I move that the committee recommends that the Department of Social Services develop a comprehensive capital planning strategy to guide the development of capital forecasts for the fiscal year 1994-95 and beyond.

Thank you. Your motion is in order. To the motion.

Question.

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Before I call for general comments, I wonder if the Minister would like to bring in her officials at this time? Minister of Social Services.

Mr. Chairman, yes, the officials are here.

Sergeant-at-Arms, could you escort the officials? Before we begin, Madam Minister, would you introduce your witnesses at this time?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On my left is Mr. Ken Lovely, Deputy Minister. On my right is John Doyle, Director of Finance.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Gargan.

General Comments

Mr. Chairman, I have a short comment. I wanted to express my appreciation to the Minister for visiting my constituency the weekend of the 6 and 7. I showed the Minister several single units that are being shared, the kitchen areas and the bathroom areas. Most of the senior citizens have their own, individual units but for some reason when the building was first constructed, it was built with the understanding that portions of the building would be used for number two care. This is not the case.

Most of the seniors in Providence are independent. They do everything on their own. I hope that you could look at doing some minor renovations so those units are individualized. Thank you.

Thank you. Madam Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. From what I understand with the Fort Providence elders' facility, it was built through the Housing Corporation. I would agree that those units that don't have private entrances have to be fixed. I will be discussing this matter with the Minister of the Housing Corporation. Thank you.

Thank you. General comments and questions. Mr. Koe.

I would just like to make some general comments. A lot of the issues that we raised over the last couple of years have been brought up in the report of the Special Committee on Health and Social Services that we just concluded. I would like to bring up a couple of issues that concern me and that have some impact on my constituency.

In the area of family and children's services, we mentioned foster care. There are a lot of concerns we have in foster care, the level of homes and the use of home in communities. We encourage this and even more, we encourage the use of aboriginal homes. There has to be a lot of work, development, training and coordination so that those homes that are available, and that meet the criteria that is required, can be utilized.

The area of custom adoption is another area that has to be looked at. I know a number of Members have raised specific concerns about that, but I just wanted to raise that issue. In terms of alcohol and drugs, the Inuvik region has a 12-bed treatment centre in Inuvik. For that whole region there are no detox facilities. I know it is in the five year plan to have some sort of alcohol and drug treatment centre, and I hope that those plans include detox facilities.

I know the Standing Committee on Finance made some recommendations last year. I hope that the department takes those into consideration in their planning. I hope there will be adequate consultation with the community and surrounding communities.

Another area in alcohol and drugs that I wish to mention is the use of training that is provided by different institutions. Currently, we put a lot of faith and focus on utilizing the people that are trained under the alcohol and drug programs. But, what I understand of that training is that it is not a comprehensive program. It doesn't have a lot of field work attached to it. People who have been trained through the Nechi program in Alberta seem more ready and fit to take on jobs in the community.

And, it is my understanding -- and I will be raising this at another level -- that this government doesn't recognize the Nechi Program and the certificates that people from that program come out with, trained as alcohol and drug counsellors. I would just like to raise that.

The other issue is elders. In my reply to the budget address today, I raised the issue that there is a need for a senior citizens' facility to include up to at least level three care in Inuvik. I will be pushing for that in the next round of capital planning. There have been letters written to the department in that regard and interest from various community organizations who are now starting to put a local committee together to do the research. Those are just some general comments I wanted to make. Mahsi.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Following on Mr. Koe's comments, I want to make a comment related to alcohol and drug facilities. It is fine to plan and build capital facilities -- and we finally have one under construction in the Baffin region -- but I have to alert the Minister and her staff that if something is not urgently done to address the wage scales of alcohol and drug workers, this facility in the Baffin region is going to have serious problems attracting staff.

I just want to emphasize the urgency of dealing with this issue, or we'll have a fine capital facility but inadequate staff or an inability to attract qualified staff to do a good job of running it. I'm very impressed with the facility. I'm very impressed with the work that has been done on the program, particularly involving families. But, I must emphasize again, that unless the wage scale issue is addressed urgently -- and the present wage scales do not take into account the cost of living in the Baffin or other comparable jobs that people can get -- this beautiful new facility is going to be crippled from the beginning.

I realize we're discussing a capital budget now and these comments may not be entirely appropriate, Mr. Chairman, but these capital facilities have to be staffed by capable people. The good investment in the facility has to be followed by good investment in training and staff, if we're going to make use of these very important facilities. I see this as a major issue that is going to have to be dealt urgently. If the Minister can make a comment on that issue, I would be grateful. Otherwise, I fear for the very survival of the program in the new Baffin regional facility. Thank you.

Thank you. Madam Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think, first of all, we should concentrate on completing the building because -- as I understand it -- it is still under construction. I agree that there is wage disparity among the alcohol counsellors. But we are dealing with the capital budget. I can not really talk about the operations and maintenance part of the building which has yet to be completed. Up until such time, I really can not make any further comments, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

General comments. Mr. Patterson.

Mr. Chairman, I understand the building is under construction but the target date for implementing the program is the new fiscal year. The problem that the department is facing now is, although funds have been set aside for training, the people who are considering taking up the opportunities for training want to know what kind of a job is at the end of the training. We're talking April 1, 1994 as far as I know. We're having real problems attracting people even to take training because the jobs at the end are simply not attractive to people who want to work in this field.

It is an urgent problem and it is related to the capital facility. We can't just wait to finish the building and say, we'll turn to the staffing problem later. It's got to be dealt with urgently now, as I see it, in order to even get people into the training programs so that we will be able to run the facility when it's completed. Thank you.

Madam Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Member always has a wonderful way of rewording what was said. I am aware that we do have a problem with wage parity -- not just among alcohol counsellors -- and the department is trying to do something about it. I'd like to thank the Member who keeps reminding me about it. I am certainly concerned myself, as the Minister responsible. I'm not taking this lightly. I take it very seriously. If there are extra dollars available, the first step I will take is to increase the wages of alcohol and drug workers. In times of restraint with no new revenues coming in, I'm having a very difficult time identifying extra dollars that the Member is speaking of. Thank you.

Thank you. General comments. Member for Thebacha.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The comments that I'm making haven't been made in SCOF because I feel that I wanted to save them for the House. In reviewing the budget for Social Services, I find that there is no support for shelter homes for individuals across the north. I'm fortunate that in my constituency there is a shelter home. However, there are many places in other areas of the north that do not have them. I believe that this department has to start looking at some mechanism to address them. I recognize that it's mainly done through O and M, but we've got to find some method to address them and there doesn't seem to be any funding in here. The only type of funding that they have is through contribution on family violence programs.

Having said that, Mr. Chairman, there is also a significant need for second stage housing in the north for battered spouses or whomever, so that they are able to leave these types of shelter homes and make the transition into society a lot easier. I believe there are only two second stage houses in the territories, one here in Yellowknife and one in Hay River. I can say that there are many communities that do need them. This department doesn't seem to have the planning to address it. I believe that they have to find a method in order to be able to address this.

The other comment that I want to make is there are so many different names for these facilities and there probably are different types of definitions. I think the department has to look at trying to streamline these types of facilities so that they can have names compatible to their needs. There's facilities such as emergency group homes, family group homes and different types of homes. It doesn't appear that it's clear to Members what the purpose of these institutions are.

Mr. Chairman, I did want to make another comment, though. When we get into the budget, I notice that there is funding allocation for an alcohol and drug treatment centre in Rankin Inlet. I certainly don't deny that particular region such a facility, but I believe it's the intention of the department to look at a nine bed facility. In my experience, in all the studies that have been commissioned for alcohol and drug treatment centres, nine bed facilities are not cost-feasible. I don't know whether the department has taken that into consideration. Institutions have to be at least a 15 bed facility in order to be cost-feasible. I'll probably be asking the Minister further questions when we get into that particular line by line.

Overall, I know there was concern expressed that there doesn't seem to be a comprehensive plan. I would urge the Minister and the department to start working towards a comprehensive plan to address the social issues we face in the north. Thank you.

Thank you. Would the Minister like to reply?