General comments. Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Chairman, there could be a motion in this House giving a directive to the government to move in a certain direction in regard to education. There is still a situation in which the aboriginal people are going to be faced with, which does not give this government much choice in regard to the direction they are taking concerning their own language and culture, and we are not looking in that direction at all. We are still under the impression, that as a government, we know what is best for the community, and we deliver them in appropriate ways. Education, with regard to the planning of programs in the school, also includes culture. Section 19, of one of the acts, recognizes ethnic and cultural variations. What I am saying is that eventually, Mr. Chairman, if the aboriginal people said, "look we tried your education system up to now, we would like to try our own way, and it is our inherent right to do that." The government cannot stop aboriginal people from doing that, but we are not looking in that direction right now. We were hoping that something like this would not be raised, but I think it will be raised, and the more we try not to address it, the more it is going to be determined against aboriginal people. They are going to say that under the new Canadian Constitution, we could ask for it, and I do not think there is too much we could do about it.

Thank you. General comments, Mr. Gargan.

In your opening statement today, you did indicate that you are going to do away with the leadership program. I know that some monies are going to be eliminated under the Leadership Training Program. I only have one Member of my constituency that is under the program itself, but what is going to happen to that student, and is that effective April 1? Will he be a part of that program then, or are students still under the program going to be under the program until they are finished with it?

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, I will honour the previous Minister, under the government's directive, in so far as to say that the students who are already enrolled in that program will complete that program. We are simply saying that we recommended to the F.M.B., to eliminate that for new applicants. There will be no new money for new applicants, however, those who have not yet completed, or are still continuing, still enrolled, will continue to get funding under that program. However, as I said on Friday, those who have completed university who are in the general studies, and there is no actual program set for those particular students who are in post-secondary, in fact, none of them have taken that specifically geared towards land claims. They are taking the same courses as those who are receiving, under the Student Financial Assistance Program, exactly the same thing. The only thing that is different is that they have higher allowances. We have not seen anywhere that we provide or they enrol in a special course on the land claims, unless if specific direction is given by this House. For the preparation of the land claims, they are to be given instruction, at least an agreement, that if they are interested in law, these are the kinds of courses that they should be taking, because they are being given financial assistance, so that they will become workers on the land claims agreement. I was not able to turn around and submit to the F.M.B., and say this is a good program because this and this, but it is a good program, and we still can do the same program, except we will be able to enrol more students with less money. That is what we are saying. I have no other argument, it is a good program, but it is very expensive and also there is other alternative funding available under the Student Financial Assistance Program for the same people.

Thank you. General comments, Mr. Ningark.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you Mr. Minister for being able to speak to you. I think you realize in Greenland, the Inuit people over there have three languages, the majority of them. I went to Copenhagen quite some time ago, and I was really surprised that the Inuit people from Greenland can speak three languages. I think their Inuktitut language is called Kalasiit.

They can also speak Danish and English. Perhaps, if it is possible, you could meet with the Minister of Education in Greenland, to consult with him, as to how they have their education system set from the beginning, from kindergarten to grade 12. Perhaps you could meet with that Minister of Education in Greenland, and ask him how their home rule government has their education system set for teaching their children over there?

Inuktitut language courses in the schools, and in the communities especially, is very much pushed, not just the language of the Inuit, but the culture of the Inuit, is also pushed by the parents in the communities to be taught to their children, such as caribou hunting, tanning hides and for the girls to be able to learn how to sew and to learn how to do different kinds of things for skin cleaning.

We are always going to be living in the north, in Nunavut, and as long as the sun does not come to our northland I know that this place will always be cold and the teaching of the culture and the language of our aboriginal people should be carried out. I am talking about, for example, learning about different kinds of textures of snow, snow is not just the only word in our Inuktitut language, when there are different textures. Say, for example in the springtime, or in the fall or in the middle of winter, it is a different texture, and it is called a different way in Inuktitut. Also, the same for the texture of the ice in different seasons, is called differently in Inuktitut.

Mr. Minister, I would like to tell you that the Inuit people in my constituency and in other constituencies in the Inuit land would like to continue to learn their language and their culture. Perhaps you could visit the Minister of Education in Greenland and consult with him in regards to how they have their school system set up in Greenland. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Did you have any general comments to make?

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The people of Greenland, like you said, when they go to school they learn three languages. First they learn at home in their mother tongue, then Danish and English, and if they want to learn a different language when they go to university, they learn to speak French and German. I know that they have had their education system for over 200 years that way.

I am not really sure, maybe I am mistaken, I know that they started their Inuktitut as their first language in school, I cannot really remember what year it was. They did some studies quite some time ago, I think it was at the beginning of the Baffin Divisional Board of Education visited the Greenland communities to find out their education system and I think that the Department of Education from the G.N.W.T. visited Greenland also to find out how their education system runs in Greenland, because the Greenland education system is getting better and better all of the time and they also have a place where they teach their educators.

So, we will be visiting with them and consulting with them as to how their education system is operating, and they will also visit the N.W.T. to find out how we have our education system set up in regards to their first language in school. So, we will always be consulting with each other, Mr. Chairman, such as sharing ideas in regards to educational systems, they will study ours and we will study theirs. Thank you.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Ningark.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is my last comment. It is still in regard to languages, there are different dialects in the Baffin, Kitikmeot, and Keewatin, they all have different dialects. Even though the communities are very close to each other, they are slightly different in dialect, although they understand each other. As well, the Quebec dialect is quite different although we can understand them.

The businesses of languages will probably always continue to develop or will always be standardized. It is very good to have different dialects. Say, for instance the Natilikmiot dialect is different and Amittuq dialect is very different, and the Quebec dialect is very different. They are very musical, and they should not be standardized, because that is just their way of doing things. What do you think should be done in regards to standardizing, Mr. Minister?

Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, there are different dialects in Inuktitut and they are very valuable dialects. I do not think this government, especially the Department of Education, is in support of standardizing Inuktitut languages. I do not think anyone would be in support of standardizing Inuktitut languages.

We are not talking about standardizing, nor do we want to standardize their writing system, or the different methods of speaking dialects. I, for one, support that the more dialectic languages you have, the more quality of education you will have. You will be able to go to different communities and different regions, and you will be able to speak those languages.

It is not the aim of this department to standardize dialects. For example, if there is a curriculum developed in Inuktitut in the Baffin, that can be taken in Kitikmeot. The Kitikmeot children will learn the different dialects spoken elsewhere. The Kitikmeot could produce one, and learning materials can be used in the Kitikmeot. That way, you will be able to understand the languages, in all regions, because the languages are basically in the same circumpolar area. It is only the different dialectic ways of speaking, like they do in the English speaking world.

If you go to England, Scotland, or Australia, you will see the dialectic differences. Even in North America, you have mature and mature. These are very good things to learn from one area to the other. My answer is, Mr. Chairman, very simply, no, we will not be pursuing to standardize dialectic systems in Inuktitut. Thank you.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Koe.

Mahsi, Mr. Chairman. I have several comments and concerns relating to the general state of education. Many of my colleagues have talked about, or mentioned, the quality of education, the quality of graduates, and what are we producing today in our schools.

We are very concerned about high enrolments and enrolment numbers, trying to push them from kindergarten to grade 12, and onto bigger and better things. The question is, are we producing quality graduates, however you define that? Basically, there is an indication of a problem when we see teachers, who are teaching in our high schools, continuing to send their own children south for high school. That always makes me wonder why that is happening and what the problem is. It is an indication that there may be a problem. I just make that observation.

I think back to when I was young, a few years ago, a couple of years ago, the big difference when I was in high school in 1963-65, the high school classes of mine produced, as my colleague Mr. Todd says, the butcher, the baker and the candlestick maker. There was not a lot of us in S.A.M.S. high school, in those days, and not all of us went straight from high school onto bigger and better things. There was obviously, for many of us, a period of growth adjustment, but we did produce a doctor, lawyers, an accountant, an engineer, several pilots, an electrician, a plumber, and several teachers. It always makes me wonder why then, what happened in that period, in the early 1960s, or mid 1960s, and you compare that group of people, some 20 to 25 people, to people who are coming out of the school systems now. I have asked many experts, and I never got any answers. We talk about discipline, most of us went through the hostel system. Discipline was in the high school then, and in the hostel, as compared to what is happening now. I do not know what the answer is, this is just an observation. There is something amiss in trying to match what is happening with the students these days.

Another concern, or issue, that has been raised more than once, and I have raised it, is the level of aboriginal teachers, especially in high schools. I think this year is the first time in the Inuvik High School that they have an aboriginal teacher, and she has been hired to teach the Gwich'in language. To put my plug in for the T.E.P., Teacher Education Program, that the Delta region has been pushing for, is sadly needed, as we have the lowest number of aboriginal teachers compared to other regions in the territories. I think that a program such as this will help balance the numbers in terms of aboriginal teachers.

Another concern or problem, I have raised, and have noted in a paper this week, is the current problems of high enrolments in high schools. It makes we wonder, again, what kind of crystal ball your experts are looking at. How do you come up with predictions, how can we be so wrong from one year to the another?

I know across the territories grade 10 has just been introduced and that is part of the problem. You would assume in this day and age of computers and high tech and information, that some kind of survey would have been done within our communities, to find out how many drop outs would want to come back to school. It does not make sense to me, why come September 1, our classrooms are bursting at the seams, we do not have enough teachers, and we have to go for supps, and play catch up for two or three months. Something is wrong with the way the departmental experts do their work.

I will leave it at those three, I have more, but I will get some comments from the Minister, and his staff.

Thank you. Any comments, Mr. Minister.

Just a very brief one, Mr. Chairman. In terms of those teachers who are still sending their children to schools down south, I have talked to several of them, and they are basically personal choices. Some of them say that the quality of education is not necessarily how the subject is being taught, rather some of them complain that there is no music, no arts, no French language, no Spanish language lessons, and more courses that they would like to see in schools, so they send their students to the south.

Then again, the problem with the Department of Education here is that we are barely keeping up with building schools when the population growth is so high, and can we afford to get music, arts, French and Spanish languages, and everything else to go with it, with our present facilities? That is one question that we, as a Legislative Assembly, will have to answer.

With the T.E.P. programs, the school strategy that we are working on, that we are including, for the students to be teachers of the middle and high school area. We have two Inuit that I know of that have a Masters in Education, and we are pushing towards that, that is part of the school strategy. Our program is that we will get them going in the T.E.P. program, especially those who have grade 12, then, once they have gone through that, they can actually enter into the degree program in education. Then they would able to qualify, if they take specialized courses as high school teachers.

There are hard subjects that you are mentioning, in regards to why we were putting out more quality students in the early 60's, than we are today. We have hunted through this for that answer. I agree with you that it is very, very difficult. Some people suggest that at that time, there were less things to see, the world was not as complex. There was more imagination, more specific subjects taken as strict, standard, and compulsory. Right now, with more liberal education, there are so many varieties of courses that you can take as part of your credit, and the television is there, and everything else around youth today is a multitude of new things that make the students less quality students. These are some of the suggestions, but real answers nobody really knows why that has happened.

(Translation) I think I will leave it at that for now, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Thank you. General comments, Mr. Koe.

Yes, we did have industrial arts, and home economics, music, and arts, and even though many of us did not like music or art, it was there, and we took it. That brings up my next comment, and subject, about the change in policy in payments to divisional boards. I am sure you are aware, that many of the divisional boards were receiving quarterly contributions, and in the months they were not expending the money, they were making some interest, and using that money to fund a lot of what we are talking about, these extra-curricular programs. I am concerned about this, and the boards are concerned about it, and how are they going to make up the difference in the funding that they used to receive and earn to what they get today? I know, especially in my area, a lot of the money was used for language, arts, and cultural programs they cannot fund with their current budgets.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am aware of the impact. In fact, I think I was one of the leading Members who was arguing why they have switched to a monthly payment schedule on school boards. Then again, I can understand and appreciate that the government has been required to implement a monthly schedule for school boards for at least interim appropriation period. Now, the government making this decision was faced with a cash deficiency of its own. We cannot simply afford to make large contributions, payments, before they are needed. It is not to punish the divisional boards by any means. However, Mr. Chairman, the government has committed to examine funding arrangements, and work with boards to determine the best means of financing school programs. We are working on it now, an initial recommendation for changes to school financing should be ready by the end of October. Thank you.

Thank you. General comments, Mr. Koe.

Another area of concern which I have raised with the department is the issue of educating special needs people, and the cases that I raised earlier in my political career was an instance where an individual had turned 18, and the Department of Education would not accept her in the high school to continue the program that she was on. It did not make sense, and I raised the issue with the departments that were involved, Education, Social Services, and Health, and I got the football thrown around from one department to the other. The agencies involved were still concerned, but you still have an individual that, in my opinion and many other people's opinion, was entitled to go to school. I am just raising it as a general issue as there does not seem to be a definite program, or a definite policy, in dealing with special needs people, that there should be better coordination between the departments, Education, Health, Social Services, they are all involved in looking after and taking into consideration the needs of these individuals, and how to integrate them into the public school system, and the community that they live in.