Mr. Patterson.

I would like to ask about this subsidy, Mr. Chairman. The municipality will bill the government for the subsidy to residential ratepayers. Who pays this subsidy? What is the source of those funds for the water and sewer subsidy? Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Menard.

Right now, the way the government is structured, the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs pays the subsidy to the municipality. It is a budgeted item. When the home owner has to pay his or her own water rates, the money is then transferred from DPW's budget to MACA to pay the subsidy.

Thank you. Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My question is to the Minister and his staff. We know the staff housing policy was announced in early December, after the main estimates were put to bed, and I think we can deduce that the additional subsidy costs for some 18,000 or 19,000 new residential water and sewer ratepayers has not been included in the main estimates which are before us. Do these main estimates which we are now reviewing include the additional costs of the additional water and sewer subsidy, which I understand ordinarily flow from the Department of Public Works through Municipal and Community Affairs? Are those amounts reflected in the main estimates which are before us today? Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Because the housing policy was going to be implemented sooner than we thought, we have reflected $2.5 million being transferred from DPW. Because of the delay of the implementation, we will be returning the money to DPW so they can continue paying the bills until the policy is implemented.

Thank you. Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Can I deduce from that answer the estimated incremental costs for the new subsidy for these 18,000 or 19,000 new residential tenants were $2.5 million?

Thank you. Mr. Minister. Mr. Menard.

Mr. Chairman, yes, it is $2.5 million.

Mahsi. Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think that is the extent of my questions in this area, although I have some questions about community lands. I want to make sure I understand this correctly before we leave it. If it had not been for this new staff housing policy, the incremental cost budget of $2.5 million, which I understand may now not may be fully realized this fiscal year because of the delay of the implementation of the policy, these incremental costs would not have been incurred. Is that correct?

Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let me explain the $2.589 million which was moved from DPW to my department thinking that the long-term housing strategy would be in place by April 1. It is not an incremental cost, the money was within DPW's budget and was moved to our department. Now we are going to have to give it back until such time as the policy is in place. There is no additional money set aside for the long-term housing strategy, it is just a matter of moving between two departments. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Patterson.

I apologize, Mr. Chairman. I thought I understood, but that last answer has told me I do not understand. Mr. Chairman, the new residential ratepayers will get a subsidy on their water and sewer. This subsidy will be paid by Municipal and Community Affairs. This is a new cost because of these new 18,000 or 19,000 ratepayers. Why is the Minister saying that in effect it is revenue neutral, that the money is only flowing from DPW to MACA? Is it not true that our government is picking up additional costs because these ratepayers are going under a subsidy program which would not have been paid to them if they were not paying their own water and sewer rates? Is that not a new cost, Mr. Chairman? Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is a new cost to our department, but it is not a new cost to the government. DPW traditionally paid for this subsidy. Thank you.

Thank you. Municipal operations and assessment on page 11-15. Total O and M $47.213 million. Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am curious about the statement, "To support community self-government additional emphasis is being placed on training and development of municipal representatives and officials. Structured workshops, courses and provision of resource materials are being used to support local governments." When you are talking about this, are you referring specifically to the mayor and councils? You are not referring to band councils in this case.

Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is primarily for hamlet councils, mayors and that sort of thing, but bands could be included if they ask for help from our department. Thank you.