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 926
Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question to the Minister responsible for Renewable Resources. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister responsible in respect to the status of the N.W.T./Alberta Interim Water Quality Accord that is known as the trans-boundary water agreement. Can he advise this House as to whether that accord has been assigned, and whether or not there has been an agreement in place? Thank you.
Question O779-12(2): Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 926
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Mr. Allooloo.
Return To Question O779-12(2): Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Question O779-12(2): Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 926
Titus Allooloo Amittuq
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The draft agreement with Saskatchewan has been completed, and has recently been released for public consultation. Several revisions have been made as the result of public comments. To date, these revisions need to be discussed with Saskatchewan. As with respect to negotiations with Alberta, we are moving more slowly than with Saskatchewan. The Alberta government has told us that they will not finalize the trans-boundary water negotiations, or conclude the negotiations, until they have reached an agreement with British Columbia. As for British Columbia, we have at this point, no negotiations or negotiating criteria has not been devolved. Thank you.
Return To Question O779-12(2): Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Question O779-12(2): Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 926
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Supplementary, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.
Supplementary To Question O779-12(2): Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Question O779-12(2): Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 927
Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Seeing that the Minister has not accomplished a trans-boundary water agreement with Alberta, and these basic negotiations have been going on for a couple of years, I believe, recognizing the amount of pulp mills that are being developed in the south, the Minister's stand, and I believe the Government's stand, is zero discharge into northern waters in respect to pollution. I would like to ask the Minister what measures is he taking to insure the residents of the Northwest Territories that our water quality is being maintained, since he does not have an accord? Thank you.
Supplementary To Question O779-12(2): Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Question O779-12(2): Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 927
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Mr. Allooloo.
Further Return To Question O779-12(2): Status Of Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Question O779-12(2): Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 927
Titus Allooloo Amittuq
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. At this point in time, we have, our government has, very limited resources to monitor. What we have done so far is we have a working relationship with the federal government in terms of monitoring the Slave River. Also, we have agreement with the Government of Canada to do cooperative management of recording the ecosystem of the MacKenzie River Basin, and this work is continuing, and it has conducted a public workshops in Yellowknife in December to seek stakeholders input into eight drafts of the master agreement. At this point, we are relying on the information that the Federal Government is able to get on the monitoring system that is done in Slave River as well as Mackenzie River. Thank you.
Further Return To Question O779-12(2): Status Of Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Question O779-12(2): Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 927
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Oral questions, supplementary, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.
Supplementary To Question O779-12(2): Status Of Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Question O779-12(2): Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 927
Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha
Mr. Speaker, since the Minister has indicated that he has limited resources, is he indicating to this House that he is solely depending on the federal government for assistance in ensuring that the water quality is maintained at zero discharge of emissions from all these pulp mills that are being developed in the south? Thank you.
Supplementary To Question O779-12(2): Status Of Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Question O779-12(2): Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 927
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Mr. Allooloo.
Further Return To Question O779-12(2): Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Question O779-12(2): Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 927
Titus Allooloo Amittuq
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We are working with the federal government, but the federal government has responsibility at this point to come up with the resources to do the scientific monitoring system. Although we are working with the federal government, our government is not the main government that puts up the bill for the monitoring. Thank you.
Further Return To Question O779-12(2): Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Question O779-12(2): Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 927
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Item 5, oral questions. Supplementary, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.
Supplementary To Question O779-12(2): Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Question O779-12(2): Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 927
Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha
Mr. Speaker, is the Minister of Renewable Resources indicating to this House that the responsibility for the quality of water that is coming across the territorial borders into northern waters is the responsibility of the federal government? And that his Department is totally relying on the federal government to ensure that our quality is maintained for zero emission? Thank you.
Supplementary To Question O779-12(2): Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Question O779-12(2): Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 927
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Mr. Allooloo.
Further Return To Question O779-12(2): Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Question O779-12(2): Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 927
Titus Allooloo Amittuq
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I believe that the responsibility of ensuring that the water quality that is coming into the Northwest Territories is the responsibility of all governments. But, because of the limited resources, we are able to do limited work on the monitoring, and also we are working with departmental officials who have consulted with Justice and other jurisdictions involved. An information item will be provided to the Executive Council prior to announcing the G.N.W.T. position.
We are determining, at this point, Mr. Speaker, who is responsible and who should be footing the bill for monitoring and making sure that water quality does not lessen in the Northwest Territories.
Further Return To Question O779-12(2): Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Question O779-12(2): Trans-boundary Water Agreement
Item 5: Oral Questions
Page 927
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Time for question period has expired. Item 6, written questions. Item 7, returns to written questions. Item 8, replies to opening address. Item 9, replies to budget address. Item 10, petitions. Item 11, reports of standing and special committees. Item 12, reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 13, tabling of documents. Mr. Koe.
Item 13: Tabling Of Documents
Item 13: Tabling Of Documents
Page 927
Fred Koe Inuvik
Mr. Speaker, I would like to table, Tabled Document 88-12(2), an article from News/North dated Monday, August 31, 1992.
Item 13: Tabling Of Documents
Item 13: Tabling Of Documents
Page 927
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Item 13, tabling of documents. Item 14, notices of motion. Item 15, notices of motions for first reading of bills. Item 16, motions. Item 17, first reading of bills. Item 18, second reading of bills. Item 19, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters. Tabled document 9-12(2), Strength at Two Levels; tabled document 10-12(2), Reshaping Northern Government; motion 6, discussion on "Sobriety Clause in Contribution Agreements"; committee report 10-12(2), Special Committee on Constitutional Reform Report on the Multilateral Conference on the Constitution; tabled document 62-12(2), Report on the Northwest Territories Operations at Expo '92 as at May 31, 1992; Minister's statement 82-12(2), Update on National Constitutional Reform Negotiations; committee report 17-12(2), Report of the Review of the 1992/93 Main Estimates; Bill 33, Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1992-93, with Mr. Nerysoo in the Chair.
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 927
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. If I could call the committee to order. Members will recall that we were dealing with the review of the main estimates, the committee report 17-12(2), and Bill 33, Appropriation Act. Is it the wish of the committee that we continue with those reports?
-----Agreed
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 927
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Agreed. If Members recall we were on the item of general comments. After that reminder, I will take a 15 minute recess.
---SHORT BREAK
I would like to call this committee to order. When we concluded last night, we were dealing with general comments with regard to the budget. I would like to conclude that particular matter before we go on to Education. Are there any general comments? Then, if I might get into the matter of the report of the Standing Committee on Finance. I believe the item before us will be the Department of Education, and if I could ask the Minister if you have any general comments with regard to the budget item of Education. Mr. Minister.
Introductory Remarks For The Department Of Education
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 927
James Arvaluk Aivilik
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Legislative Assembly. As the new Minister responsible for Education, Culture and Employment Programs, I am pleased to present the 1992-93 main estimates for education.
Mr. Chairman, we are working hard to make our school system more responsive to the needs of our residents and, I believe, that people are developing a deeper commitment to schooling. Students are staying in school longer, and many who have left the system early are returning to continue their education. An increasing number of students, particularly aboriginal students, are going on to post-secondary education. Training programs such as the Apprenticeship Program and the Public Service Career Training Program continue to be well received. The number of full-time and part-time students enrolled in Arctic College has grown significantly in recent years.
Increased participation in education is a positive sign. This has been the result of specific initiatives of the partners in education and the department, and it is a necessary prerequisite for an effective educational system. Our ongoing work in developing indicators of educational outcomes, in collaboration with other ministries, other Departments of Education, and the Boards of Education will enable us to more effectively monitor the performance of the educational system.
We are well aware of and concerned about the depressed economic condition of the Northwest Territories, Canada, and, indeed, a good part of the world. With the increased participation of older students in the system, and the growing number of young children entering school, some forced growth expenditures in education have been unavoidable.
Today I present a budget that reflects the need to streamline and reduce, where possible, while maintaining the level of educational services available to northern residents.
Mr. Chairman, I would now like to highlight some of the main elements of the 1992-93 estimates, division by division.
1992-93 Main Estimates
The department's directorate and administration provides overall management and administrative support and recommends goals, objectives, and standards. In 1992-93, the directorate plans to continue to redraft the Education Act and to develop a strategic plan for education to the year 2010.
In 1982 a special committee of the Legislative Assembly completed the report "Learning, Tradition and Change in the Northwest Territories." These recommendations have guided the development of the education system over the last ten years. It is time to set new directions for the system that build on the framework provided in 1982.
Before we rush to change the educational system, we must know more clearly the questions that need answering and what kind of answers are acceptable to us, to our students, to our parents, and to our businesses. To start this process, I have sent Members of the Legislative Assembly a departmental report, "Our Students, Our Future: Planning for Success," which is a preliminary part of this planning exercise for schools. We intend to consult with education boards, and agencies, and the public, so we can work together to develop a strategy which will help us increase the quality and results of education programs and to meet new challenges.
I also recognize that the reshaping of our education system must be broad in scope, looking not only at kindergarten to grade 12, but also at the school to work transition, and at post-secondary education. If I am to serve the territories well as Minister, I need your advice and input to reshape our education system.
In 1992-93, the department will be reviewing programs and developing plans to increase the number of aboriginal educators in the workforce. To address the ongoing issue of language rights, a plan will be developed for the delivery of educational services to people holding rights under section 23 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Policy frameworks for senior secondary schooling and private training institutions will also be developed. The department will carry out functional reviews, and revise its organization to reduce spending, and to deliver programs more effectively. The directorate will see a decrease in expenditures for travel, contracts, and purchased services. This is reflected in a $60,000 decrease in the budget for other O&M.
The department will work closely with school boards to review school financing with respect to the impact of moving to monthly contribution payments, and to maintaining school quality.
The department will also complete a review and bring forward a directive on student busing in our school system for consideration as part of the school funding formula. We will also work to involve the school boards more fully in the process of planning to build new schools.
The department's schools branch is responsible for the delivery of school, special needs and residence programs; the development and implementation of an N.W.T. curriculum for K-9 schools; the implementation of senior high school curricula adapted from Alberta; and the delivery of training and professional support programs. Two school boards, eight divisional boards and a Board of Secondary Education are responsible for the delivery of school programs.
As I mentioned in my introduction, a good deal of the increase in the schools budget is forced growth due to the growing numbers of students coming into the system, and staying in the system longer.
For example, more students means we need more teachers in order to maintain the level of education. The number of teachers and classroom assistants required is calculated according to a formula based on enrolment from the previous year. Under this formula, another $1.4 million is required to fund 18.5 new teaching positions in 1992-93. The increase in enrolment also requires forced growth of $673,000 to increase the O&M and support staff for schools.
Other areas, such as special needs education, will require additional funding to meet projected increases in enrolment. Like other jurisdictions in Canada, schools in the N.W.T. are providing support for students with special needs so that they may be educated in regular classrooms with their peers.
While the increase in participation in the school system is encouraging, we would all like to see more students graduate from grade 12.
The research findings provided in the consultant's report, "Lessons for All," indicate that students would be more successful, and stay in school longer, if they pursued their studies in their home communities, with the support and encouragement of their families. By extending high school grades in selected communities, not only will we encourage students to stay in school, we will actually spend less per student, since we will not have to pay for accommodation in residences or home boarding.
However, because more students are expected to stay in the system, we project an overall cost increase of $975,000 for 1992-93. This is necessary if more students are going to complete secondary school. This initiative will help to build strong communities and enhance local accountability for education.
The increase in students entering regional high schools from smaller communities has put pressure on student residences and home boarding programs.
The department is obliged to fund student accommodation and to ensure this program provides effective student support and supervision. This year the department needs an additional $52,000 to operate residences. During 1992-93, the school's branch will take a number of steps to tailor school curriculum to the needs of our students. Support materials for the northern studies curriculum will be devolved and implemented in all the schools of the N.W.T. Work on the elementary Inuktitut curriculum will be started. Dene Kede, the new curriculum on Dene culture and language, is being piloted this fall. The divisional boards have identified five communities which will take part in this: Snowdrift, Fort Providence, Rae, Fort McPherson, and Yellowknife. English and social studies curriculum are to be implemented in the elementary grades, while the new sciences and industrial technology curriculum is to be introduced in junior high. We will also begin in June, a high school social studies curriculum. Despite the forced growth, we have identified some areas in which we can reduce costs. Since 1985, eight divisional boards of education have been developed. The last region to establish a divisional board was at South Slave, which came into operation in July of this last year.
While the boards were being established, the department provided support for the development. However, as divisional boards gained experience, and develop expertise in regions, the need for support has decreased. The department recommends that $50,000 allocated for board development be eliminated from the department's budget. The department will still provide services to assist in boards development where required. The total increase in school's activity from revised 1991-92 estimates to 1992-93 is five percent, or over $6 million. The advanced education grants of the department administers the N.W.T. Apprenticeship Program, Public Service Career Training Program, Training on the Job Program, Employment and Post-secondary School Financial Assistance Programs, monitors and sets standards for continuing education, as well as being responsible for providing advice to the Minister on direction and financing on Arctic College. As more students progress through the school systems, greater demand will be placed on Student Financial Assistance Program, to help them pay for secondary education. Although the number of non-aboriginal students receiving funding under the program has fluctuated slightly over the years, there has been a steady rise in numbers of aboriginal students receiving funding. In 1991-92, there was an increase of almost 13 percent. The department projects that aboriginal enrolment will increase by a further 15 percent in 1992-93. To help meet this need, the department is reducing the education leave, and Northern Leaders in Training Programs and proposing an increase over $1 million dollars to the Student Financial Assistance Program, which is accessed by a wider group of people.
Over the past two years, the Public Service Career Training Program has been restructured to place greater financial responsibility on the employing department. This has allowed advanced education to reduce its cost by $300,000. In cooperation with the G.N.W.T. Human Resources Development Committee, the department plans to review and restructure training programs and services to address government needs in a number of areas. In order to create more training opportunities for residents, the department is developing a strategy for using the government's capital projects to train northerners in the construction industry in partnership with the Department of Public Works and the N.W.T. Housing Corporation.
To further aid the development of a northern workforce, the department wishes to establish six regional career centres by providing resource materials and career counselling training. The department is negotiating a three year Labour Force Development Agreement with the federal government, which will provide $3.4 million for course delivery, and $2.2 million in training allowances for the Northwest Territories this year.
By working together with the federal government, and taking advantage of federal funding, we will improve the delivery of training and employment programs. Again, the department has looked for places to reduce costs. In the past, the department has entered into contribution agreements for labour force development projects with a variety of organizations. We proposed to discontinue these contributions as a cost saving measure. The advanced education activities has decreased one percent, or about $290,000 from the revised 1991-92 estimates.
Arctic College delivers adult and post-secondary education specifically geared for the northern workforce. The college offers technical, vocational, university transfer, basic skill upgrading, and literacy programs. These programs are offered at six campuses, in many communities throughout the Northwest Territories.
Mr. Chairman, I can report that the college has received over 700 applications this year for programs at Thebacha Campus. Other campuses report similar high numbers for applications. This shows an increasing number of people are looking to the college to provide them with the skills necessary to pursue further education and career opportunities. Over the years, some duplications of services has developed within the Arctic College system. There are a variety of reasons for this, including requests from clients for services at the local level, as well as historical precedent to maintain structures which are no longer cost efficient. In keeping with these times of restraint, it is proposed that the college reduce its expenditure by about $1.2 million over the next two years through reorganization. The department and college will work together to provide a planning and funding frame work for continuing education and training in the Northwest Territories. Arctic College will be a key partner in the development of long term strategy for education.
In conclusion, the current economic climate combined with increased pressure on the educational system, has created a number of challenges in this budget. We have attempted to reduce our costs where we can, and to put our resources into programs which benefit the greatest number of students. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Introductory Remarks For The Department Of Education
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 929
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. General comments, Standing Committee on Finance, Mr. Dent.
General Comments
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 929
Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On behalf of the committee, we wish to commend the department for recognizing the problems within the education system, and initiating the effort to put a plan together. We have to say that we are totally astounded to find when the process started, when the capital budget was first presented to us, that there was no plan. At least, there was not one that seemed to be very coherent and cohesive. So, it is a good start, but we have to recognize that it is a difficult task, and there is a diversity of opinion on how to bring about results, but still, if we are only getting 25 percent of the students who enter the education system graduating, compared to a national average of 70 percent, we have only got 33 percent of the civil service aboriginal, and with the government finding that it must still advertise for secretaries in the south, the current performance of the education system is unacceptable. I would like to point out, too, Mr. Chairman, that aboriginal people make up 58 percent of the population, and 72 percent of the school enrolment, but only five percent of aboriginal students who start school graduate from grade 12. I think that is a disgrace, Mr. Chairman, and something that has to be dealt with, and at the community level. We were totally surprised that the process is just getting under way now to come up with a strategy to deal with it. We realize that the external environment, parental alcohol abuse, overcrowded houses, sexual abuse, unemployment etc., has an adverse effect on children's ability to learn. We also recognize, when the Minister said the department is a small part of the partnership, that there are a lot of partners in education: the students; parents; teachers; and the school boards; etc., however, with a budget of about $200 million annually, the department has the resources and mandate to act as a leader and a catalyst to achieve greater results.
Motion 146-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 20
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 929
Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I move that this committee recommend that the Department of Education establish a goal in the 1993-94 main estimates of significantly increasing the number of students that enter the education system and graduate.
Further, that an objective be included in the 1993-94 main estimates to ensure that the quality of core subjects throughout the school system is uniform.
Motion 146-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 20
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 929
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. The motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Dent. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.
---Carried
General comments, Mr. Dent.
Motion 147-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 21
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 929
Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In line with the comments on the need for a strategy, I would further move that this committee recommend that the department complete the education strategy by October 1993, and that this strategy be
designed to significantly improve student success rates and fill northern job opportunities.
Motion 147-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 21
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 930
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. The motion is in order. To the motion. Ms. Cournoyea. To the motion. Mr. Dent.
Number of High School Graduates
Motion 147-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 21
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 930
Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Just a brief comment, Mr. Chairman. In 1985-86 we had better than 20 percent of the 18 year old population, by percentage in the Northwest Territories, graduating from high school. Since that year, we have never achieved the same level. It seems to me that this indicates that there is a real problem with the system. If we are spending as much money as we are, and we are not getting as many people to graduate as we did in the mid-80's, there is obviously something wrong.
I think it is very important that this strategy be developed, and that it be one that has really got some thought and some detail as to how it can be made to work, how the system can be made to work. Obviously, right now.
Motion 147-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 21
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 930
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
To the motion. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.
---Carried
General comments. Mr. Dent.
Report Of The Standing Committee On Finance
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 930
Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In 1990, the Minister of Education tabled the employment development strategy, which outlines three main thrusts to train northerners for present and future jobs, including labour market planning, employment support programs, and employment preparation programs. However, the committee fails to see the results of that strategy incorporated into the objectives listed in the 1992-93 Main Estimates.
Motion 148-12(2) To Adopt Recommendation 22
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 930
Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I move that this committee recommends that the Department of Education incorporate the results of the employment development strategy into the objectives of the 1993-94 Main Estimates.
Motion 148-12(2) To Adopt Recommendation 22
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 930
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. The motion is in order. To the motion. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.
---Carried
General comments. Mr. Dent.
Motion 148-12(2) To Adopt Recommendation 22
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 930
Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The committee is concerned that there is a lack of integration of high school and Arctic College. As a result, children are not being prepared in high school to proceed to Arctic College. There does not seem to be any development of career pathing.
Motion 149-12(2) To Adopt Recommendation 23
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 930
Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Therefore, I move that this committee recommend that the Department of Education ensure that the education strategy and Arctic College strategy be integrated by October, 1993.
Motion 149-12(2) To Adopt Recommendation 23
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 930
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. The motion is in order. To the motion. Ms. Cournoyea.
Arctic College
Motion 149-12(2) To Adopt Recommendation 23
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 930
Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput
I would like a clarification. I know that all of us have some concerns about the level of learning ability as people progress through the grade school system. I would like to clarify that the suggestion is that it be integrated with the Arctic College strategy. Is integrated the word that should be used, or made compatible, or more in line with? What about students who do not want to go to Arctic College, and they want to go to vocational school or a reasonably facsimile there of.
Is it fair to say that it should be only integrated with the Arctic College strategy, or is there more that we are looking at rather than that one link? Just clarification.
Motion 149-12(2) To Adopt Recommendation 23
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 930
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. Mr. Dent.
Motion 149-12(2) To Adopt Recommendation 23
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 930
Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The reason for this recommendation is that the government, the Department of Education, has control over these two bodies. It would seem that in the past, there has been no coordination, so that there has been no career pathing. Someone who is coming up through the education system leading to further education, which could be undergone or undertaken by Arctic College, does not seem to follow a coordinated path. Right now, we are providing some people with the opportunity to go to southern institutions, whether it is post-secondary, or vocational, but it seems that there is almost a stop at the high school door, rather than taking advantage of the opportunities we have to provide northerners with education by continuing within the system through the Arctic College system, which we are continually developing in the centres throughout the north.
It seemed to the committee, that Arctic College was working on its own, the Department of Education with K-12 was working on its own, and as the Minister of Education pointed out in his paper, in preparing people for employment in the 1990's which was tabled document 31-90(1), Arctic College remains the primary delivery system for adult education and training in the N.W.T. That means that anybody who has gone past grade 12 has Arctic College, that more of them will have Arctic College as their option, than any other option. The two should be put together. In the past they have not. They have been operating on a stand alone basis.
This government cannot, or this department cannot plan to integrate or coordinate programs with other institutions other than talking to them, and trying to make sure that people are prepared to go into them. We have an opportunity with the Department of Education having responsibility for both K-12 and funding Arctic College, to ensure that there is a broad career pathing plan developed.
Motion 149-12(2) To Adopt Recommendation 23
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 930
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. Mr. Todd.
Motion 149-12(2) To Adopt Recommendation 23
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 930
John Todd Keewatin Central
If I may add to that, Mr. Chairman, this would not preclude looking at other alternatives outside of Arctic College. This motion and the debate that took place within the standing committee was more directed towards Arctic College as Mr. Dent has said. Clearly, in our opinion, the discussions between high school and the Arctic Colleges, as far as we could see, outside of perhaps maybe Fort Smith, was very limited. That would not preclude, S.A.I.T, N.A.I.T. and certainly we would encourage others to look at these other institutions. In our experience there seemed to be no relationship between the high school, grade 10, 11 and 12, and what Arctic College was doing.
For example, when we spoke to some of the school principals, there was no liaison, not even any discussion between school principals and the V.P.s. It seemed to us to be absurd. There was no relationship between designing trades or vocational programs and jobs for kids who are in grades 9, 10, 11, and 12. That is what we are trying to accomplish here. Some kind of relationship that Arctic College plays a further role and complements the kids who are coming up the system.
It does not preclude students looking at alternatives outside of Arctic College.
Motion 149-12(2) To Adopt Recommendation 23
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 931
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
To the motion. Mr. Arvaluk.
Motion 149-12(2) To Adopt Recommendation 23
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 931
James Arvaluk Aivilik
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The way I seem to understand it, the motion should read to include Arctic College with other career training programs. Something along this line. Is that the way the motion is intended?
Motion 149-12(2) To Adopt Recommendation 23
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 931
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. Mr. Dent.
Motion 149-12(2) To Adopt Recommendation 23
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 931
Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Not precisely, Mr. Chairman. What we want to make sure is, that for people who could gain further education through Arctic College, the transition is made easiest. In other words, that Arctic College liaise with schools to make sure that people are aware of what their programs are. That they are being properly trained so that when they say they want to take a certain course at Arctic College, they have to know ahead of time what courses are prerequisites and that they have fulfilled all that they can at the high school level in order to ensure that when they make the next step into Arctic College, that it is easy. It is to try and facilitate further education in the north, through the Arctic College system.
Motion 149-12(2) To Adopt Recommendation 23
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 931
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. To the motion. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.
---Carried
General comments. Mr. Dent.
Motion 150-12(2) To Adopt Recommendation 24
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 931
Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The committee Members also expressed concern over the apparent lack of success that of the G.N.W.T. apprentice programs, that lead to full-time employment. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I move that this committee recommends that the Department of Education report on the success of G.N.W.T. apprenticeship programs that lead to full-time employment in the 1993-94 main estimates.
Motion 150-12(2) To Adopt Recommendation 24
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 931
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. The motion is in order. To the motion. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.
---Carried
General comments. Mr. Dent.
Motion 150-12(2) To Adopt Recommendation 24
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 931
Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The committee recognized a growing need for special needs education, due to such factors as fetal alcohol syndrome, for example. We cannot ignore the need for special education and care, however, we must also deal with the root causes and take preventative action.
The committee sensed a general frustration through the 1992-93 main estimates, that we were running out of fingers to plug the hole, when we were being flooded with serious requirements for help. There must be a change in attitude to focus on preventative action. We must stop building buildings, and start building people. For example, if we do not stop the parental alcohol abuse, what will the costs be ten years from now.
Motion 151-12(2) To Adopt Recommendation 25
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 931
Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I move that this committee recommends that the Department of Education, and the government as a whole, change its priorities and plans to focus on building human resources and not the acquisition of assets.
Motion 151-12(2) To Adopt Recommendation 25
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 931
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. The motion is in order. To the motion. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.
---Carried
General comments. Mr. Dent.
Motion 151-12(2) To Adopt Recommendation 25
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 931
Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Standing Committee on Finance also questioned the department on the requirement for the high level of administration expenditures in headquarters, given the creation of regional boards of education. The committee was also not convinced that six vice-presidents in Arctic College are effective.
Motion 152-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 26
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 931
Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I move that this committee recommends that the Department of Education review the senior administration requirements at headquarters and Arctic College campuses for the view to determining if there are any redundancies or savings possible by reducing them for the 1993-94 main estimates.
Motion 152-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 26
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 931
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. The motion is in order. To the motion. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.
---Carried
General comments. Mr. Dent.
Motion 152-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 26
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 931
Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There was some concern expressed at the Standing Committee on Finance meetings, about the Arctic College tendering procedures.
Motion 153-12(2) To Adopt Recommendation 27
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 931
Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I move that this committee recommends that Arctic College follow approved government procedure of the tendering of all contracts or that the responsibility be taken away from them.
Motion 153-12(2) To Adopt Recommendation 27
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 931
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. The motion is in order. To the motion. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed. The motion is carried.
---Carried
General comments. Mr. Dent.
Motion 153-12(2) To Adopt Recommendation 27
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 931
Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Standing Committee on Finance wishes to know what the department is going to accomplish with the money that is put into education and Arctic College programs.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 931
Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Therefore, I move that this committee recommends that the Department of Education report as a minimum, the following performance measurements in the 1993-94 main estimates.
- Trends and successful completion of grades 12, 10, 8, and Arctic College, including the percent of children who enter the education system, who successfully graduate from grade 12;
- Trends in the rate of illiteracy;
- An indication of the satisfaction of students, the public and education boards, with the education system;
- Student and parent participation rates;
- An indication of the performance of education boards; and
- Statistics of graduating students entering the workforce and the placement of more northerners in job opportunities.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 932
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. The motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Arvaluk.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 932
James Arvaluk Aivilik
Just a point of clarification, Mr. Chairman. There seems to be a contradiction between that recommendation and the recommendation to decrease the headquarters staff as much as possible, and the recommendation to increase the workforce in this case. I just want to make sure that there is no contradiction in that one.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 932
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. Mr. Dent.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 932
Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
I do not believe that the object of this reduction of senior staff is one which has to do with reporting on results. I think that results need to be reported at every level of the department. I do not think that it should be an onerous task to put those results into some kind of report form for consideration by this Assembly.
I would hope that the Minister does not believe that because of this recommendation, he recreate the Department of Statistics and develop a new statistical model, or go out and survey and do extensive sampling, in order to present us with these things. I would hope that there would be enough recognition, and that a lot of this can be provided by just ensuring that the results are reported through the various areas in the department right now.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 932
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. To the motion. Ms. Cournoyea.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 932
Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput
Just to add, one and two, we probably have that information. Number three would take some work to get that information. I do not think that would be something that we could take out of the system. The student and parent participation rates would depend on what you meant by student, but parent participation, we may not have that in the system. The indication of performance of education boards, I do not know how you would make the methodology of asking that question. Number six, is probably something that we can get out of our statistical, some of the education boards. I do not know how you would make the methodology of asking that question and number six is probably something that we can get out of our statistics, some of the areas are probably in the statistics bank already but some of them would take extra work. The issue is not only with the Department of Education on various areas, I think that we do have some of those statistics, but other areas we would not have in our bank of computer knowledge.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 932
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. Mr. Dent.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 932
Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For instance, an indication of the performance of the education boards might be how many students are graduating, how many students are attending. I suspect that the department has that information already. It is presenting it to us in a global fashion, but there is no reason that it could not be separated out by school district and presented. That would give us some indication of what the performance was of those education boards.
We have asked for an indication of satisfaction of students, public and education boards with the education system. I suspect you could ask the education boards for all of that information. You would probably find that it would not be that difficult to obtain. I suspect that most of the school districts or boards in the Northwest Territories now are doing some of this work on their own.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 932
An Hon. Member
(inaudible)
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 932
Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
I disagree, I think they are. We are not asking for a detailed statistical breakdown, we are asking for some indication.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 932
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. To the motion. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.
---Carried
That concludes the recommendations. Are there any other general comments with regard to the Department of Education and, if I might, is it the wish of the committee that we invite the witnesses into the committee?
---Agreed
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 932
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Mr. Sergeant-at-Arms, would you escort them in please? Thank you. Could I ask the Minister to introduce his witnesses?
Department Of Education
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 932
James Arvaluk Aivilik
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Left of me is Mr. Hal Gerein, Deputy Minister of Education, Culture and Employment Programs, and to my right is Paul Devitt, Director of Finance and Management.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 932
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. Are there any other general comments? Mr. Koe.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 932
Fred Koe Inuvik
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would just like to make a few comments on a couple of items related to the Department of Education. One of the concerns that we are experiencing in Inuvik, and this has happened in various communities over the years, is the procedure of determining the numbers of teachers needed from one year to the next.
For instance, this year in Inuvik we, all of a sudden, have an increase in students and not enough teachers. If someone from the department had asked me last spring, I would have told them this would have happened, but nobody asked me. Based on the research I have done it raised the question in my mind that if I knew, why would the Department not know. With all of the computers and knowledge and statistics we have on people in the system, our population base is not that big. There are 57,000 people, and I do not know how many are in our school systems that we can track to know who is coming up through the system and who is going to go into high school.
The procedure that is used, and correct me if I am wrong, is that enrolments rates are determined in the fall for the following year, and then the numbers of teachers required are based on that rate, almost a year ahead of time. There does not seem to be any flexibility in the system to adjust, and when September comes and all of a sudden the classrooms are bulging with more students than you have budgeted for, you have to go into a process of getting supplementary budgets or the department has to revise their budget. I would just like the officials to address that.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 933
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you, Mr. Koe. Mr. Minister.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 933
James Arvaluk Aivilik
Mr. Chairman, yes, that is true. We base enrolment procedure from the last year. However, if there is a need for adjustment because of unexpected increase then sometimes the board will have to handle that, if it is not too much. Otherwise, we have to go back to the Financial Management Board to get additional funding.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 933
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. Any other general comments? Mr. Koe.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 933
Fred Koe Inuvik
Yes. It does not address the issue of how you estimate, why do we all of a sudden excess amount of students show up in Inuvik? It seems like the department is not prepared for this influx of new students, it does not make sense to me. Maybe he could address that issue.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 933
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you, Mr. Koe. Mr. Minister.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 933
James Arvaluk Aivilik
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask the Deputy Minister what formula they use.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 933
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. Mr. Gerein.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 933
Gerein
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In some cases the enrolments are, indeed, up and in those cases we do need to go for supplementary resources. Most times, there is an opportunity for adjustment and the board is required to make adjustments across the schools within its divisional area because the student populations change from year to year.
There are cases, though, I believe, where the enrolments are unexpected when we end up with recovery of students coming back into high school, or into certain grades which are very difficult to forecast. So, it is a bit of a reactive situation, but in other situations the boards can benefit, in fact, from having monies based on their previous year's enrolment, because we do not go back, usually, and adjust it down.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 933
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. Mr. Koe.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 933
Fred Koe Inuvik
So, can I ask then, what steps are being taken to resolve the current crisis in Inuvik?
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 933
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 933
Gerein
Mr. Chairman, we will be receiving a recommendation from the board asking for the additional resources required, at which time we will have to go forward to our Financial Management Board to seek them. Thank you.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 933
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. Just for the purposes of addressing the matter of Mr. Koe, on the more specific items with regard to identifiable issues like schools and high schools, the questions could be better probably addressed in the detail. I just wanted to raise that point, because we are under general comments, do you have any general comments, Mr. Koe?
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 933
Fred Koe Inuvik
I will take your advice, Mr. Chairman. Under the departmental overview, and the alleged document, I know not by page by page you slapped my wrists again. I note that the department has a northern training and employment register called Enter. I also know that other agencies within the government have programs similar to enter federal and territorial departments. In Inuvik, the C.I.C. has their own computer log of people that they deal with, the native women have their log of people they deal with, advanced education had a system, and I know the territorial government has gone through several types of programs such as Enter. I guess my concern is that in Inuvik, and other regions across the north, where populations are so small, we are dealing with such a specific segment, and yet, everybody has their own log, or computer system, of the same people, and there is no integration. I am wondering if the department, along with other government agencies, are looking at trying to integrate these different systems so that we can go to any one agency, and they will have the same information on the individuals? It just does not make sense for every agency to have their own Enter system.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 933
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 933
James Arvaluk Aivilik
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, that is one of our main objectives, to integrate the advanced education management information system that Mr. Koe is talking about, a certain monitory and retracking system called S.M.A.R.T. A northern training and employment history entry apprenticeship and training services management system to improve program analysis compatibility and evaluation. We have that in our objective.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 933
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. General comments. Mr. Koe. Thank you. General comments, Mr. Todd.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 933
John Todd Keewatin Central
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess maybe I could be accused of being old fashioned, but I am not convinced that the amount of dollars that we have been expanding in the Department of Education, and the fact that we are getting 25 percent turn out is satisfactory.
I am not convinced that we should continue to spend enormous countless sums of money, and the building of schools -- last year I think it was $43 million dollars -- without some second opinions, and some second guessing as it relates to how successful that type of program is going to be.
It is incomprehensible to me, when I look at some of this statistical information as it relates to grade 12, that over a five year period in some of these communities, we have only generated some three or four successful graduates in grade 12.
Something is fundamentally wrong, and we have to ask ourselves that. I am not talking about spending less money. I am talking about, are we spending our money in the right way and the right manner, and is it getting the kind of results that we all want? Whether it is my kids, or your kids, we are all affected by the quality of education. Society as a whole is affected by it.
There are those of different opinion, and I believe on a number of occasions they have expressed it, particularly when I talk about my disappointment with the kind of return, if you want, for the investment. Clearly, in my opinion, anyway, we need to look very closely at what we are doing. The whole future of the north hinges upon an educated society, whether you are here, whether you are in Ontario, whether you are anywhere else in the free world.
Can I continue, with the kind of results we have got, and expect the other policies initiatives of this government to work, whether it is the Business Incentive Policy, or whether it is getting northerners into the jobs? You have got to go back to the basics, and we have to ask ourselves, "are we going to continue to spend $183 million on the one hand, $40 or $50 million on an annual basis for new infrastructure, $30 million for Arctic College?" This initiative affects us all, and all I am asking for is a debate on the issue. I do not want to be accused of being an education basher because I question what is going on, I have got a valid right here to ask a fundamental question. Is the education that our kids are getting, and the cost of this government, having the impact that we expect it to have?
In my opinion, it is not doing exactly that. Out of the 25 percent of kids that graduate out of grade 12, I would be interested to know how many are aboriginal, for example. How many come from the west, and how many come from the east? If we are going such a damn good job, excuse me, can somebody tell me how come all the outsiders in the government in my community keep getting the jobs? If we are doing such a good job, then how come we have not got the carpenters, the butchers, the bakers, and the candlestick makers? We are running out of time, Mr. Allooloo, and we are spending a lot of money trying to get results? We are simply running out of time. We need a review. We need to take a look at what is going on, and we need to ask, are we getting value for our money. It is not a question of reducing the budget. It is a question of looking at how we are spending it, and is it the acquisition of assets? Is it building buildings, or is it the building people, in my opinion, we should look into building people. We need to take a complete review of what is going on, and I believe that is being undertaken. We have already said to the new Minister, that we are prepared to give him that time, but it cannot go on forever. We have to find some ways and means to improve what we are doing out there in terms of the students, and our children, not just for today, but for tomorrow, and for the next day.
Just for the record, I have got to express, my kids were educated in Cambridge Bay, Rankin Inlet, Iqaluit, Pond Inlet, and Yellowknife. I have no objections to the school system in terms of teachers or infrastructure, but something is fundamentally wrong. I do not know what it is, but I am prepared to work hard to try to identify what it is. I tell you, as Chairman of the Standing Committee on Finance, I cannot continue to support large expenditures of money if we are not going to get a better return for our investment. Thank you.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 934
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. While I did not deal with the matter of language, I just asked the Members to be vigilant about their remarks and the words that they use in the Committee. Mr. Minister.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 934
James Arvaluk Aivilik
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is in the report. We agree 100 percent with Mr. Todd that the review was done in 1982, which I talked about in my opening remarks. This is 1992, ten years later. We are proposing that, in fact, we have asked S.C.O.F. to make a presentation on this and to debate the strategic plan that we are developing on this very issue that Mr. Todd is talking about. We completely welcome this debate that we can develop, not just here in the House, but also in the communities as to what would be the best way to fulfill these objectives that every one of us, I think, agree to.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 934
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
General comments. Mr. Antoine.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 934
Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to make a few general comments on education. I too, feel the same way as my colleague here, Mr. Todd, in regards to the education in the north, and also welcome the Minister's comment that there is going to be a review. I just want to say that the review should include everybody in the community that is concerned. Not only the education councils and the board members, I think everybody that has children and everybody who is interested in education should have an opportunity to participate in the review because there is major concern.
I have got some specific concerns about education. The grade extension that has happened in my constituency, in the community of Fort Simpson is welcome, and it has been what we have wanted to do for many years. As a result of that great extension, for your information, I have been told that in the high school, there are 95 students total. I think 17 of them are in grade 12. So, you know, it is 17 students that originally would have gone away from the community. These students are not all from Simpson, they come from the surrounding smaller communities.
What happens out of Simpson is that, formerly, in the past, students from the smaller communities, for example like Wrigley, would go to school in Simpson, and then when they were ready to go to high school they would move on to Yellowknife. So, they would do a double move before they had even finished their grade 12. As a result, a lot of students drop out in the meantime. It is one of the reasons, I feel, that this has happened. With the grade extension in Simpson, it provides, at least for the smaller communities, just one move away from the community, so it is an improvement on what has happened in the past.
I just want to also say that the school in Fort Simpson, there are more students enrolled this year than anticipated because they have got a higher number of grade 11s also enrolled from the surrounding communities. So, the funding that was allocated to them is not sufficient enough, and they have run into growing pains, growing problems. I certainly hope the Department would help them out and help them in paying for the education of the students there.
The other thing I want to mention, specifically in Fort Simpson, is quality of education. For years, I have been concerned about the quality of education that is provided to the students in the communities. The quality seems to be higher in Yellowknife than in the smaller communities. I do not know for what reason, the only reason I could think of is that the smaller communities are, again, ignored for the bigger centres.
It still exists today. Those kinds of concerns should not be left until a review is done because the reviews take a long time. Some concerns are very immediate in the smaller communities, and those should be addressed. I am talking about some of the people that fall through the cracks in the education system. There is quite a high number of dropouts from the smaller communities and some people are grown and have families now, they want to return to school, but they do not have the grade eight or whatever is required for adult education programs.
They do not have numbers in the smaller communities to warrant an adult educator in some of these communities. I was wondering if the Department of Education could become innovative, and look at different ways of approaching these problems by, let us say, having a roving adult educator using the modern technology of computer, or fax type of education. We are in this day of age where this could be accomplished, and that is another reason why I have been pursuing more telephone lines into Nahanni Butte, Trout Lake, and Jean Marie, because they do not have the technology to provide this type of distance education.
That is a twofold kind of approach why I have been pursuing more communication lines going into the smaller communities. The people who fall through the cracks there, I am really concerned about them. I think that if some sort of a plan would be developed to take care of them for, let us say it might take just a few years to scoop them up and upgrade enough so they could go into the regular system. Again, if the department could be innovative and look at different ways of trying to deal with these specific problems, I would really appreciate that.
A final specific problem that I have is that, it is kind of personal too in a way, in Simpson even though it is kind of a regional high school the grade eight and nine have been combined. There are students who have grade eight and grade nine are in the same room, and they take some courses that are the same, and some that are not the same. I went through the system and I know that grade nine and grade 10 are totally different. I am concerned that these students might not have the quality of education that they are entitled to by combining the grades.
They say that they do not have enough numbers, but I know that the total number is about 25, and if it has to do with policy, policies could be changed. If it is a designated regional high school at least each grade should have a teacher, irregardless of the numbers. There are all kinds of supporting arguments about why there should be two grades rather than a combination. Education is improving in my constituency ever since I have become aware of the communities. Back in 1972, I toured the communities in my region, in different capacities in my work, in community development, and I know that most of these communities have come a long way.
They still have to go quite a long way, yet. The present form of education is not adequate enough. Even though it has improved, I think there is a lot more room for improvement. We have very good teachers, very good staff in some areas, but still I think there is something wrong with the outcome. There are a lot of students going into the school system into kindergarten and grade one but very few graduating at the end. I am very concerned about that, and I think that is a priority for the department to look at how we could have more students graduating at the end with quality education. That, I think, should be the goal. That is all I have to say for now. Mahsi.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 935
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. Mr. Minister, do you have any remarks?
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 935
James Arvaluk Aivilik
Mr. Chairman, just a short one. In respect to qualitative education, that is completely debatable. We could debate from region to region, from divisional board to divisional board, because some people will consider qualitative education on the basis that we will, very smoothly, enter into post-secondary education from high school.
Other divisional boards and societies feel that qualitative education should include cultural programs and knowledges. That sometimes may not prepare them without additional lessons or credits to be taken in order to place them in the post-secondary. This is very much debatable.
Although we are using the standard that has been adopted, like, improve the quality of the education in the N.W.T., the quality of the education depends upon highly skilled teachers, quality curriculum, etc. This is, of course, the Department of Education's objectives. I am not here to judge what the quality of education is that Mr. Antoine is talking about because he has a very good case, whatever the quality of education is best suited for that particular region.
I would like to have that talked about more, especially in committee meetings and the public at home. In terms of distance education, I am very encouraged by Mr. Morin's statement this morning, that he has spoken to NorthwesTel to try to determine how the small communities Mr. Antoine is talking about, can be serviced with the telephone system. If that becomes a reality, then we probably, with the technology that we have now, can introduce distance education. Especially those who are in the higher grades, or who have dropped out of school, or wish to attend the adult education programs.
In terms of combining the grade eight and nine, or seven and eight, we fund the divisional boards on the per capita basis, per student basis. For example, $218 per student in O & M, and $78 for culture inclusion program, I am using this as a very small example. If there is eight grade eights and eight grade nines, then it is up to the divisional board how they would like to place those students because we place them only on the per capita basis, per student basis.
Again, how do we make the students successful in the area of completing high school from those who have enrolled in kindergarten or grade one to get them into grade 12. I think that I said during the S.C.O.F. meetings, that in order to have successful students, you cannot just drive the Department of Education to get successful programs, we agree that we should but it takes other concerned citizens, the parents, the society, of course the teachers, the leaders, and businesses. It takes everybody to have a successful education program, especially at the community level.
I cannot ask for more, other than it takes everybody, the department can finance it, the divisional board can administer it, but it takes society to make it successful. I cannot stress it any further than that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 935
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. General comments. Mr. Gargan.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 935
Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, last spring, one of the problems that I have been having is with regard to students repeating their grades. I have been looking at the N.W.T. average of students from K to nine, in that as the grades increase, as well as the number of students not promoted. It goes from 1985 to 1990, it seems that the students promoted and the students not promoted has not changed dramatically. The average is still the same. In Fort Providence, for example, in 1987, the kindergarten class was the only one that did not have any students that failed. However, in 1990-91, two students from the kindergarten class failed and one of them happens to be my son.
Mr. Chairman, he has failed again this year. The reason he failed this year is that he has not progressed enough to be advanced. What I am hearing is that in his second term, in kindergarten, this child did worse than he had done in the first year. How can that be possible? That is how I am reading it.
During the first year he was in school, the teacher advised us that he was not going to be promoted to first grade because she felt he may be given a harder time by older students or bigger students in the grade one class.
By repeating, he would be the bigger student in the kindergarten class. Having him repeat his grade for the third year in a row has made him the oldest and biggest student in the kindergarten class. I do not know where the problem lies and all that I intend to do is to have my son take, or be assessed by a psychologist to determine whether or not he does have a disability, dyslexia, a person that sees things backwards, numbers and letters backwards, or whether or not he has a hearing problem, or a vision problem.
I cannot believe that this normal child, in my opinion, has to repeat his grade for the third year in a row. In the event that, Mr. Chairman, there is absolutely nothing wrong, then I really have to question the methods in which students are graded, or the qualifications of those teachers teaching in those schools. The reason why I am saying this, I was told to visit the Principal and to talk to him, but what is the purpose of discussing it with the Principal, I am not too sure. I hope the qualification of those teachers is what I am basing most of the decisions that are made. I do not question their decision, it is on the basis of their advice, but when it comes to a student repeating his grade three years in a row, I really find that quite strange.
The other thing, Mr. Chairman, is that in the definition of objectives by the department, one of the things that it says here, is to participate in the national school achievement indicators program. Mr. Chairman, in my Member's statement back in the spring, I was really quite excited that they were going to have some kind of a national test that every student would be able to take. Based on those tests, we can say that, taken in kindergarten, the Northwest Territories stands at the national level, maybe second or third or maybe second or third below, it does not matter. I would like to know what the national indicators are because as far as the testing of the students go, Mr. Chairman, I find that what I go from the school in Fort Providence is that they have a check list and they check these lists off, to gauge the progress of your child, is that what they use, the terminology that they use. I do not know what that means, if he has got good attitude, it is a check, if he has got a bad attitude, he does not have a check. I do not know. I find that when I was going to school, Mr. Chairman, we used to have a test every week, a spelling test, a math test, and everybody stands, you make a mistake and you sit down. That kind of a thing, but it was fun. I enjoyed it, but I also knew where I was, whether I was the first to sit down or not.
---Laughter
I still knew where I stood within that group of students. If it meant that I should try better or to study harder, I was able to do that. However, I do not know what the testing methods are in the schools and I have asked on a number of occasions to the former Minister of Education about what they do in the schools to determine their grade level.
All the Minister has been able to do is give me averages of students promoted and students not promoted. He gave me the territorial average as well as the Elizabeth Ward average but he has not answered the question as to whether or not at the end of each school year, there is a test that is given to the student. I do not know that. I know that some of the teachers are saying that some students are operating at lower levels, even though they have been advanced, I am really curious about this. We have students in grade eight, but we also have students that are equivalent to grade three in grade eight. I do not know what is going on. In some cases, a student could be the worst student, but they are being advanced. In some other cases, students who maybe do not deserve to be advanced are not advanced, or deserved to be advanced are not advanced.
I do not know, there is a double standard. I see it quite clearly. I do not know, maybe, being the son of a M.L.A. might have something to do with it. I still am very interested, Mr. Chairman, in finding out whether or not we have weekly examines, weekly tests, monthly examines, or every three months there is an examine. I want to know because I believe that most of the promotion or the advancement of students, the determining factor is not really whether or not they are smart or they have academic achievement, but rather is determined by whether or not the qualified teacher feels that the student should advance or not. I am really curious. I want that answer.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 936
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. Mr. Minister, did you have any remarks to make.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 936
James Arvaluk Aivilik
A very short one. Mr. Gargan is talking about two things. School achievement indicator program and school inclusive program. On the first one he was talking about, perhaps it is not a general comment. It is a rather private and specific one, I would invite Mr. Gargan to step outside.
---Laughter
He should meet with me privately and we could deal with that particular issue, I know what he is talking about and I do not want to respond to it here because it is specific to him.
As far as the inclusive schooling, there are grade three students, or grade five students with grade eight students in the small class, because they are the same age group, going to school with their peers. They are not necessarily being demoted or anything like that. They are in grade three and they will be in grade three for that year until they pass, but it is this all inclusive schooling policy has been developed that the older kids are not going to school in the same grade six students of a much younger students, this is a matter of respecting their age group.
As far as the school achievement indicator program, I think, I should tell you a little background on this one. In the spring of 1989, the Council of Ministers of Education Canada undertook the development of the program designed to collect information that will help jurisdictions determine how effective their education systems are. Two types of indicators of school effectiveness are being developed. These first will show the involvement of young people in the education system as reflected in the participation, retention and graduation rates.
The second group of indicators will provide information about the achievement of the students at the age of 13, and 16, in the areas of reading, writing, and mathematics. So, what it simply means is this, with this indicator program we will find out where our students are, some of the selected students are. That will hopefully show us generally as to what the Department of Education is failing, or not doing enough, and where it can improve itself. Is the curriculum too hard? Is it too easy? Is it not making the student achieving the level of quality of education that is required by government policy, or the education policy? This is to help the department formulate what we can improve on in education.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 936
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you, general comments, Mr. Gargan.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 936
Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
I do want to step outside. Mr. Chairman, disregarding my own personal situation, the statistics are numbers, so based on that, what I am saying is that I do not have anything. In order to resolve this, I have to be satisfied that I have testing material of whatever level it is to then say that this is the testing material that was used for the grade six or the grade eight or whatever the case may be, but I do not see that, and that is what my concern is. At the end of each year, students in Fort Providence, or parents in Fort Providence, go to Elizabeth Ward School, and they show them the report card, but they do not show them anything as a result of how they determined how the student did compared to other
students. This is my concern. I could not see anything that says that so, I always question then, how do they do like that? How in could he fail, or how in could he advance?
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 937
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Just remind the honourable Member to ensure that his words are properly used. Thank you.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 937
Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Oh, yes, I am sorry about that. My apologies. What is the determining factor, I guess, in determining how the students advance, or do not advance? Now that is where my concern is, because I have got no indicators, and I always question how you fail, and so can the Minister enlighten me on this, because I believe I have a concern that perhaps parents or Members would have. If we do not have a testing system, how do we determine if students advance or do not advance?
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 937
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 937
James Arvaluk Aivilik
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think because of the way it is arranged, that I would like to have Mr. Gerein to answer how it is dictated.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 937
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. Mr. Gerein.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 937
Gerein
Mr. Chairman, the achievement of each student, and we should have prescribed in each set of curriculum documents pertaining to each subject offered at that grade level. We can provide the honourable Member with the information that he is asking for in terms of kindergarten, grade one, and so on, in terms of actual material presented to the students for learning, and what kind of levels they need to achieve in order to progress a year at a time through the system. Thank you.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 937
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. Mr. Gargan, general comments.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 937
Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
So, Mr. Chairman, in what you are saying, your response, tells me then that we do not really have any type of testing system. We have material, based on a checklist on whether he has completed this book, and if he completed this book good, you can check it off, and it goes to the next book sort of a thing, as opposed to having maybe ten kindergarten students take a similar test on all the skills that they learned through the years, to determine whether they advance or not.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 937
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 937
James Arvaluk Aivilik
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, Mr. Gargan is right. We have the same materials for everyone, but we have different methods of examining or testing, which have been designed by the teachers. I suppose what you are asking really for is the department to type exams rather than individual school exams. If that is the case, then that is open for discussion with the division of the board, I guess. Mr. Chairman, just before I go on, or conclude with that statement, I believe that you have requested to have my presentation be distributed to Members. If you want, I can do that. Thank you.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 937
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you, Mr. Minister. General comments, Mr. Gargan.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 937
Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Thank you. I would think that perhaps the most important part of entering into the education system is a kindergarten class, the most important class. This is where you determine the future of this child. Anything that happens within the class will not be noticed by the child, and whether you call it advancement, or promotion, it is going to be also observed by the young mind. How do you determine if we do not have any kind of testing methods, the level of achievement, with the special needs of a student. You can fool some people some of the time, but you cannot fool people all of the time. I am just wondering, if a child is to repeat a grade, or repeat it repeatedly, how do you determine whether or not there is something wrong with the child? Do you determine that at the beginning of the year, so that you do not have to run it through a situation where maybe a child has problems and maybe some other learning method would be suitable? How do you determine that?
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 937
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 937
James Arvaluk Aivilik
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Since this is being developed, maybe before my time I would like Mr. Gerein to answer that one again.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 937
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Mr. Gerein.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 937
Gerein
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We are prepared to spend as much time as necessary with the honourable Member to explain the details of the education system at the kindergarten level so that he may gain a full understanding of what is going on as he approaches a local education authority to deal with the progress of his child. I think that would be worthwhile in itself.
Mr. Speaker, the teachers use a variety of testing methods. They are professionals, we do not prescribe the tests at the grade one levels. I believe we have some kind of standardized testing at grade three, six, nine and 12, but we do not prescribe the examination of testing methods between those levels. We try to do something more common in order that we can assess progress across the Territories at grades three, six, nine and 12. Thank you.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 937
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. Mr. Gargan.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 937
Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Yes. Okay. If, Mr. Chairman, standardized testing is done from grade three, six or nine, or whatever grade, starting from grade three, Mr. Chairman, I would like to know, from K to two then, what are the testing methods or criteria used to determine whether or not a student advances or whether or not there is a learning disability. Or, if he does not advance, whether or not there are some problems that cannot be determined by the teacher.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 937
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 937
James Arvaluk Aivilik
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes. A very quick answer to anything before grade three is that in some schools there are exclusive aboriginal programs so you can not really standardize everything throughout the Northwest Territories. However, in grade three and even before you get into grade three, every day determines anything unusual about that particular student. If there are indications somewhere, then, of course, the parents are called by the teacher and the principal and they discuss if the parents notice, even at home, if there is a possibility of a learning disability.
This is done every day, and is the only test for that. These are done according to how, for example, that student is receptive to the arrangement in comparison to other students. Thank you.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 937
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. General comments, Mr. Gargan.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 937
Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Yes, I think I will just keep the general comments from being too specific here, Mr. Chairman. The Minister has not answered my question, but I will get back to
it when we get into the details. One of the things that, with regard to the objectives of the school, is in regard to the community-based leadership projects in all official languages, is the aboriginal language literacy program.
All of that is really part of the departmental overview. One of the concerns I have, all Members have, is we have more student failures than, perhaps, there are successes. I think that some of the Members indicated that, in five years, some students in certain regions have not graduated. I think they have been quite disturbed by the trends in their constituencies, Mr. Chairman.
One of the things that I wanted to mention is that we seem to respond to educational issues by having parent participation, and try to resolve it through, maybe the local education authorities, or committees, or boards. But, one of the responsibilities, I believe, of the communities and I have expressed that time and time again, is that the culture, the language, the music, the stories of aboriginal people, should be the responsibility of the aboriginal people themselves in the communities. Not the schools.
I truly believe in that. Once we concentrate more on the basic curricula, the math, the science, the social studies, the spelling, the main subjects, I believe there is going to be an improvement. But also one of the difficulties, I find, is that students going to school right now go to the same building day in and day out, year in and year out, and so, they are in the same environment to study what is called aboriginal culture and those sort of programs, and also what is required to advance according to the non-native people. But if that student was to have the requirements to complete grade 12 and these subjects and we leave the responsibility of cultural aboriginal language programs etc., to the community, I believe it will also give the students an opportunity to get out of that educational institution and go to another type of environment to study their own languages.
As far as I am concerned, when I go into a school, whether I am an M.L.A. or not, it is still a white institution, and I feel like a second class citizen in that institution and I am sure that a lot of students feel that way too. On Friday, I listened to a program regarding disciplining students. There were comments on what is happening with the students and why we are having so many problems. I have been listening to the commentaries on it too, from principals who are basically white with white, middle class views, thinking that they have the answers to the disciplining of aboriginal people.
I say that there is not a disciplinary problem. There is a lot of cultural difference. The cultural difference is what the discipline is all about, because if you do not meet the white, middle class standards then you need to be disciplined into those areas. Before the coming of the Europeans, the aboriginal people were nomadic people, they moved with the animals, they moved for other things. They were more adapted to their surroundings, we adapt to the surroundings. I think that has been the difficulty for aboriginal people.
Time does not control you, but if you are in school that is what you live by, time, efficiency, and expectations. Not a clock, when the bell rings, that is time for you to get in so everything is sort of done time wise.
I do not see any disciplinary problems, Mr. Chairman, I think that the more that a non-native person knows about a native person, and vice versa, perhaps we might be able to have a smoother operation of a school. That is not the situation at this point in time. We do not have any aboriginal curriculums, very little of it, if any, we do not have any aboriginal history, it is all European history.
If European history is something that wants to be taught in the schools, so be it. I think that you should allow the aboriginal people to also teach their own child, in the classroom environment, their history. I think that we have a lot to contribute.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 938
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. Mr. Arvaluk.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 938
James Arvaluk Aivilik
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I know that there is legislation on school attendance, number of school days per year, but there is no legislation on cultural omission or omission on the cultural inclusion, like Mr. Gargan is suggesting. Until such time as the legislation is introduced and acted upon, then the cultural programs will be determined from the recommendation of the individual schools to the divisional board. The Department of Education cannot determine what should be excluded from school. I understand and appreciate Mr. Gargan's concern that cultural inclusion should not be taught in school, but should be taught by the parents. However, in some areas of the N.W.T., they are saying that there should be more cultural inclusion in the schools, so I do not think that we will ever really be able to come up with a consensus as to what should be taken as part of the curriculum, or what should be excluded from there. That is why we have these divisional boards and the community education councils active in the communities, and in the regions, specific to those areas. It is not like the old system, even the present system of the territorial government, or the regional offices. In traditional areas like Kitikmeot, Beaufort, Sahtu, South Slave, etc., it will make it easier for those regions to develop their curriculum for their particular schools.
The only answer I could give Mr. Gargan, is that there is no legislation, however there is a policy for divisional boards to determine what is the best for their own area as far as cultural inclusion programs are concerned.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 938
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. Mr. Gargan, general comments.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 938
Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, cultural programs have only been introduced in the education system, perhaps within the last 10 to 15 years. When I went to school there were no cultural programs. It was strictly the European style of education system. I have been successful in completing all my grades, perhaps, because I was not expected to learn two different cultures and try to exercise them. I do not know. I would think that is one of the determining factors.
It is not up to us to decide what the committees should have in the areas of education, or cultural programs. I think, Mr. Chairman, that we, as politicians, should be able to say that we do have two very different cultures, and having them in one institution and delivered in that one institution does cause for confusion of the students.
I would think that the parents taking responsibility for the culture is good, but I think we should allow the communities to take cultural programs, and have it so that they have their own institutions to teach those programs and the European programs allow them to be in the existing schools as it is now.
We do have two valued systems, two very different cultures, and I do not think that right now, if I go to the school in Fort Providence, 99 percent of the material there is going to be all, non-aboriginal. What we have in the delivery of cultural programs are strictly just token programs, second class programs, or down graded programs. I am saying that if you allow the communities to take on those programs, the professors are all there in the communities, they are the professionals, they know the values of the Dene, they know the stories of the Dene people, the music, the history, and the practices.
It is not a matter of trying to shape, but trying to guess on what really is the Dene culture. I am sure whenever some of these programs are delivered a lot of imagination and a lot of guess work takes place. If you allow the communities to control those programs, I would think that they would do a 100 percent efficient job. It would be delivered 100 percent by the communities as opposed to what we have now, that is any given classroom, I do not know what the requirements are, and as the Minister said, Mr. Chairman, it is determined by the local education authorities. It would vary right across the territories.
My position is, I think this is one area in which, even in the Education Act, you should be able to say, yes, these are the subjects and these are the laws governing those students. It is required, or compulsory for them to take these subject courses in order for them to advance. On the other hand, the communities could be responsible for the cultural component of those programs. In other words, a child would have to get out of school and go to a community centre, a community hall, the adult education centre, or the friendship centre. They would go to a different environment to study their own culture.
I think that there is a lot of confusion here, because if we allow the local education authorities, or boards or committees, to determine that, yes, it would vary from community to community, to region, to territory, to provinces. It would vary. I think that we should be able to say, in order for us to achieve good standards of education, these are what we have to do. One of the steps that we should be taking is allowing the communities to take control of aboriginal programs, which they should be experts on. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 939
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 939
James Arvaluk Aivilik
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a very short one on that, I guess. We have resource centres for teaching materials. I think we have spent approximately $1.7 million on aboriginal resource materials. However, the community will determine how to utilize the cultural programs, it is really up to the divisional boards, it is not up to the department.
If the community feels that the responsibility for teaching aboriginal language or cultural programs, or land skills, should be done by the community as a whole rather than school, then that can be arranged through divisional boards. There is no legislation preventing the aboriginal groups from taking specific programs in the cultural inclusion program, there is none. We are using school because that is part of the cultural inclusion program and it is up to the divisional boards to assess their program. If it is not working, then find some other ways of doing it. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 939
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. General comments, Mr. Gargan.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 939
Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Mr. Chairman, yes, I do agree that it is up to the education authorities to determine what should be delivered in the school, and that is exactly my problem. It has never allowed the communities to determine that.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 939
An Hon. Member
(inaudible)
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 939
Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Well, yes, through election, yes. For the last eight years, the local education authority has been put in by acclamation. In other words, the first batch is out of office, a new batch comes in, but there is never enough to determine, or allow the communities to have an election. But, that is not my point. My point is that the majority of the Members here are aboriginal people who do have aboriginal aspirations. One of my main priorities, as a Member, is that I dream of one day controlling my own destiny, my own culture, my own music, my own stories, my own aboriginal programs.
That is not happening. We are still allowing, under the Education Act, the creation of boards governed by the Education Act to determine what is best for the communities, never allowing the communities the opportunity to take on programs that are primarily their responsibility. This is not a question of boards determining that, it is a question of whether or not the will of this House is there to allow something like this to happen.
We can use local education authorities as a scapegoat to determine that, but we still have not addressed the issue of whether or not, Mr. Minister, you find that having other people teach your culture is good for you. Well, it is not good enough for me. I cannot allow that to happen. So, as aboriginal people in this House, we should be able to say that the responsibility of the education of cultural programs, whether it is music, stories, songs or whatever the case may be, should be the responsibility of the communities, not the local education authorities.
They are the ones that should decide whether or not they will delegate it to the local education authorities to determine. The way it is now, I do not think the local education authorities will ever allow the communities to take on those programs. I have not seen it happen in my lifetime as a Member.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 939
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 939
James Arvaluk Aivilik
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. No, I am not using any scapegoat, but, I do not know the difference between the education society, or council, coming from the community and not being a member of the community at the same time.
The department cannot, under the present Education Act, dictate what should be excluded from the school. For example: math, cultural inclusion, land skills, English. We cannot say they should not be in there. The Education Act is under review now, hopefully the honourable Member will participate in determining how the Education Act will be amended. We are hoping and working hard to get that done by 1994. But, it will need your input and one of the inputs can be exactly what Mr. Gargan is talking about. But, until such time as the Education Act is amended through this House, we have no authority to exclude, or override the divisional boards under the Educational Act.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 939
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you. General Comments, Mr. Gargan.
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 939
Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I cannot wait until 1994. I have a difficult time as it is trying to convince the Minister that one of the difficulties students are having right now is, against aboriginal students and I am sure the same thing applies if a non-native student was to go into a cultural program, there is a vast difference between the two cultures the way it has been practised and the way it has been implemented.
When you allow a young child aged 13 to 16 having to make a choice between two value systems, it is pretty hard and pretty confusing. Mr. Chairman, yes, education, but the learning methods, the value systems are different. The Minister, of all people, should know that.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to report progress and continue again tomorrow, if I may?
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 940
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
The motion is in order, and not debatable. To the motion. All of those in favour? All of those opposed? Motion is carried.
---Carried
Motion 154-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation 28
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 940
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Item 20, report of the committee of the whole, Mr. Chairman.
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Page 940
The Chair Richard Nerysoo
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Your committee has been considering reports 17-12(2) and Bill 33, and wishes to report progress with nine motions being adopted, and Mr. Speaker, I move that the report of the chairman of the committee of the whole be concurred.
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Page 940
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Is there a seconder to the motion? Mr. Dent. Motion is in order. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.
---Carried
Item 21, third reading of bills. Item 22, Mr. Clerk, orders of the day. Oh, excuse me, Mr. Clerk. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Page 940
Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha
Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to return to Members' statements, please.
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Page 940
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to return to Members' statements. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please continue, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.
Presentation To The Clerk
Revert Back To Item 3: Members' Statements
Page 940
Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha
Thank you very much. I did not make one today. Mr. Speaker, I have the floor, and on behalf of the ordinary Members, I think it is only appropriate that we show our expression of appreciation to Mr. Hamilton who has given us many good years of service. I would like to present him with a small token of appreciation on behalf of the Members, and due to government restraint, unfortunately unable to wrap it up very nice and shiny.
---Applause
Presentation To The Clerk
Revert Back To Item 3: Members' Statements
Page 940
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
On behalf of Mr. Hamilton, I say thank you.
---Singing
---Applause
I am not sure where in the rules there is a place to sing that song. It is probably out of order, but nonetheless, item 20, Mr. 44-year old.
Item 22: Orders Of The Day
Item 22: Orders Of The Day
Page 940
Clerk Of The House Mr. David Hamilton
Mr. Speaker, there will be meetings of all the committees tonight starting at six. Meetings tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m. of the Standing Committee on Finance, also at 9:00 a.m. on the Standing Committee on Legislation, at 10:30 a.m. of the Ordinary Members' Caucus, Orders of the Day for Wednesday, September 16, 1992:
1. Prayer
2. Ministers' Statements
3. Members' Statements
4. Returns to Oral Questions
5. Oral Questions
6. Written Questions
7. Returns to Written Questions
8. Replies to Opening Address
9. Replies to Budget Address
10. Petitions
11. Reports of Standing and Special Committees
12. Reports of Committees on the Review of Bills
13. Tabling of Documents
14. Notices of Motion
15. Notices of Motion for First Reading of Bills
16. Motions
- Motion 31
17. First Reading of Bills
18. Second Reading of Bills
19. Consideration in Committees of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
- Tabled Documents 9-12(2)
- Tabled Document 10-12(2)
- Motion 6
- Committee Report 10-12(2)
- Tabled Document 62-12(2)
- Minister's Statement 82-12(2)
- Committee Report 17-12(2)
- Bills 33 and 9
20. Report of the Committee of the Whole
21. Third Reading of Bills
22. Orders of the Day
Item 22: Orders Of The Day
Item 22: Orders Of The Day
Page 940
The Speaker Michael Ballantyne
This House stands adjourned until 1:30 p.m. Wednesday, September 16, 1992.
---ADJOURNMENT
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