Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, I understand that fluency and literacy in Inuktitut is one of them, grade 12 certification, or G.E.D. 12, or 21 years of age, I think 21 years of age or older, is what Mr. Arngna'naaq is concerned about. Those fluent and literate in Inuktitut, for example, is a qualification for a language specialist student, who will not necessarily be teaching other subjects except Inuktitut. That person does not require grade 12 English, rather a fluency and literacy in Inuktitut. It would be very, very nice, I agree with Mr. Arngna'naaq, that if we would have all the grade 12 academic graduates enter into a T.E.P. program, and later on, in fact, to get their B.A. in Education. However, until such a time we get higher participation in either program, we cannot afford to make a strict entrance requirement because we will be excluding a lot of students. At the moment, we are encouraging language specialists in Inuktitut, Dogrib, or Chipewyan, who may not have grade 12, but are strong in their own aboriginal language, who can be easily trained to be instructors in their own language, to be taught teaching methods of different subjects within the scope of the aboriginal languages and culture. These are the requirements right now, to encourage everyone, especially the long time classroom assistant, who are very fluent in Inuktitut, who have been teaching a long time in the school system, but always classified as labourers, or whatever you want to call them. They are not classified as a teacher, even though some of them have 25 years experience, so we put them into a Language Specialist Program on the T.E.P., so they could become teachers of that language. These are the different criteria required for entrance until such a time as we are given a different direction to do so by legislation, we want to follow these entrance criteria right now. Thank you.

Thank you, general comments. Ms. Mike.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

(Translation ends) In closing programs at community level, and this always has been an issue, that we have elders who come into the schools to teach the children. I would call them volunteer service. More and more our elders are more reluctant in passing on their knowledge to our young, when they know that we have teachers that are attractively paid, and they do not get anything.

In this process, we are losing our cultural values. Cultural inclusion usually only consists of traditional garment making, and taking students out onto the land for one day or overnight. There are other things that the Department of Education does not look at, that is Inuit values, for instance, naming traditions of Inuit. I am sure Mr. Minister has a lot of names, that he otherwise would never have been associated with, a particular person, not necessarily a relative of his, and because of his namesake he has developed a certain relationship with certain persons.

Those kinds of values are not taught in schools. Over the years that value is disappearing, especially among younger school children and has totally all disappeared in Greenland which was once a very strong tradition. I would hate to see that go among our own Inuit people. I mean cultural inclusion programs are just sort of another bandaging solution to keep certain people who are vocal in the local level quiet.

The thing is, we do have values that are valuable, they are not being taught in schools, and that is one of the reasons why we do not have a high rate of graduates. We do not have any kind of measurement to measure why we do not have a high number of graduates in high school.

Another area, I was shocked to hear the Minister say to Mr. Arngna'naaq that child care is being taught in schools. From what I can remember we did have a really nice program in Churchill Vocational Training School on child care, and I think that should also be included in junior high. Then maybe that would alleviate some of the problems that young people face today about parenting.

Another area that I do have concerns on, is the attitudes that we have in schools. We can not continue blaming our students, I mean they are not totally stupid, actually they are very bright. There is something wrong if not even half of the students graduate from high school. I do agree with Mr. Lewis when he talked about putting some kind of measurement in place, so that we can keep going back and see how things are progressing.

Thank you. Any other general comments? Mr. Minister? Any other general comments? General comments, Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, we are in a situation this year where there are some program cuts, and some restraint measures being taken. This is not going to be a trick question, just a straightforward question. Last year the department decided to do monthly payments, as opposed to quarterly payments, and there were motions with regard to that, by divisional boards of education contribution agreements.

The Deh Cho Tribal Council also came up with a motion opposing that. Primarily because, the Minister would agree, if I said that it was a lot cheaper doing something once, as opposed to doing it twelve times. Do you agree with me?

Multiple choice? Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In terms of mathematics and employees, yes, Mr. Gargan is right. However, it was not the expenses that we were talking about, it was a cash flow situation that forced the government to do monthly payments from a quarterly payment. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Gargan, general comments.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I think all the rationale has already been justified by the regions with regard to why, maybe having a quarterly contribution agreement, or a yearly would even be better. Then, at least, the Minister may assign one cheque to each region, you make the best possible ways of delivering the programs, and maybe give additional programs with that money.

I would prefer that, rather than having these monthly payments. He must be burdened with signing cheques every week because of all the schools, and the contributions that he has to do every month on that. My God, I do not know how you could put up with that, Mr. Chairman.

---Laughter

Sorry. Mr. Gargan, general comments?

I do not know if the Minister wants to respond to that. It is a suggestion on how we might be able to assist this government. I think he said that in his opening statement, that any suggestion that would help the department is welcome. I am giving him that suggestion, I hope that he takes it, and considers it.

The other thing, Mr. Chairman, is that this week on the National, there is a program on education that has been on now since Monday, it shows educational issues and how parents are involved, or not involved, in the challenge of the education system.

One thing that I wanted to mention is that, I was happy to hear on the radio last Friday that a gentlemen in Fort Good Hope, Charlie Barnaby, agreed with me, with regards to what I have said. I am not suggesting that we take the cultural programs out of the school and eliminate it, what I suggested was that the cultural programs, the aboriginal cultural programs, should be taken out of the schools, and the responsibility should be given to the community to operate that program. He does agree with me on that. There are all the reasons behind it, and I have already tried to address them. Maybe with regard to, Mr. Chairman, the contribution agreements, I would like to ask the Minister, if he might consider that quarterly, or yearly, contribution agreement.

Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Department of Education did not rule, or direct, the contribution schedule from quarterly to monthly. It was the government that gave the directive, the Cabinet directive. The department must abide by this, because it is a government directive, like any other directive.

In terms of your comments about why the Cultural Inclusion Program be handled by the school rather than any other agency or organization, such as the band or community council, we should give divisional boards $75 a head for students, and it is up to the divisional board how they want to handle the Cultural Inclusion Program. We give the conditional funding to the divisional boards that they use $75 for the Cultural Inclusion Program. How they do it, the way they think is most effective, is their business. That is one of the reasons we are trying to build this autonomy, between the Department of Education and the divisional boards. Divisional boards know better than the Department of Education how that the money can be best used in the school system.

Thank you. General comments, Mr. Gargan.

The Minister mentioned $75 going to the school, per student, I believe. Who gets the French Immersion Programs, or the French language programs? What is it on, and who gets it? Is it the school boards that get it, or the French organizations that get it? There are monies that go directly to the Francophone communities.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will ask Mr. Gerein if he can answer that one. It is a figure that we do not have in front of us. I will ask Mr. Gerein to respond.

Thank you. Mr. Gerein.

Mr. Chairman, my knowledge of this, at this time, is that the department does not provide any special funding for French immersion, or boards who offer French immersion schools, although we may be receiving some money from the Secretary of State for Canada, for these purposes, relative to the offering of official languages in the education system. I would need to research that, Mr. Chairman, if there is further information required by the Member.

Thank you. Any other general comments? Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will make my comments brief, I have expressed many of my concerns to the Minister in the Standing Committee on Finance meetings.

However, I do want to indicate to the Minister, that I am still disappointed with the fact that the Department of Education is considering the elimination of the Northern Leaders Program.

I recognize that the Minister had wanted to justify the cost of running the program, and possibly redirect the funding into the Student Assistance Financial Program. I do not agree with that particular point. I want to point out a couple of items. The purpose of setting up the Northern Leaders Program initially, was to try to encourage leaders, that are currently within the claims process, to go out, get educated, to be able to come back into the north, and implement their claims as they were successful, concluded and negotiated.

It appears that since this government, and this past government, had made that effort to set up the program, I do not know what measures, or what types of success measures, was put in place to determine whether they are successful or not. The concept was greatly supported by many people. I do not know if the program was being delivered in an equitable manner to ensure that this was the purpose of the program, and that the concept was being adhered to.

It is somewhat disappointing, as a native person, to recognize that the past government, and now this government, set up a program specifically for native people to go and get educated, but for many years since this government's creation, we have had programs through educational leave where we allowed for many non-natives, and many senior bureaucrats in this government, to acquire a masters degree, or some type of a degree, after being recruited by the Government of the Northwest Territories. They have had that opportunity to further their education at government expense.

Now, it appears that as soon as we develop a leadership program to address conclusions and negotiations of upcoming claims that we are going to be looking at, we decide to cut the Northern Leaders Program. I would like to point that out to the Minister that, not only myself, but other Members that feel that this program, even though it had its shortfalls, should be looked at once again to determine if this program could be a successful one. If it is able to address the political needs, and able to address the proposals of self-government that we are talking about, the constitutional talks, and native people talking, and trying to address their own destiny in the territories. So, I would like to ask the Minister if his department would reconsider, and possibly revamp the program, so that they may want to look at placing it back in place to give native leaders, or native people the opportunity that this particular program maybe available in the future?

The other comment that I have, Mr. Chairman, is in respect to the Apprenticeship Program. I am concerned with the fact that, even though I know we have a fairly good success rate of apprenticeships, there may still be a good percentage of apprentices that do not conclude their apprenticeship in the prescribed time frame that is allotted. There may be an abuse of the program. That an individual may not be concluding their apprenticeship in the time period that is set up for them, and I wonder what the department has done, and what measures do they take, to ensure that these individuals, once they go for a four year apprenticeship, are not taking eight years to complete it? Is the Department of Education monitoring, so that they do conclude their Apprenticeship Program within the four years that is prescribed? I believe there are some apprentices that have taken an excessive amount of time.

In respect to, Mr. Chairman, two other comments on the quality of education, the concern of many Members is on the standardization of education. We have to find some method to be able to standardize it, and, I believe, we also have to find some way to maintain educational standards among the teachers that deliver that education. I would like to know if the department would look at a concept of trying to find a system in place to do periodic testing, to ensure the teachers, that are delivering the education, do maintain an educational standard? I believe it is in Alaska, I cannot recall which jurisdiction, but they have testing, every five years, that ensures whether or not the teacher is still fully qualified to be able to teach. It prevents a teacher from allowing themselves to become stagnant, and also encourages a teacher to look at new ideas. So, in order to ensure that we are striving toward a quality education, I strongly believe that standardization of the education program is critically important. We also have to ensure that the teachers that deliver the program, the educators, are maintaining an educational standard that is acceptable. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I agree with Mrs. Marie-Jewell, that maybe the Teacher Education Program should be looked at. When I go over this time and again trying to understand, I only come up with what Tom said, "how come I get student financial assistance in taking management development courses at the University of Lethbridge, when Mr. H gets leadership program funding, when he is my classmate in that same university, taking that same management development course." Where is the justification between these two aboriginal people from the same community? One is receiving funds from student financial aid, the other one is receiving funds from leadership. We need to review that before we re-activate it. That is what we recommended to the Financial Management Board, that this be concluded. If the House wants to re-activate it, we really have to review it, and make sure that these kinds of things are not visible, or at least they are justified to be in existence. What we can do, then, I guess, is make this one so that it is more geared toward land claims, or a Post Land Claims Development Program, in conjunction, or in cooperation, with recognized universities. I would have no hesitation in looking into that, as Mrs. Marie-Jewell said. Now I will have Mr. Gerein answer the Apprenticeship Program question in terms of how it is supervised. In terms of standard assessment, or standardization of exams that we already have, I think I mentioned that the other day, that we have standard assessment for grade three, six, nine, and 12, plus the indicator that I mentioned in my opening remarks, and the teachers are evaluated by their supervisors of schools each year, right in the classroom. Apparently they are not warned when the supervisor of schools will be entering in the class, so these kinds of things do happen. I think one of the ways we can prevent substandard education we may be getting, is that every three years, there is an actual standard assessment test given to each student. Mr. Chairman, I ask Mr. Gerein to answer in respect to Apprenticeship Programs. Thank you.