Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I agree with Mr. Koe, and we too, are interested in this with the tri-ministry of Social Services, Education and Health.

Thank you. Just to remind Members again, this is general comments, and when we get to specific items, we will deal with the specific questions. However, Mr. Koe, general comments. Also, just to remind honourable Members, the rules do indicate that there is a limitation on the amount of time, and that is ten minutes, so we have been sort of over-extending that, but I just wanted you to be aware of that. Mr. Koe.

I have one more and, again, it concerns programs, educational streams or programs that I know the Minister is aware of, because it was brought up at several of the meetings with the groups from the Delta, and it concerns the Senior Practical Program that is carried out in high school in Inuvik. There are several streams, on one stream, a student can take his Senior Matriculation Program, and one is what we call general. The third one that has been created, is the Senior Practical Program, and the leaders in my area are concerned about what the program is, why students were put into this program. They are concerned about the quality of the program, the transferability, the credits that they earn in that program, and I can expand that to some of the concerns I have with the general program, how students are very quickly coming out of grade nine into grade ten, deemed not capable of taking senior matriculation courses, put into a general program, and then they graduate and they find themselves not able to proceed to university or college.

I am just wondering about the quick determination of students, or the assessment of students, and why they are very quickly put into programs that they do not have much future in, unless they want to become a tradesman or something, and there is a good future in that. I am not downgrading that, but you know the issue, and I want to raise it aloud.

General comments. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, we had a good discussion in Inuvik on the Community Occupational Programs and S.P.P. Naturally, we want everyone to be enrolled in the academic programs, but there are some areas that a student feels he cannot handle, and then we have school counselling, the parents, and the teachers, and they may be put in the general program.

The Department of Education developed two alternate programs, the Community Occupational Program, and the Senior Practical Program designed for students who are at least 15 years of age, who are more likely to succeed in a cooperative work station school setting, rather than the general, or the secondary school certificate setting.

In fact, we are reviewing these as part of the school strategy to determine whether S.P.P. should be, in fact, in the school system. Some people feel that has been used as a scapegoat, some people feel that this is unnecessary. So, depending on how much feedback we get out of that one, we may even consider it not necessary as part of the school system. So, Mr. Chairman, it is part of the school strategy that we are doing. We will be taking that notice into consideration very seriously. Thank you.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Pudlat.

(Translation) Mr. Chairman, I shall try to stay within my ten minute time slot. My comments should be brief. Now, we are all aware that we are working hard, and we are all under pressure. I have been working hard in this field for many years, since 1985, when the birth of the Baffin Divisional Board of Education occurred. We had the jurisdiction of running schools.

We were educated on how to properly operate the school board, this occurred in 1985. We are all working hard. We are aware that finances are hard to come by, but we keep saying that the financing that was provided quarterly is something that we bring up many times, especially myself. Often we are told that they will try to come up with the best way of financing the school boards but there are many curriculum materials to be provided, and there are many different subjects to be studied that still have to be implemented.

Since that is the case, and since we are faced with budget cutbacks, it is going to become very difficult to provide quality education because we are still at a shortfall. Education is something that we are working hard towards, as parents, especially as fathers, because we used to be taught, but we do not teach life skills any more. Now adays, we have handed over our children to the education system, and it has caused stress on both parts.

Financial restraints are a reality. Although there are many subjects that we should be teaching, we are unable to. The quarterly funding that was provided previously is something that should be returned. We miss that arrangement, because the funding was properly used for developing curriculum and for providing casual employment, among other things.

I realize that we always get a response whereby they will come up with the best possible solution between the governments and the school boards. So, during question period, I will be posing more questions to that effect. We are all aware, here in the territories, which subjects are to be taught, and which subjects are not being taught. Slowly, we are expanding our studies and subjects, including more studies in Inuktitut, which was recently begun.

Since the Inuktitut curriculum was started we started, using money that was through interest. It seemed like we were off to a good start, but once again, it is difficult to predict that this will continue at the rate that it first started. I do not want to say too much, I will probably have other questions, this was just my general comment, it was not a question. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I can only respond in the same manner as I responded to Mr. Koe. We are all aware of financial restraints, because there is less interest. You cannot grow interest with the financing formula as it is. There was money being circulated through interest, which was put into producing Inuktitut teaching curriculum in the Baffin Divisional Board system.

As I said to Mr. Koe earlier, the government is presently looking at ways to provide funding for school boards to provide their curriculum. I can respond in the same way, we will come up with the best possible solution, through talking with the government and the school boards. We are going to figure out a way to provide funding to produce better curriculum for different school boards, be it in the Baffin or in other regions.

We want to review this, we want to come up with a better financing formula prior to the end of October, as I stated.

Thank you. Mr. Lewis.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will be brief. I have had many chances to make general comments, and I just want to make one. It has to do with the problems of evaluation. We spend an awful lot of money on education and have done for a long time, and the sums get bigger and bigger, yet we are never able to convince the public that we are achieving results, as a result of this large amount of money that we spend. It is a very difficult problem, I do not want to under estimate it, Mr. Chairman. It has plagued people for a long, long time, as to how you really show that the money you spend is getting results, that young people are getting a good education.

I have thought about it for a long, long time, and I am going to make just one suggestion. The problem that we have in this political arena, we always want to do things fast, we want to get results, and show how well we are doing. Sometimes, you think things are cooked up, and you are not convinced about the story that you are hearing.

I have noticed, over the years, that medical research is so much better. We evaluate medical items so much better than we evaluate education items. They seem to have a grip on how to evaluate, and how to get better results somehow. My suspicion is that they are able to do it, because they can take a longer view.

This profession seems to have gotten a handle on looking at what we call, longitudinal things, where you say, let us look at a bunch of people, take them through a long period of time, and see exactly what happens to them.

In politics, of course, you are always aware that you are going to be there a very short time, and you take the short view, you do not take the long view.

It is the same thing with things like water quality. You have to have a base line to start from. Maybe what is needed is, that we start one of these longitudinal things, take a bunch of people, try to stay in touch with them, see what they are doing, try to interview them from time to time, and let them remember the things that helped them from their schooling, or the problems that they had. Maybe if we get this bunch of people, and we keep in touch with them, we can learn an awful lot from their life experience.

As politicians we tend to think, we have to think short term, we cannot, that is into never never land, it does not matter that much. The medical people have done it. There are all kinds of interesting things that the medical people have done, where they have followed people for 25 years. These people have started with them and we have learned an awful lot, because it is very difficult to separate what schooling does from all the other things that influence people. It is one of the toughest things. I know that to protect ourselves, very often, we say, well, we are only going to test kids on what that teacher was supposed to have taught them in that class. In that way you can make it much simpler. It is so short term, it helps you over the hump, I suppose, while you have this or that Minister. I think that we should take a long view and maybe we should have a bit of courage and say well, perhaps we should begin some kind of program, or study to follow people through a longer period of time, so that future generations can learn from what we have done. All that information is lost, it is all gone, and all we have is antidote, like Mr. Koe's, "I remember when things were so good." We could learn from it, if we were to do something like that. Just a suggestion. Thank you.

Thank you, very much. General comments. Mr. Arngna'naaq.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I suppose like every other Member, I have opinions and concerns about education. It is for our children, and for our future. Some of the concerns, or opinions, that I have are related to some of the concerns that were raised by other Members.

Such as the one that Mr. Koe just mentioned, when you have teachers and principals who are sending their school age kids down south. That does not give you much confidence in the system that we have in the Northwest Territories.

Other areas that I had been concerned about, and I have talked to a number of people about, is the cultural programs. I feel that our culture is a way of life, and not a subject in the classroom. I feel much the same way as Mr. Gargan does, in that the cultural programs are programs that should be run by that culture. When you say the community, you can say the community, for example Baker Lake. When you are talking about cultural programs being run by the community, we are also saying that there is some kabloonas, or other cultures, that are in those education councils, and they are determining the time table, or the subject matter of the cultural program. In that way, we lose out in not being able to pass on, or teach the culture to the young people. Again, Inuit did not learn, or live in buildings, so I do not see how we could study our culture in a building. It is taught out on the land, that is where we lived, and that is where it should be taught, out on the land. How you can fit that into a school program? It is tough, when you are dealing with a school. There are timetables that are followed.

Another area that I have thought about a lot is discipline, or parental involvement in the school. I believe there is a parent in the school program, or something of this nature, and that is one question that I would like to ask of the Minister, is that program still going, and is it working with several different communities? How effective it has been? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, that is still in existence. That is in existence in both schools, and Arctic College. The elders in the community can be asked if they can do that, or the classroom assistants, and the Teacher Education Program graduates usually know who the elders are. They would ask them in, and ask them to tell their students a story for a half hour or 20 minutes. If the story is not that long, then children can ask questions, like what that words means, etc. Yes, that is still practised.

Thank you. Mr. Arngna'naaq, general comments.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think that an effective parental involvement program is needed. In my opinion, maybe in every community. We, as politicians, could make all kinds of recommendations, to have the best resources, to have the best teachers, and so on, but if we do not have students in those schools, then all our recommendations and best resources are useless.

There should be a way to get parents involved in the school and also to encourage them to bring their children to school. I understand that there is a higher percentage than there should be, of students who do not attend school at all. They may come in once a month, or something, but other than that, that is all there is. The other question would be if there is anything the department is able or willing to do in that area. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The parenting program can easily be initiated by the community, especially through the Arctic College evening courses. If there is no Arctic College, then there is student counselling that also involves parents that can advise, and guide, especially the young parents. Also, this can be done as part of the cultural program about parenting that the community can initiate on their own by using the elders in the community, how the parenting used to be done. I cannot blame any young people who are trying to raise their children and are having a hard time, because they have never been really taught how to

parent in the hostel system. How can you blame them for not being able to parent properly? These kinds of initiations can be done in the community. I do not think that is the Department of Education's responsibility, rather, as a society, that type can be easily initiated in the community. Certainly, the principals and teachers would be very happy to participate in child psychology, if it deals with what they know from their own professional training. Thank you.

Thank you. General comments, Mr. Arngna'naaq.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have a couple more questions. One area in which we have a lot of problems in our communities, are those that have a high number of people who are on social assistance. Sometimes they are not able to budget for themselves to be able to feed their children all the time, or in between social assistance cheques. I am just wondering, is there a program in the Department of Education where breakfast, or a snack program could be utilized? From what I understand, a student, or a young person, may not function in the best learning environment if they have not been fed. I think that this is the case in a lot of the small communities, where you have children who wake up in the morning, have a glass of water, and then go to school. Is there any such programs in this department? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. No, the department has no breakfast or lunch programs in the schools, other than residential schools. However, the community education councils, or societies in each community, can initiate such a program with their contributions from the divisional boards, but the Department of Education has no program for that.

Thank you. General comments, Mr. Arngna'naaq.