Just to comment on the Minister's comments. In regards to the budget, though, what I have indicated is, that I do not see the budgetary framework in front of us that would allow us to do that. I understand that the framework would have to be developed by the community, but I am saying that this year's current budget that we are discussing here, I do not see it in here. It is not reflected in the current budget that is in front of us.

Mr. Chairman, the reason for that is because we have no indication, yet, from communities as to what type of resources, or dollars, they may want in order to get into this exercise. So far, it has been the Department of Justice operating on the approach that, for instance, working towards justice committees, youth justice committees, in the communities is just sitting down with interested concerned people at the community level. Just by having discussions, without any immediate need for any money, we are doing it that way, and when, and if, there is some concrete indication of money that has been proposed by communities to assist with these projects, and if we agree that it is a practical way to continue the work, then at least it will start to show up right now.

Under the present budget, the Member is right. This budget just reflects what we need to run the system as it is now, and I think that the Member will realize that most of our money is in corrections, in policing, that when the communities look at corrections, eventually they will realize how much money is being spent in that area. I think that will help in our discussion about how communities can, perhaps, take care of what we are providing in corrections right now, as in the incarceration of the people, and the care that we are trying to provide to young offenders. As communities assume responsibility and authority over these areas, the budget will change to reflect that.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to continue on with my general comments, and spend a little bit more time because there are a number of comments to be made about the budget before us.

Again, these are points that I find, myself, repeating, year after year, each time another Minister of Justice appears before this House with the appropriation bill.

One thing I have spoken about previously, Mr. Chairman, is the fact that in many ways the justice system seems to be established to mystify the people involved, rather than ensure that they are well served by it.

I brought this issue up way back in 1988, if my memory serves me well, it was around February 25. At that time, Mr. Chairman, I commented on that, because a lot of my constituents do not speak English, they cannot understand what happens when they are served with court documents.

If you are summoned, and do not appear in court, you could be charged whether, or not, you understand the notice that was served on you. At that time, there were a number of instances in my communities where aboriginal people -- specifically Dogrib speaking people -- who had encountered legal difficulties in this area.

Mr. Chairman, I do not believe that this situation has improved very much since I raised the issue. With all these same communication problems, with the process that occurred with the Kitty Reynolds case, even the Minister's own special advisor on gender equality has recognized that this is a problem.

I would like to quote from her report, which the Minister has now tabled in the House, "As with many other types of professions, the law has developed a language that is particular to it. In some ways, this is understandable, and almost unavoidable. However, it creates immense difficulties for those who do not understand legal language, and for those who must interpret proceedings into other languages. It is difficult to teach lawyers and others who use legal language to leave the habit behind. However, the use of a plain language in the court room must be encouraged, and at times, demanded."

Mr. Chairman, this problem is not only the problem of the justice system in the Northwest Territories. I know that this was something considered by the world commission on the Donald Marshall prosecution in Nova Scotia. One of their findings was that, and I would like to quote from that report, "In our view, native Canadians have a right to a justice system that they respect, and which has respect for them, and which dispenses justice in a manner consistent with, and sensitive to, their history, culture, and language."

I also would like to note that the number one recommendation in the report of the British Columbia Justice Reform Committee was that the Provincial Attorney General should establish a senior level policy making plain language committee.

This committee was supposed to work with lawyers, the judiciary, and the government, in developing a strategy for the implementation of plain language in the justice system.

Mr. Chairman, I believe that our Minister of Justice should be taking the lead role in working towards a plain language approach within our justice system. Again, I do not see how this particular budget that we have in front of us, will accommodate this sort of initiative. I wonder if the Minister can comment on what I just said.

Mr. Chairman, one of the personal difficulties that I have had since assuming this department, and in particular, in responding to concerns and questions by the Members, is that I am trying to avoid sounding like I am going to brag, that now that I am the Minister of Justice, I am going to do all these great things. The fact is, I think most of the Members have made those views known very well, and I have taken at least one occasion to reiterate that is what I intend to do. The missing element, I think the Member is right, as long as we sit back and we comment, then nothing is going to happen, if I do not do something, and the Member does not get actively involved, three years from now, he is going to be reading off his comments he made just now, and saying nothing has happened. What has to happen, and we could do this almost immediately, if the Member wants to invite us, myself as a Minister and the department officials, to go to his constituency, to his communities, and begin meeting with the Dogrib communities to hear their views and help them address their concerns in regard to the delivery of justice, the administration of the justice system. We can do that right away. That is the thing that is very necessary, so I extend the offer to the Member, that we should do that and we should begin as soon as possible, so something will be done in the next couple of years. Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, I accept the invitation, but it is not only in the Dogrib communities that we are having the problems, in terms of trying to simplify the legal terminology and so forth. This initiative should be carried out by the department, right across the territories, not only in my region. The department should be taking the lead role in working towards a plain language approach within our justice system.

I agree to work with that. Aside from just making things simple, the fact is, the system is still going to stay the same. I think the Member has to understand that, in my view, I do not think that the Department of Justice, or officials in government necessarily see this as their system. It is just a system that is here, and there is a need for change. I think the department, the communities and this Legislature all recognize that.

The recent constitutional discussions all reflect that. Politically everybody accepts that there is a need for profound changes in the relationship between aboriginal people and the governments of this country.

Again, I think it is important, it is critically important that we recognize we cannot really make any changes until we engage the community in a partnership. I cannot, as Dene as I am, pretend to say that I know exactly what Dene want out there. I can sit in Yellowknife and conceive a plan as to how changes should be brought to communities. The best foolproof approach to making changes that are going to be wholly accepted and endorsed by communities, is if we do it in partnership with them. That is why the budget, as I say, is to maintain the present system of budget. The communities will know that when we get into discussions with them, that budget is there, and part of the community transfer initiative talks, the talks on community self-governments will provide to communities the knowledge and the offer that it is all up for discussion and that they will have the major say in the allocation of resources, and how things will be designed. Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, I understand what the Minister is trying to say, but if you look at your current budget, even though you want to pursue these initiatives through your other hat, Intergovernmental Affairs, we still need resources to carry out these initiatives. I do not see it in either this department or the other department that you are the Minister for. Where are you going to get your resources to undertake this work. That is what I am trying to figure out. If you are going to undertake this type of initiative, where are you going to get your resources from, especially when you are going to have community involvement, getting their views, etc. It all costs money. How are you going to manage to do that. I do not see it in the department's budget.

Mr. Chairman, if the Members felt we had to show a particular dollar figure to communities before we go and talk to them, I am sure it can happen. The problem is that communities will be somewhat distracted by the amount of money we offer because who is going to make that guess. Who is going to make the suggestion that in order for communities to take over justice, here is a $1 million available for all of the communities of the Northwest Territories. That is not going to be realistic. Politically, it could be very much of a distraction. In my view, as we get into the discussions on communities, for instance, assuming more responsibility in the area of justice, that following consultations which would be extensive and does not cost a great deal of money, that these figures will start to show up, perhaps even through a supplementary estimate. At this time, we are not in a position to do this. The Member should be assured that this is not a sign that we are not committed at all to this effort. In fact, it should be understood that what we are saying is very serious. The Members are almost unanimous in their view that a massive change, great changes have to be made in the area of justice. We have taken that view. We are also of the view that we cannot realistically give you a dollar figure to go in it, because we have not talked extensively to communities, yet. We have done some work in organizing workshops, in having meetings with communities and we have done it internally with just the staff and the staff budget that we have. When we start to hit new and extraordinary costs, then these will start to be placed in front of the Members. Thank you.

Mahsi. Mr. Chairman, I will conclude my general comments now but I have a number of points, specific points, I would like to raise when we go line by line. Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think the Member has brought up some really good points, and they are ones that I certainly agree with. I think they are also addressed in this Family Law Review Report that I mentioned earlier. While it is not tabled in the House, I will take the liberty of letting Members know that I think there are a couple of recommendations in it, quite in line with what the Member just suggested.

That is, that the traditional practice of aboriginal people in regard to adoption should not be legislated, it should be just recognized and respected for what it is. That custom adoption, as such, should be done through the traditional manner of allowing designated, respected members of the community to review and approve these adoptions. That there should be minimal, or almost no involvement of government and Social Services in this. There should be no extensive bureaucratic involvement, in the sense that the intent, on our part, will be to work towards that, and to make sure that, whatever paperwork has to be done, is kept to a minimum, and is simplified.

I think that the Member is quite right, and that is what we intend to do, and I think that, apparently, I have not discussed this with anybody, but that draft report reflects, as I am told, the views of many, many aboriginal people and organizations in the north. It is something that we will work on very strongly. Thank you.