Thank you, your motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Arvaluk.

Thank you. I just wanted to know the definition of what is unacceptable. What do you mean, or what can be done using the word unacceptable?

Thank you. Who would like to respond to that question? Mr. Koe.

Earlier in the report we talked about zero tolerance for violence. The Minister of Justice tabled some reports and that statement on violence towards people. We feel that no violence and no abuse is acceptable. I think that's a stand that we have to take. Zero tolerance towards violence is what we're looking for here. No abuse, let the elders live in peace and live out the rest of their days. That's what we're looking for.

Thank you. Mr. Dent.

Thank you. To the motion. Mr. Lewis.

We are very good at coming up with nice-sounding words all the time, about something being unacceptable, but how do you put teeth into things like this. I read, about a year ago, that in 1920 because of a government's desire to have the rule of law imposed in the west part of the Northwest Territories, there were handbills sent around to every camp in slavic writing which said, you shouldn't kill people, it's wrong to kill people, you're not supposed to do that. If you do that, we know that there are punishments. If you do something that's wrong, then you are breaking the law. This one here is much more subtle than that. It's not a question of beating somebody up or stealing something -- because very often there's theft involved -- but it's a question of not treating people with proper dignity, just making use of people when it suits you to have them for a particular purpose. Like dumping kids on them -- I could just send them to the folks, they can look after them without worrying whether it was convenient for them or not. I'm talking about my own community now. I'm not talking about all the places that you visited. These are the kinds of abuses that are much more subtle. How can you say, it's unacceptable for you to just take off and dump your kids on the old folks without

giving them enough food to look after them, or enough money to look after them. It's much more subtle than just physical stuff or breaking the law, like stealing from them that which is rightfully theirs.

With all these recommendations, I can't imagine what a public education program would look like. How would you implement it? Where would it be done? Who would have to go to it? Would it be compulsory that you have to take an education course if you're found to be an abusive person? These words sound good until you look at them and say, how can that work? How are you going to make people take a public education program so that they understand this better. It just sounds good until you analyze it and say, how can this be made real. All the other stuff you can do something about. If someone is beaten up, that's obviously against the law. You can get charged for it. It's the same thing for stealing or if you kill somebody. It's against the law. But, all this other more subtle stuff is much, much different. I'm just wondering whether a lot of our recommendations are going to be no more than just nice-sounding words that you really can't do much to enforce, or will they make changes in our society that will make the difference.

I've got nothing against a lot of these recommendations, but every time I see one I want to look at the words to see if it could make a difference. Could it result in change? That's my problem with most of the recommendations that I'm reading. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Dent.

Thank you. To the motion. Mr. Whitford.

Thank you. To the motion. Mr. Koe.

Our whole report and our recommendations reflect what people told us and what we heard in the communities. People out there put a lot of faith and a lot of trust in us when we talked to them or listened to them, whether it was in big group meetings, public meetings or in private meetings. If we are not willing to discuss these issues at this level -- the highest level in the north -- then what chance is there for change? This is a chance to change attitudes in our society.

That is why a lot of recommendations are considered soft. We can't enact legislation but we have to take some leadership, we have to stand up and discuss them. That is what we have tried to reflect in this report. Thank you.

Thank you. To the motion. Mr. Ningark.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, when we visited communities in the eastern and western Arctic, when we met with different groups of people including elders,

there were visible pains and tolerance, especially on the faces of older people. When we told them that, once we had compiled information from different regions and we completed the report, we were going to make a presentation to the House -- the highest public form of government in the NWT -- there was a glimmer of hope on their faces.

If we can move forward just a little bit, at least we have accomplished something that people, and especially elders, have hoped for. If the wording is not economically acceptable to some of the Members, I guess we are open to suggestions. That's why we have made this report and we deliberate and debate the report. We need all the help we can get from the membership, either to approve the report in its entirety or to change some of the terminology which may not be forceful enough to get the government to act upon the recommendations. Thank you.

Thank you. To the motion. Mr. Dent.

Thank you. To the motion. Mr. Lewis.

Yes, I'll be brief, Mr. Chairman. I think that people know that what they do is unacceptable. They know that stealing from somebody is not normal. They know that being violent to somebody is not normal. People are aware that what they are doing is not right. It is very difficult to deal with people that are related to you. It seems to me, Mr. Dent's suggestion about the Guardianship and Trusteeship Act might be something that would be useful for us for us to look at, in terms of helping people defend themselves.

What I do know is that the guardianship acts in Manitoba, British Columbia and one other jurisdiction, instead of having somebody as a real guardian -- somebody that was suddenly appointed to protect you and look after you -- the tendency is looking toward a trustee. A trusted person that you know very well who could help you and act on your behalf. Not the old fashioned guardian where you put yourself in that person's hands; it is more of a trust relationship. That has happened in British Columbia. It has also happened in Manitoba.

We are still waiting, though, to see what the government is proposing in its guardianship act. The old one was completely unacceptable to people, where you put yourself in somebody's hands to do all your thinking for you and all your planning for you. If the new act of ours has something more like a trusted person taking care of you -- where it is more of a partnership and not a slave-master relationship -- to help you resolve issues, it would be much stronger.

I realize the committee didn't have the knowledge of whatever the government is proposing, but the big issue to me is how do elders get help to deal with these problems? How do they solve it? Very often they feel very sensitive and nervous about it. Sometimes they feel weak. And they don't want to face up to a big problem they don't know how to handle. I think you can have as much public education as you want. I think people know that it is not right. The big issue to me is how elders stop this. Maybe if they got the kind of help that such an act would propose, maybe that would be the solution. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. To the motion.

Question.

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Mr. Koe.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and thank you Members. If community-based care for elders is to be achieved, it is important to provide occasional relief for those who provide these services in the home. Respite care has proven to be effective. It provides a rest for care givers, while ensuring the continuity of home care. Respite care should be made available to families who care for elders and other family members with special needs. In some communities, such as Fort Simpson and Hay River, this is already being done using available hospital beds. It should also be available to elders who are looking after other family members such as custom adopted children, grandchildren or adult mentally handicapped children.