Thank you, Mr. Todd. Are there any general comments on the Department of Justice before we proceed activity by activity? Mr. Gargan.
Debates of Sept. 25th, 1992
Topics
Committee Motion 176-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation No. 56
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 1108
Committee Motion 176-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation No. 56
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 1108
Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, on the Department of Justice, I want to make some general comments about the fundamental changes that must take place within the Department of Justice.
We cannot go on any longer with the present system which tells us that our beliefs and traditions do not matter, and will not be enforced, while we must follow rules that make no sense to our way of life.
Earlier today, I made a statement about the government's refusal to fulfil its promise to aboriginal people in the Northwest Territories in the area of family law. The government promised aboriginal people that there would be a major reworking of the Northwest Territories Family Law Legislation, so that laws will respect and enforce aboriginal traditions and values.
This is a four year old promise, Mr. Chairman, for fundamental changes that are crucial to self-determination of aboriginal people. Does the government really think that we will just forget about it?
Mr. Chairman, this project has been shrouded in secrecy from its beginning. We do not know how the project was organized, how it was contracted, what work has been completed, and by whom. People have come and gone, and four years later we have nothing to show for all those involved.
Mr. Chairman, we have no idea of what the government has paid for this lack of action. We know that there has been a lot. Is this government interested in being accountable to the public for the expenditure of public funds? Is it spending a lot of effort to avoid accounting for the cost of the project?
I would like to know how a private business could survive under such management. I know that it is not acceptable from this government. The public needs firm answers, we need a figure, and we need to know if there has been anything worthwhile produced.
Mr. Chairman, I also want to make some general comments about the entire justice system in the Northwest Territories, because this is an area in which the territories should take a lead role in aboriginal self-determination.
Mr. Chairman, Members know that the issue of the application of the current justice system to aboriginal people, is an issue of great concern to me. I have been raising the need for change in this House, for many years. For example, three years ago, I made a statement in which I said that the so-called Canadian justice system must be changed so that the criminal laws reflect the cultural practices, and traditional ways, of Canada's aboriginal people. The legal system has been termed well intentioned colonially, but it is time that this practice ends. The legal system must serve the people.
Mr. Chairman, over the years, I have come to realize that aboriginal people will not be served within the present justice system. As I have said in the House, I am convinced that the only way that justice for aboriginal people can be assured, is through the development of an aboriginal justice system.
Mr. Chairman, my words seem to have fallen on deaf ears over the years, but I will keep on pushing. I believe that a separate aboriginal justice system is the only way to secure justice for our people. If anyone doubts that there is unequal treatment of aboriginal people in our present system, there are more examples of reports and inquiries completed that confirms injustice. I could mention, Donald Marshall, a native man from Nova Scotia, was convicted of a murder that he did not commit, and spent 11 years in prison for it. The report of the commission looking into the case said that they were convinced if Donald Marshall had been white, the investigation would have taken a different course.
In Manitoba, the death of J.J. Harper and Helen Betty Osborne caused an inquiry to be held on the justice system and aboriginal people. The very first sentence of the report of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry is "the justice system has failed Manitoba's aboriginal people on a massive scale."
In Alberta, a Cree trapper was shot in the back, and the man who did it was allowed to plead guilty to mans laughter, and received a full years sentence. The inquiry looking into the death was marked by attempts to block information from being heard.
We know that injustice has happened in the Northwest Territories. The case of Kitty Nowdlak Reynolds, an Inuit women who was victimized once by sexual assault, and a second time by the actions of the Crown Prosecutor and the R.C.M.P.
Mr. Chairman, these are only some of the people whose tragic situations have made the headlines. There are countless hidden tragedies. The Manitoba Aboriginal Justice Inquiry recommends that the federal and provincial governments recognize the right of aboriginal peoples to establishing our own justice system as part of the inherent right to self-government, and commit themselves to establishing a constitutionally protected aboriginal justice system. The Canadian Bar Association and the Law Reform Commission of Canada have formally supported the establishment of separate aboriginal justice systems.
The constitutional package that was recently reached by aboriginal leaders, territorial leaders, and the provincial and federal government would provide the framework for the incorporation of a third order of justice. A third order of government, controlled by aboriginal people.
We should be moving now, to examine the models on which a separate aboriginal system could be based.
In February, 1990, I made a statement about my trip to the Navajo Reservations in the United States, to look at the Indian Tribal Court System. I was impressed with their system, and the advances they have made. The reserve has its own aboriginal judges, lawyers, and police force. They have also been developing traditional methods to dispute resolutions, such as, using peacemakers to resolve issues rather than court system, in some cases.
Another model, is the Northwest Inter-tribal Court System in Washington State, as well, in 1989, there was a tribal courts symposium held in Manitoba. When those who attend, heard from several American tribal court judges and court officials, about how they run their courts, there were a number of tribes with populations similar to Canada's First Nations, who operate their own fully functional justice system.
I hope it is clear that we cannot just tinker with the present colonial system, in the hopes of having it represent aboriginal people better. We cannot do that. In my view, it is crucial to the development of aboriginal self-government, and the aboriginal administration of justice for our people. Aboriginal communities should be entitled to, en-act their own criminal, civil, and family laws, and to have those laws enforced by their own justice system. Certainly, it would also be possible for federal and territorial laws to be adopted, as well.
We have to ensure our people have respect for the teaching of elders, and for our traditional customs. This would not be any different from the traditional Canadian legal system, which is based on English common law.
Aboriginal people must be able to govern themselves in a similar way, based on our traditions, customs, beliefs and values. This must be the foundation of the development of an aboriginal system.
Mr. Chairman, there are no excuses to delay any further. The Government of the Northwest Territories is in a unique situation to take a lead role in the country, by creating a separate aboriginal justice system, for the aboriginal people of the north. It is time that we quit talking, and start acting.
I do not know how many more tragedies we need to witness, or how many more organizations, and inquiries, we need to hear saying that this should be done, before the government does something.
Committee Motion 176-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation No. 56
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 1110
The Chair Charles Dent
Mr. Gargan, we have gone past your ten minutes, did you want to seek unanimous consent to continue?
Committee Motion 176-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation No. 56
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 1110
Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
No, I am finished. Thank you.
Committee Motion 176-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation No. 56
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Committee Motion 176-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation No. 56
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
Mr. Chairman, part of the problem that I have, is that the if we talk about a separate justice system, and I think it is possible now, I think it is possible because of the very strong possibility, I hope, that the Constitution will be amended to include the third order of government, that aboriginal form of government. I think this would make a very strong case for a whole different form of government, that aboriginal people can develop themselves, which can include a different justice system.
My assessment of it is, that ultimately it is the aboriginal people, their elected people, and the communities that will decide that. Even if they decide it, it certainly will not be for some period of time. What are the choices? I think that is what comes at me from the Member's comments. Should we stop doing what we can to remedy the present system, and put all our efforts into coming up with a whole different aboriginal justice system, or should we bank on doing both? If there is a legitimate call from aboriginal communities for a separate justice system, established basis for it, then should we not, also, in the interim, do everything we can to lessen the pain, the suffering, and the alleged injustices that are occurring as a result of the present system. A separate justice system, at best, would be, at least, a decade away from being developed, or at least implemented.
Those are the comments that I wanted to make. What I see as a new Minister of Justice, is a lot of work, by a lot of people, to do preparatory work for making changes. We have a massive document, done by a group of very highly qualified people, who have given us the Gender Equality Report, which I think has massive amounts of recommendations that have been forwarded from people, from communities, and all walks of life. We have now, within a few days, I hope, the possibility of tabling the Family Law Review report, which the Member has been very frustrated in waiting for.
I have done a quick review of that report, and it seems to have been put together by, again, a massive amount of people at the community level, from the aboriginal organizations, support groups, and from every segment of our communities. It definitely has many of the elements that the Member has spoken on, on different occasions over the years, as I have heard.
As a new Minister, one of the problems that I have, and I appreciate Mr. Todd's dislike for talk, but I have not been prone to preaching about all the grand things that I am going to do. It is coming from a lot of different places, I can do that very well, I know myself well enough to say if you ask me to stand on the soap box and brag well in advance of doing anything, that is what I intend to do. I can do that. It seems to me that the biggest challenge that we still have is to accept that it is not going to be Steve Kakfwi or John Todd that is going to remedy, or come up with solutions, or Sam Gargan. But rather, it is going to come from the kind of approach we take. I have said it before, and I think it needs to be said over and over again, that ultimately, it is going to be in our making the commitment. I think blindly, but with full faith that the communities are going to come up with the remedies. The approach that is going to resolve many of these problems, that this is really a call on this government, and no other government, as far as I know, in the history of Canada for that matter, has ever done something like that, which is to say, we know we are not going to solve the problems. Somehow we have to jump into a situation where we are not in control, that we have to share the control where we have to, except that the communities are going to have to take ownership, and tell us what they want. We will have to assist them with resources for them to come up with the solutions. That, I think, is going to be the way we do it, and the call for a separate aboriginal justice system, is what, I think, the Member sees in it. The aboriginal people by themselves can do it.
My view, is that in the short term, we still have to ask communities what we can do to alleviate the staggering problems that we have, as people, about how our people are sentenced, what kind of support they have while they are incarcerated here, and what happens to them when they are let out. There is a problem of how children are treated in the court system, and how women are treated in the court system. There is staggering problems in corrections. For instance, I had a short visit to Fort Smith, where there is a correctional institute for women. There are women from the eastern Arctic there, and I asked the question, "how is it, in the cultural context?" They are in a community that is really not in their own country, they are at least a 1,000 miles away from their homes. They are, you know, the staff, the kind of staff that Inuit people would staff for corrections, if they were in control of it. Would the kind of programs, be programs that the Inuit people themselves, elders would say that this is what I think our Inuit inmates should have.
Those kind of questions jump out at me, and I know that there is a need for new correctional facilities to be built very soon, if we do not cut back on the amount of people who are being incarcerated. We asked the question, "are communities prepared and interested in sentencing with judges and J.P.s about, instead of sending them all to Yellowknife?" Are our communities, willing, interested, and able to take young offenders, for instance, and even adult offenders, to take responsibility for their own people, instead of handing them over to a court system, a justice system that was not of their own making?
I think I can answer those questions, and I say, but it is not the day to get up, and stand up, on a soap box. I believe, absolutely, that the justice system has to be changed, and it has to address the dire needs of women being treated fairly and equally. It has to be altered to adjust for the fact that there is massive violence in our communities against women and children. It seems lopsided for many of us, biased of property instead of people, biased towards women, and against women, and totally not adequately structured for the treatment of children. Many of our institutions, and acts, need to be altered. New acts need to be drawn up to focus on the treatment of children, for instance.
Committee Motion 176-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation No. 56
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 1110
Committee Motion 176-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation No. 56
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 1110
Committee Motion 176-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation No. 56
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 1110
Committee Motion 176-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation No. 56
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 1110
Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Yes, Mr. Chairman, if the Minister keeps continuing to make all these long responses, you are not going
to get a chance to go to Fort Simpson for the justice conference that is happening over there. One of the things, Mr. Chairman, that I talked about is that we are still doing the same thing that we have been doing time and time again, and that is, every time there is an aboriginal concern, we try to fit it into the existing system; somehow, piece it together in there.
It is difficult to do that, because aboriginal values differ from what is in the justice system itself. I could imagine the Family Law Review Committee and the turnover of people. We have a situation in which there are disagreements on both sides of the argument with regard to trying to fit custom adoption within the existing Child Welfare Act, perhaps.
I think that the only way that you resolve the whole thing, is to look at alternatives to what is there now. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 176-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation No. 56
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 1111
Committee Motion 176-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation No. 56
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 1111
Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha
Mr. Chairman, I move that we report progress.
Committee Motion 176-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation No. 56
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 1111
The Chair Charles Dent
Motion to report progress. It is non-debatable. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.
---Carried
We will rise and report progress.
Committee Motion 176-12(2): To Adopt Recommendation No. 56
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 1111
The Speaker Ludy Pudluk
Now this House will come back to order. Item 19, report of committee of the whole, Mr. Chairman.
Item 19: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 19: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
September 25th, 1992
Page 1111
The Chair Charles Dent
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, your committee has been considering Bill 33, and committee report 17-12(2), and wishes to report progress with seven motions being adopted, and Mr. Speaker, I move that the report of the chairman of committee of the whole be concurred with.
Item 19: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 19: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Page 1111
The Speaker Ludy Pudluk
Is there a seconder? Mr. Ningark. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.
---Carried
Item 20, third reading of bills. Item 21, orders of the day, Mr. Clerk.
Item 21: Orders Of The Day
Item 21: Orders Of The Day
Page 1111
Clerk Of The House Mr. David Hamilton
Mr. Speaker, meetings for Monday morning at 9:00 a.m. of the Ordinary Members' Caucus, and at 12:00 noon of the Special Committee on Constitutional Reform. Orders of the day for Monday, September 28, 1992.
1. Prayer
2. Ministers' Statements
3. Members' Statements
4. Returns to Oral Questions
5. Oral Questions
6. Written Questions
7. Returns to Written Questions
8. Replies to Opening Address
9. Petitions
10. Reports of Standing and Special Committees
11. Reports of Committees on the Review of Bills
12. Tabling of Documents
13. Notices of Motions
14. Notices of Motions for First Reading of Bills
15. Motions
- Motion 36
16. First Reading of Bills
17. Second Reading of Bills
18. Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
- Tabled Document 9-12(2)
- Tabled Document 10-12(2)
- Tabled Document 62-12(2)
- Tabled Document 70-12(2)
- Motion 6
- Committee Report 10-12(2)
- Committee Report 17-12(2)
- Committee Report 18-12(2)
- Bill 9
- Bill 31
- Bill 32
- Bill 33
- Minister's Statement 82-12(2)
19. Report of Committee of the Whole
20. Third Reading of Bills
21. Orders of the Day
Item 21: Orders Of The Day
Item 21: Orders Of The Day
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The Speaker Ludy Pudluk
(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Clerk. The meeting is adjourned until Monday, September 28, 1992.
---ADJOURNMENT