Yes, I think I will just keep the general comments from being too specific here, Mr. Chairman. The Minister has not answered my question, but I will get back to

it when we get into the details. One of the things that, with regard to the objectives of the school, is in regard to the community-based leadership projects in all official languages, is the aboriginal language literacy program.

All of that is really part of the departmental overview. One of the concerns I have, all Members have, is we have more student failures than, perhaps, there are successes. I think that some of the Members indicated that, in five years, some students in certain regions have not graduated. I think they have been quite disturbed by the trends in their constituencies, Mr. Chairman.

One of the things that I wanted to mention is that we seem to respond to educational issues by having parent participation, and try to resolve it through, maybe the local education authorities, or committees, or boards. But, one of the responsibilities, I believe, of the communities and I have expressed that time and time again, is that the culture, the language, the music, the stories of aboriginal people, should be the responsibility of the aboriginal people themselves in the communities. Not the schools.

I truly believe in that. Once we concentrate more on the basic curricula, the math, the science, the social studies, the spelling, the main subjects, I believe there is going to be an improvement. But also one of the difficulties, I find, is that students going to school right now go to the same building day in and day out, year in and year out, and so, they are in the same environment to study what is called aboriginal culture and those sort of programs, and also what is required to advance according to the non-native people. But if that student was to have the requirements to complete grade 12 and these subjects and we leave the responsibility of cultural aboriginal language programs etc., to the community, I believe it will also give the students an opportunity to get out of that educational institution and go to another type of environment to study their own languages.

As far as I am concerned, when I go into a school, whether I am an M.L.A. or not, it is still a white institution, and I feel like a second class citizen in that institution and I am sure that a lot of students feel that way too. On Friday, I listened to a program regarding disciplining students. There were comments on what is happening with the students and why we are having so many problems. I have been listening to the commentaries on it too, from principals who are basically white with white, middle class views, thinking that they have the answers to the disciplining of aboriginal people.

I say that there is not a disciplinary problem. There is a lot of cultural difference. The cultural difference is what the discipline is all about, because if you do not meet the white, middle class standards then you need to be disciplined into those areas. Before the coming of the Europeans, the aboriginal people were nomadic people, they moved with the animals, they moved for other things. They were more adapted to their surroundings, we adapt to the surroundings. I think that has been the difficulty for aboriginal people.

Time does not control you, but if you are in school that is what you live by, time, efficiency, and expectations. Not a clock, when the bell rings, that is time for you to get in so everything is sort of done time wise.

I do not see any disciplinary problems, Mr. Chairman, I think that the more that a non-native person knows about a native person, and vice versa, perhaps we might be able to have a smoother operation of a school. That is not the situation at this point in time. We do not have any aboriginal curriculums, very little of it, if any, we do not have any aboriginal history, it is all European history.

If European history is something that wants to be taught in the schools, so be it. I think that you should allow the aboriginal people to also teach their own child, in the classroom environment, their history. I think that we have a lot to contribute.

Thank you. Mr. Arvaluk.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I know that there is legislation on school attendance, number of school days per year, but there is no legislation on cultural omission or omission on the cultural inclusion, like Mr. Gargan is suggesting. Until such time as the legislation is introduced and acted upon, then the cultural programs will be determined from the recommendation of the individual schools to the divisional board. The Department of Education cannot determine what should be excluded from school. I understand and appreciate Mr. Gargan's concern that cultural inclusion should not be taught in school, but should be taught by the parents. However, in some areas of the N.W.T., they are saying that there should be more cultural inclusion in the schools, so I do not think that we will ever really be able to come up with a consensus as to what should be taken as part of the curriculum, or what should be excluded from there. That is why we have these divisional boards and the community education councils active in the communities, and in the regions, specific to those areas. It is not like the old system, even the present system of the territorial government, or the regional offices. In traditional areas like Kitikmeot, Beaufort, Sahtu, South Slave, etc., it will make it easier for those regions to develop their curriculum for their particular schools.

The only answer I could give Mr. Gargan, is that there is no legislation, however there is a policy for divisional boards to determine what is the best for their own area as far as cultural inclusion programs are concerned.

Thank you. Mr. Gargan, general comments.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, cultural programs have only been introduced in the education system, perhaps within the last 10 to 15 years. When I went to school there were no cultural programs. It was strictly the European style of education system. I have been successful in completing all my grades, perhaps, because I was not expected to learn two different cultures and try to exercise them. I do not know. I would think that is one of the determining factors.

It is not up to us to decide what the committees should have in the areas of education, or cultural programs. I think, Mr. Chairman, that we, as politicians, should be able to say that we do have two very different cultures, and having them in one institution and delivered in that one institution does cause for confusion of the students.

I would think that the parents taking responsibility for the culture is good, but I think we should allow the communities to take cultural programs, and have it so that they have their own institutions to teach those programs and the European programs allow them to be in the existing schools as it is now.

We do have two valued systems, two very different cultures, and I do not think that right now, if I go to the school in Fort Providence, 99 percent of the material there is going to be all, non-aboriginal. What we have in the delivery of cultural programs are strictly just token programs, second class programs, or down graded programs. I am saying that if you allow the communities to take on those programs, the professors are all there in the communities, they are the professionals, they know the values of the Dene, they know the stories of the Dene people, the music, the history, and the practices.

It is not a matter of trying to shape, but trying to guess on what really is the Dene culture. I am sure whenever some of these programs are delivered a lot of imagination and a lot of guess work takes place. If you allow the communities to control those programs, I would think that they would do a 100 percent efficient job. It would be delivered 100 percent by the communities as opposed to what we have now, that is any given classroom, I do not know what the requirements are, and as the Minister said, Mr. Chairman, it is determined by the local education authorities. It would vary right across the territories.

My position is, I think this is one area in which, even in the Education Act, you should be able to say, yes, these are the subjects and these are the laws governing those students. It is required, or compulsory for them to take these subject courses in order for them to advance. On the other hand, the communities could be responsible for the cultural component of those programs. In other words, a child would have to get out of school and go to a community centre, a community hall, the adult education centre, or the friendship centre. They would go to a different environment to study their own culture.

I think that there is a lot of confusion here, because if we allow the local education authorities, or boards or committees, to determine that, yes, it would vary from community to community, to region, to territory, to provinces. It would vary. I think that we should be able to say, in order for us to achieve good standards of education, these are what we have to do. One of the steps that we should be taking is allowing the communities to take control of aboriginal programs, which they should be experts on. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a very short one on that, I guess. We have resource centres for teaching materials. I think we have spent approximately $1.7 million on aboriginal resource materials. However, the community will determine how to utilize the cultural programs, it is really up to the divisional boards, it is not up to the department.

If the community feels that the responsibility for teaching aboriginal language or cultural programs, or land skills, should be done by the community as a whole rather than school, then that can be arranged through divisional boards. There is no legislation preventing the aboriginal groups from taking specific programs in the cultural inclusion program, there is none. We are using school because that is part of the cultural inclusion program and it is up to the divisional boards to assess their program. If it is not working, then find some other ways of doing it. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. General comments, Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Chairman, yes, I do agree that it is up to the education authorities to determine what should be delivered in the school, and that is exactly my problem. It has never allowed the communities to determine that.

(inaudible)

Well, yes, through election, yes. For the last eight years, the local education authority has been put in by acclamation. In other words, the first batch is out of office, a new batch comes in, but there is never enough to determine, or allow the communities to have an election. But, that is not my point. My point is that the majority of the Members here are aboriginal people who do have aboriginal aspirations. One of my main priorities, as a Member, is that I dream of one day controlling my own destiny, my own culture, my own music, my own stories, my own aboriginal programs.

That is not happening. We are still allowing, under the Education Act, the creation of boards governed by the Education Act to determine what is best for the communities, never allowing the communities the opportunity to take on programs that are primarily their responsibility. This is not a question of boards determining that, it is a question of whether or not the will of this House is there to allow something like this to happen.

We can use local education authorities as a scapegoat to determine that, but we still have not addressed the issue of whether or not, Mr. Minister, you find that having other people teach your culture is good for you. Well, it is not good enough for me. I cannot allow that to happen. So, as aboriginal people in this House, we should be able to say that the responsibility of the education of cultural programs, whether it is music, stories, songs or whatever the case may be, should be the responsibility of the communities, not the local education authorities.

They are the ones that should decide whether or not they will delegate it to the local education authorities to determine. The way it is now, I do not think the local education authorities will ever allow the communities to take on those programs. I have not seen it happen in my lifetime as a Member.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. No, I am not using any scapegoat, but, I do not know the difference between the education society, or council, coming from the community and not being a member of the community at the same time.

The department cannot, under the present Education Act, dictate what should be excluded from the school. For example: math, cultural inclusion, land skills, English. We cannot say they should not be in there. The Education Act is under review now, hopefully the honourable Member will participate in determining how the Education Act will be amended. We are hoping and working hard to get that done by 1994. But, it will need your input and one of the inputs can be exactly what Mr. Gargan is talking about. But, until such time as the Education Act is amended through this House, we have no authority to exclude, or override the divisional boards under the Educational Act.

Thank you. General Comments, Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I cannot wait until 1994. I have a difficult time as it is trying to convince the Minister that one of the difficulties students are having right now is, against aboriginal students and I am sure the same thing applies if a non-native student was to go into a cultural program, there is a vast difference between the two cultures the way it has been practised and the way it has been implemented.

When you allow a young child aged 13 to 16 having to make a choice between two value systems, it is pretty hard and pretty confusing. Mr. Chairman, yes, education, but the learning methods, the value systems are different. The Minister, of all people, should know that.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to report progress and continue again tomorrow, if I may?

The motion is in order, and not debatable. To the motion. All of those in favour? All of those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Item 20, report of the committee of the whole, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Is there a seconder to the motion? Mr. Dent. Motion is in order. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Item 21, third reading of bills. Item 22, Mr. Clerk, orders of the day. Oh, excuse me, Mr. Clerk. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to return to Members' statements, please.

The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to return to Members' statements. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please continue, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Thank you very much. I did not make one today. Mr. Speaker, I have the floor, and on behalf of the ordinary Members, I think it is only appropriate that we show our expression of appreciation to Mr. Hamilton who has given us many good years of service. I would like to present him with a small token of appreciation on behalf of the Members, and due to government restraint, unfortunately unable to wrap it up very nice and shiny.

---Applause

On behalf of Mr. Hamilton, I say thank you.

---Singing

---Applause

I am not sure where in the rules there is a place to sing that song. It is probably out of order, but nonetheless, item 20, Mr. 44-year old.

Mr. Speaker, there will be meetings of all the committees tonight starting at six. Meetings tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m. of the Standing Committee on Finance, also at 9:00 a.m. on the Standing Committee on Legislation, at 10:30 a.m. of the Ordinary Members' Caucus, Orders of the Day for Wednesday, September 16, 1992:

1. Prayer

2. Ministers' Statements

3. Members' Statements

4. Returns to Oral Questions

5. Oral Questions

6. Written Questions

7. Returns to Written Questions

8. Replies to Opening Address

9. Replies to Budget Address

10. Petitions

11. Reports of Standing and Special Committees

12. Reports of Committees on the Review of Bills

13. Tabling of Documents

14. Notices of Motion

15. Notices of Motion for First Reading of Bills

16. Motions

- Motion 31

17. First Reading of Bills

18. Second Reading of Bills

19. Consideration in Committees of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

- Tabled Documents 9-12(2)

- Tabled Document 10-12(2)

- Motion 6

- Committee Report 10-12(2)

- Tabled Document 62-12(2)

- Minister's Statement 82-12(2)

- Committee Report 17-12(2)

- Bills 33 and 9

20. Report of the Committee of the Whole

21. Third Reading of Bills

22. Orders of the Day