This is page numbers 725 - 749 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 3rd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was languages.

Members Present

Mr. Antoine, Mr. Arngna'naaq, Mr. James Arvaluk, Hon. Michael Ballantyne, Hon. Nellie Cournoyea, Mr. Dent, Mr. Gargan, Hon. Stephen Kakfwi, Mr. Koe, Mr. Lewis, Mrs. Marie-Jewell, Hon. Rebecca Mike, Hon. Don Morin, Hon. Richard Nerysoo, Mr. Patterson, Hon. John Pollard, Mr. Pudlat, Mr. Pudluk, Hon. John Todd, Mr. Whitford, Mr. Zoe

---Prayer

Item 1: Prayer
Item 1: Prayer

Page 725

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Good afternoon. Before we get into the orders of the day, I have a message from the Commissioner of the Northwest Territories, the Commissioner is wishing the Premier Nellie Cournoyea a very happy birthday.

---Applause

I think we all join the Commissioner in wishing Ms. Cournoyea all the best on her 39th birthday.

---Applause

Orders of the day. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Mr. Todd.

Minister's Statement 47-12(3): Mine Safety Bill Committee
Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 725

John Todd Keewatin Central

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The mine safety bill committee was formed in December of 1991 to prepare a new mine safety bill and regulations. At that time, the unions representing the vast majority of unionized mine workers in the Northwest Territories refused to join the committee because they objected to the manner in which the committee was structured.

The committee is comprised of two representatives from mine management, one representative of employees from a non-union mine and one representative from the Union of Northern Workers who represents a small number of mine employees.

Despite the absence of organized workers, the committee has continued with its work and has been developing a new mine safety bill and regulations for close to one year.

To date, the committee has completed the drafting instructions for the new bill and has made substantial headway on the regulations that will accompany this legislation.

While the work of the committee has been admirable, this process does not address the views of all of the stakeholders concerned with mine safety in the Northwest Territories. The absence of organized workers in this process means that the views of a significant and important sector of the mining industry in the Northwest Territories are not being considered.

Like previous Ministers of Safety and Public Services, I have tried to explore ways that organized labour could be accommodated within the existing review process as a full and willing participant.

After a great deal of discussion with the president of the Northwest Territories Federation of Labour, an accommodation has been reached that will allow organized labour to participate in the development of this important legislation.

This agreement would allow the Northwest Territories Federation of Labour to nominate persons from organized labour to sit on the committee, the number to be equivalent to the membership of the committee as currently structured. The Federation of Labour would also be given the opportunity to review the proposed new act and the work done on the regulations to date and offer suggestions on how it can be improved.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to commend the president and executive of the Northwest Territories federation of labour for their efforts in bringing organized labour back to the table to review this important piece of legislation.

It is important to ensure, at the conclusion of this process, we have a good piece of legislation which ensures the safety of all mine workers in the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Minister's Statement 47-12(3): Mine Safety Bill Committee
Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 725

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Item 2, Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Lewis.

Yellowknife Guild Of Crafts
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 725

Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I note we failed to mark the passage of your birthday last week, Mr. Speaker. Of a similar vintage to yourself, Mr. Speaker, is an institution in this city called the Yellowknife guild of crafts. It was founded in 1946. Ruth Stanton was the first president. The first secretary was Mrs. Anderson-Thomson. The guild, in those days, was established because people were very interested in doing creative things with their hands in a place which, at that time, was very isolated. People lived under conditions which were much different than what they are today. Some people may be amused by the idea of people sitting down doing handicrafts for long hours on those winter nights. However, one of the things which happened with that guild, Mr. Speaker, which many people do not know of, is that Dr. Stanton on all of his travels throughout the Mackenzie Valley and up to the Delta, was instrumental in bringing the art work of many aboriginal

people to the attention of Yellowknife and the rest of Canada.

Mr. Speaker, this has been of interest to me. This is still something which is seen as elitist, something that is somehow irrelevant to the Northwest Territories because it serves only the interests of urban people who are bored and have nothing to do. Many of us do not see it that way. We have seen all kinds of very interesting things done there and I will be tabling a letter from that guild as they are very concerned about the future of this institution which has been around, Mr. Speaker, for about the same length of time as you have.

Yellowknife Guild Of Crafts
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 726

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Item 3, Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Arvaluk.

Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 726

James Arvaluk Aivilik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Personnel. The Minister should be aware that the high school in Coral Harbour will be proceeding with grade extensions to allow grade 11 students to remain in their home community. This expansion will likely require the addition of two more teachers. Many people in the community have raised concerns regarding the inadequate availability of government staff housing. They are wondering what arrangements are going to be made for housing these new teachers. Frankly, this is a problem which seems to occur every time program expansion or decentralization has been discussed in eastern Arctic communities. It has remained one of the biggest barriers to the establishment of the government infrastructure. Can the Minister of Personnel tell the House what he is planning to do to address the chronic shortage of housing for government employees, especially teachers, during the 1993-94 fiscal year?

Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 726

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Kakfwi.

Return To Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 726

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, I do not have the information available right now on the plans regarding the implications and requirements for the class extensions in that particular community. I will have to get back to the Member on that.

Return To Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 726

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Item 5, oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Arvaluk.

Supplementary To Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 726

James Arvaluk Aivilik

Like many other honourable Members, I would have no trouble supporting the principle that the GNWT should get out of the business of being a landlord for its staff. However, I cannot see moving quickly toward policy equalization when there are such great inadequacies of availability and condition of housing, which presently exist in our communities. Can the Minister of Personnel explain how his new staff housing strategy is going to deal with the critical shortage of staff housing and the poor conditions of old staff houses which still exist?

Supplementary To Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 726

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Kakfwi.

Further Return To Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 726

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, the inadequate number of staff houses available to government employees has been in existence for many years, even during the years when there was a very healthy accumulated surplus enjoyed by this government. Even as far back as 1987 or 1988, we had established that we needed, for instance in the Baffin alone, a few hundred staff houses just to catch up to present needs.

Over the years, the government has been trying to build sufficient units so staff could be reasonably housed within the communities where they are employed. There is a question as to how this staff housing policy addresses the present predicament of government. The fact is, we have been unable to make the commitment to provide sufficient money to increase the total allocation of staff houses to what is required. The staff housing strategy suggests, in the interest of the fiscal situation of the government at this time, we have to take a position that will make it possible for private developers to have some confidence in developing accommodation for people in the private market, as well as government employees who wish to rent from the private market, or to buy houses.

The government has said, through the staff housing strategy, we will make it attractive for people to buy their own houses. This will, in many cases, trigger an interest from the private market to become competitive in building units where they can lease to people at a competitive or even lower rate than what government is prepared to rent at. Also, if there are government guarantees for people to buy back their houses, it will give private developers a certain comfort in building units as they know there is going to be a market. Because of this, the private market will begin to develop. It is taking a different approach to addressing the problem we have. We do not have enough houses for staff, government employees, ordinary citizens and people of the Northwest Territories. Part of our strategy has been to suggest by taking the approach we do, we will make more units available for more people, staff and other residents of the Northwest Territories. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 726

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Supplementary, Mr. Arvaluk.

Supplementary To Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 726

James Arvaluk Aivilik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Minister of Personnel will then be able to write to the community education councils and inform them that the guarantees are available to build such houses and the teachers can be properly housed. The community education councils can then inform the public, especially the business sector, to proceed with the process of loan guarantees to build houses for government staff. Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 726

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Kakfwi.

Further Return To Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 727

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, we can, if we have not done it already, communicate with the community. I know it is standard practice, when class grade extensions are discussed in communities, to give some assurances that sufficient money, classroom space and accommodations are available. Again, I do not know the details of it. Those plans will not go ahead unless there is some assurance that accommodation will be made available. That can be done by the government committing itself to making sure units are built to provide and meet the requirements. More often, now, we are interested in accepting proposals from community corporations or private developers. We give them a guaranteed lease which will enable them to build the units and then lease to us. Some communication such as that can take place if it has not already been done in the course of discussions with the divisional board. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 727

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Item 5, oral questions. This is your last supplementary, Mr. Arvaluk.

Supplementary To Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 727

James Arvaluk Aivilik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Is the Minister making a commitment that he will be accepting proposals from the private sector from Coral Harbour, who want to build staff housing for the government?

Supplementary To Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 727

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Kakfwi.

Further Return To Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 727

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, where there is an opportunity for the government not to commit capital money and where there is a good reasonable proposal, either from a broad community-based corporation or private developers, as long as there is no objection from the community itself, the government is very interested in receiving proposals of that nature.

Further Return To Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Question 409-12(3): Housing Shortage For Teachers In 1993-94 Fiscal Year
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 727

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Koe.

Question 410-12(3): Status Of Proposal On Methods Of Transporting Housing Materials
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 727

Fred Koe Inuvik

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. A few days ago I asked the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation about the methods of transportation for housing materials. In one of the Minister's responses, he stated he is in the process of preparing a decision paper for Cabinet to consider barge companies having the opportunity to carry cargo, and whether we can ship materials in the Inuvik region by truck. Can the Minister please advise when he is proposing to deal with this issue in Cabinet?

Question 410-12(3): Status Of Proposal On Methods Of Transporting Housing Materials
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 727

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Minister.

Return To Question 410-12(3): Status Of Proposal On Methods Of Transporting Housing Materials
Question 410-12(3): Status Of Proposal On Methods Of Transporting Housing Materials
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 727

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will attempt to get this on the Cabinet's agenda prior to the fall session. Thank you.

Return To Question 410-12(3): Status Of Proposal On Methods Of Transporting Housing Materials
Question 410-12(3): Status Of Proposal On Methods Of Transporting Housing Materials
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 727

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Item 5, oral questions. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Question 411-12(3): Decision Process For Granting Education Leave
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 727

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Personnel. I am interested in finding out about the manner in which decisions are made for granting education leave. Will the Minister confirm that far fewer GNWT employees were able to take education leave this year in comparison to previous years? Thank you.

Question 411-12(3): Decision Process For Granting Education Leave
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 727

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Minister of Personnel, Mr. Kakfwi.

Return To Question 411-12(3): Decision Process For Granting Education Leave
Question 411-12(3): Decision Process For Granting Education Leave
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 727

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, short of scrambling to find the information, I will issue it to the Member, if the statistics show that, I will be able to confirm it. If they do not show it, then I will not be able to.

Return To Question 411-12(3): Decision Process For Granting Education Leave
Question 411-12(3): Decision Process For Granting Education Leave
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 727

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Supplementary, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Supplementary To Question 411-12(3): Decision Process For Granting Education Leave
Question 411-12(3): Decision Process For Granting Education Leave
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 727

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Mr. Speaker, I am not in possession of any statistics, this is why I am asking the Minister the question. Will the Minister determine to find out whether fewer employees were granted educational leave this year than previous years? If he does not know, would he take the question as notice? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 411-12(3): Decision Process For Granting Education Leave
Question 411-12(3): Decision Process For Granting Education Leave
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 727

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Kakfwi.

Supplementary To Question 411-12(3): Decision Process For Granting Education Leave
Question 411-12(3): Decision Process For Granting Education Leave
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 727

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Yes, I can do that.

Supplementary To Question 411-12(3): Decision Process For Granting Education Leave
Question 411-12(3): Decision Process For Granting Education Leave
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 727

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

The question has been taken as notice. Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Pudluk.

Question 412-12(3): Consideration Given For Years Of Occupancy Of GNWT Staff House At Time Of Sale
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 727

Ludy Pudluk High Arctic

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to add something to the question Mr. Arvaluk raised. This question is for the Minister of Personnel regarding housing. We are aware that housing, which is used by GNWT staff, was built in the early 1960s. Many aboriginal people have lived in the same units for 20 years. They have been paying for their units. If an employee wants to buy a unit which he or she has lived in for many years, would there be a decrease in the amount of the house? Thank you.

Question 412-12(3): Consideration Given For Years Of Occupancy Of GNWT Staff House At Time Of Sale
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 727

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Minister of Personnel.

Return To Question 412-12(3): Consideration Given For Years Of Occupancy Of GNWT Staff House At Time Of Sale
Question 412-12(3): Consideration Given For Years Of Occupancy Of GNWT Staff House At Time Of Sale
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 728

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, the Member asked if the staff housing strategy, which offers to sell units to government employees, presently considers the years of occupancy by a particular tenant and, in particular, the aboriginal tenant of those units, if this is going to be considered in deciding on the sale of such a unit to those employees. The present staff housing strategy does not take this factor into account.

Return To Question 412-12(3): Consideration Given For Years Of Occupancy Of GNWT Staff House At Time Of Sale
Question 412-12(3): Consideration Given For Years Of Occupancy Of GNWT Staff House At Time Of Sale
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 728

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Koe.

Question 413-12(3): Policy On Shipping Freight By Ntcl North Of Norman Wells
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 728

Fred Koe Inuvik

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Transportation. I understand there is a policy which requires this government to ship their freight by Northern Transportation Company Limited barges to any place north of Norman Wells. Can the Minister provide us with a brief explanation of this policy?

Question 413-12(3): Policy On Shipping Freight By Ntcl North Of Norman Wells
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 728

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Todd.

Question 413-12(3): Policy On Shipping Freight By Ntcl North Of Norman Wells
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 728

John Todd Keewatin Central

Mr. Speaker, I cannot speak specific to the policy. I am not aware of it. It is my understanding there is somewhat of a history involved where the GNWT had determined as part of their policy that they would support the NTCL operations. With specifics to Norman Wells, I am not in a position today to answer that question. I will take it as notice.

Question 413-12(3): Policy On Shipping Freight By Ntcl North Of Norman Wells
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 728

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

The question has been taken as notice. Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Patterson.

Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 728

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask some further questions to the Minister of Personnel regarding the matter of staff housing shortages in remote communities such as Coral Harbour. Mr. Speaker, I understand that the government's new staff housing policy will encourage employees in communities such as Coral Harbour to purchase their staff housing units. Mr. Speaker, given that there is, and he has just acknowledged it, a historical shortage of staff housing units in those remote communities, and given that employees who buy these rare staff houses might retire from employment or might sell the house to the private sector, how is the government going to preserve the short supply of staff housing already in place if they are allowing those houses to come out of the pool of scarce houses now available, by allowing employees to buy them and then retire or sell them to the private sector? How is that going to improve the staff housing shortage which my colleagues have just described with their questions? Thank you.

Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 728

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Minister of Personnel.

Return To Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 728

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, one of the elements of the staff housing strategy is to increase the rent which employees pay in all communities to a level where it would be more realistic and equal to what is provided at market rates in Yellowknife. Once that starts to happen, I believe community corporations and private developers will find ways in which they can offer to build staff houses at community levels and simply lease directly to, not only government employees, but other people who require houses.

The sale of staff houses makes it financially more attractive for government employees who want yet another alternative to renting. We have offered to sell the government units to tenants who presently occupy them and assure tenants, if they cannot sell to someone else in the private market, we will buy the unit back.

We do not have as much money available to us to provide not only staff housing, but also public housing and home ownership units. We did not have much money last year and we do not have much money this year. There is no certainty that the money we now have is secure because of the fiscal situation of the federal government. With the federal election, it may improve or it may get worse. This strategy is trying to address the situation we find in the communities where we need other elements and simply more government money being allocated to provide staff housing. We need to encourage private developers and community corporations to move into the housing market, and we need to attract tenants to become private home owners as well. We believe, by making it more attractive in those different areas, we will be able, under the present fiscal situation, to at least maintain the situation as we should. Thank you.

Return To Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 728

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Supplementary, Mr. Patterson.

Supplementary To Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 728

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Mr. Speaker, the Minister may know that it has been extremely difficult for private entrepreneurs and development corporations in the Baffin region to finance staff housing projects with the banks or with other financial institutions, even with the guarantee of long-term government leases. Now the Minister is saying that without that government guarantee of long-term leases, the Minister believes the private sector will step in and finance, take that risk, and build houses to rent directly to tenants. Has the Department of Personnel taken the time to consult with established contractors or native development corporations in the Baffin region to see whether any of those people would be prepared to take the risk of building houses on speculation for direct rental to government employees without the security of a long-term government lease?

Supplementary To Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 728

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Kakfwi.

Further Return To Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 728

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, the fact is the

different agencies which require houses, such as the divisional boards and hospital boards, will all be very interested in entering into long-term leases. There is no suggestion that we are discouraging that at all. I cannot say for certain that we have had extensive discussions with private developers as to whether these moves we are making to get out of staff housing and make it more realistic in terms of the rents which are paid, and making some moves towards home ownership more realistic, are going to be sufficient to meet the private developers' needs in the Baffin. I know that the Department of Personnel, alone, is not equipped to have those discussions. It would be done in consultation with the Department of Public Works. Because of the transition of this plan next year, it will also be done in consultation with the Housing Corporation. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 729

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Supplementary, Mr. Patterson.

Supplementary To Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 729

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I can inform the honourable Minister that I have approached established contractors in the Baffin region. I have been told that not only has the government not asked them about this proposition, but if the government did take the trouble to ask them whether they would be interested in this proposition of building houses for staff, they would be seriously questioning taking that kind of risk. Since the Minister speculates that the divisional board of education, the health board and like agencies would be prepared to enter into these long-term arrangements so developers would have the sort of financial security required to invest in staff housing in such a high risk, high cost environment as the eastern Arctic. Has the Minister and the department consulted with the Baffin health board or the Baffin divisional board of education about providing the kind of lease guarantees to the private sector in that region so that housing could be constructed in communities such as Arctic Bay? Have those consultations taken place with those regional boards? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 729

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Kakfwi.

Further Return To Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 729

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, the government has, for many years, at least 15 years, been postering outside the ropes, so to speak, to finally grapple with this beast which is the fact that there are vast inequities that exist in the way we treat government employees across the territories. We have no level playing field as far as what rents are charged, the conditions of houses, and the utility rates. There have been studies done, and the Special Committee on Housing touched on it. There have been task force reports which all say the same thing, the government should get out and do something about the inadequate levels of rent which have been charged. We finally decided to do something about it in January and it is going to be difficult. There are going to be a thousand little detailed questions and inadequacies which surface. I would suggest most agencies and most people would prefer to leave well enough alone, if you could call it that. I personally feel there are more injustices present in leaving the situation the way it is, than there are in existence in the strategy we have launched.

We are committed to carrying out the strategy. It is going to cause hardship for divisional boards. They are going to be pummelled by their employees. Employees are going to threaten to leave, they are going to point out their rental increase. Some of them are going to complain about the lack of notice and many other things. There is going to be some uncertainty about whether teachers will leave en masse and also if professionals will leave en masse. In my view, people will stay. I think they will listen to our debate in this Legislature and will take into account the points which are made. It is up to us in this Legislature to carry on a rational debate about what it is we are trying to do.

As I said earlier, we have people in the Northwest Territories who number up to 15 people in two bedroom houses. We have people who number up to 20 in three bedroom houses. We have houses which have doors with no doorknobs on them. We have houses which have no existing windows. We have atrocious housing conditions in existence now. In balancing that, the argument is, there is this potential saving if we pull out the strategy of up to perhaps $5 million which is now being allocated for the exclusive benefit and use of 1,800 government employees, 1,800 citizens of the Northwest Territories. We have 57,000 people in the Northwest Territories. Is this a fair way to use increasingly scarce resources?

Further Return To Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 729

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Point of order, Mr. Patterson.

Point Of Order

Further Return To Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 729

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Mr. Speaker, the honourable Minister's answer is so long that I am in danger of forgetting the question I asked.

---Applause

I wonder if the Minister could answer. He is making a wonderful speech, very eloquent. I wonder if the honourable Minister could be requested to answer the question. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 729

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

In this particular case, I think I was quite lenient with Mr. Patterson, allowing him quite a long preamble to his question and quite lenient to the Minister in allowing him quite a long response. The rules clearly state that both the question and the response should be quite short. I would ask all Members to try to live within the intention of those rules. Mr. Kakfwi.

Further Return To Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 729

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

In my long preamble, I indicated that the strategy has been many years in the making. People know we are going to get out of staff housing, it has been suggested numerous times over the years. We have introduced market rents in three of the major communities of the Northwest Territories. We have introduced utility user-pay for a number of years. I think divisional boards and health boards are aware that this strategy was inevitable. Specifically, we did not go to the divisional boards or health boards to ask

their opinion about whether we should do this. The government decided it was time to do it. The financial situation of the government compelled us to do it. The number of years we have left before the election also made it even more urgent to introduce this at the time we did. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 730

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Oral questions, Mr. Patterson.

Supplementary To Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 730

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am not going to ask for the same preamble as the Minister's reply because I know other Members may have questions. Mr. Speaker, I think the honourable Minister has said we have not consulted with the private sector, we have not consulted with the regional boards, but we expect that somehow they will put up staff housing units to meet this shortage. I would like to ask the honourable Minister, given that it really takes guarantees to the health and education boards that the government will back them up with long-term financial commitments rather than year to year funding if they are to make long-term lease commitments, would it not be appropriate to take the necessary time to establish regimes with the regional boards so that these commitments and guarantees can be worked out so that in communities such as Coral Harbour and Arctic Bay plans can be undertaken to meet the staff housing shortage before the pressures from the sale of housing to the private sector and from the retirement of employees worsen an already bad situation? Would it not be better to take the time to do the homework so a strategy can be in place to have the private sector build houses before the rug is pulled out from under the boards and teachers in the remote communities? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 730

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Kakfwi.

Further Return To Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 730

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, the strategy is intended to try to get the government out of staff housing. It is also intended to make it possible for people to get into home ownership by making staff houses available for purchase. We have also proposed to increase the revenue which this government makes by increasing the rents. Not only does it increase the revenue which this government makes from tenants by reducing the public liability in this area, but we believe it also moves towards making it more and more realistic. Perhaps not all developers would agree. This is all part of the entrepreneurial spirit. There is always someone somewhere who is willing and able to find ways to take advantage of new opportunities. Right now there are absolutely no opportunities, particularly in the Arctic communities, for any developers to feel they can put some of their money into developing houses and making them available for rent. We think the strategy begins to do this. Even if the fiscal condition of the government should improve dramatically to where it was back in the early and mid-eighties, there is no reason to believe we would address this situation any better. The strategy tries to address it by taking a many multi-faceted approach to addressing this problem, by

making input from the private developers in the communities more realistic. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Question 414-12(3): Staff Housing Shortage In Remote Communities
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 730

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Item 5, oral questions. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Question 415-12(3): Listing Of GNWT Employees Granted Early Retirement
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 730

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Government Leader. First of all, I would like to wish her a happy birthday.

---Applause

We will try to make it happy for you. Mr. Speaker, on September 10 of last year, Mr. Todd, when he was on our side of the House, asked the Premier to provide a listing of all employees at the DM and ADM level who over the last five years, had been given early retirement. The Premier indicated she would do so. As a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Todd asked to outline all the financial obligations associated with any special arrangements for these retiring staff. At the time, she did indicate the information would be provided, providing there were no other legal obligations that would prevent her from doing this. However, Mr. Speaker, when I went through Hansard from September onward, I found no information on the public record. In reviewing the records to see if any documents were tabled regarding this requested information, there has been none to date. Will the Government Leader provide this House with a full listing of employees at the DM and ADM level who, over the last five years, have been given early retirement? Thank you.

Question 415-12(3): Listing Of GNWT Employees Granted Early Retirement
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 730

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Madam Premier.

Question 415-12(3): Listing Of GNWT Employees Granted Early Retirement
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 730

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, my understanding is that the honourable Member is asking for some information. I would like to apologize that the information I promised to bring forward has not been provided. I thought we had done it. However, I will take her question as notice and provide the information. Thank you.

Question 415-12(3): Listing Of GNWT Employees Granted Early Retirement
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 730

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Pudlat.

Question 416-12(3): Reduction In The Prices Of Damaged GNWT Staff Housing
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 730

Kenoayoak Pudlat Baffin South

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Personnel. Did I understand correctly, were you saying that some public housing does not even have doorknobs or windows? If that is the case, would that be deducted from the mortgage they would be paying if they decided to purchase the staff house? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Question 416-12(3): Reduction In The Prices Of Damaged GNWT Staff Housing
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 730

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Minister of Personnel.

Return To Question 416-12(3): Reduction In The Prices Of Damaged GNWT Staff Housing
Question 416-12(3): Reduction In The Prices Of Damaged GNWT Staff Housing
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 730

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

(Translation) Mr. Speaker, the government employees who are presently staying in the occupied government housing are given the opportunity to purchase the dwelling. If there are any damages or repairs needed in the dwelling they are in now, the price would be lower than the market price. If the people occupying the dwellings are interested in purchasing the house, they can sit

down with the government and make an offer. The government will arrange to do an appraisal on the house and establish the market price for the house. The occupants can also be part of the appraisal. The cost of the house is negotiable according to the condition of the house. The Member who asked me the question regarding the market price of the house is correct in asking if there is damage in the dwelling, it could be repaired before resale. He is correct.

Return To Question 416-12(3): Reduction In The Prices Of Damaged GNWT Staff Housing
Question 416-12(3): Reduction In The Prices Of Damaged GNWT Staff Housing
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 731

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Whitford.

Question 417-12(3): Composition Of Mine Safety Bill Committee
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 731

Tony Whitford

Tony Whitford Yellowknife South

My question is in regard to a Minister's statement, from the Minister of Safety and Public Services, delivered to us earlier today. I am confused on the number of people who are going to be on that committee. One of the paragraphs say, "The agreement will allow the Northwest Territories Federation of Labour to nominate persons from organized labour, the number to be equivalent to the membership of the committee as currently structured." When I counted the number on the front page, there are two representatives from mine management, one from employees of non-union mines and one representative from the Union of Northern Workers. That comes out to four people plus the chairman. What would be the composition of this new board? Will there be, in fact, four union representatives to sit, in addition to those persons on there?

Question 417-12(3): Composition Of Mine Safety Bill Committee
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 731

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Todd.

Return To Question 417-12(3): Composition Of Mine Safety Bill Committee
Question 417-12(3): Composition Of Mine Safety Bill Committee
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 731

John Todd Keewatin Central

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The discussions and negotiations were delicate enough to get the organized labour to the table. I am pleased to say we were successful, with the support of the president of the Federation of Labour, in achieving that. It is our intention, between the parties involved, to negotiate an appropriate structure of the board and to ensure equal representation between organized and unionized workers and the mine management. At this time, I am anticipating four and four, three and three, but there has been no decisions made at this time. The current board has one unionized worker for the UNW, one non-unionized worker from Lupin, one mine manager is currently on it and there is another one who has to be appointed. I am hoping to accomplish, by discussing it with the different parties, some kind of compromise that will satisfy all parties and move this Mine Safety Act forward.

Return To Question 417-12(3): Composition Of Mine Safety Bill Committee
Question 417-12(3): Composition Of Mine Safety Bill Committee
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 731

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Supplementary, Mr. Whitford.

Supplementary To Question 417-12(3): Composition Of Mine Safety Bill Committee
Question 417-12(3): Composition Of Mine Safety Bill Committee
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 731

Tony Whitford

Tony Whitford Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I probably should have went on with a longer preamble and congratulate the Minister for breaking this log jam that two previous Ministers were not able to do, myself included, Mr. Speaker. He is to be commended for taking that gigantic step. However, it does state here that the number be equivalent to the membership of the committee currently structured. I thought it was already set that there would be four or more people on there. It still is not clear yet, Mr. Speaker, whether there is going to be four new union representatives, plus the existing one. I would like to have that clarified for constituents' interest, Mr. Speaker.

Supplementary To Question 417-12(3): Composition Of Mine Safety Bill Committee
Question 417-12(3): Composition Of Mine Safety Bill Committee
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 731

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Todd.

Further Return To Question 417-12(3): Composition Of Mine Safety Bill Committee
Question 417-12(3): Composition Of Mine Safety Bill Committee
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 731

John Todd Keewatin Central

I made a clear commitment to organized labour that they will have a balance of unionized workers and others on that committee.

Further Return To Question 417-12(3): Composition Of Mine Safety Bill Committee
Question 417-12(3): Composition Of Mine Safety Bill Committee
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 731

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Item 5, oral questions. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Question 418-12(3): Evaluation On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 731

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Personnel. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Personnel knows that one of the affirmative action priorities for this government is to increase the number of women working in non-traditional occupations. I am aware there has been some progress made by the previous and current Ministers of Education, Culture and Employment Programs in enhancing women in trades, training and apprenticeship programs. However, I am concerned about the lack of progress we seem to be making as a government in terms of hiring women into all non-traditional occupations whether they are management positions or trades oriented jobs. Can the Minister of Personnel indicate whether his department has evaluated areas where more progress could be made in terms of women working for this government in non-traditional occupations? Thank you.

Question 418-12(3): Evaluation On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 731

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Kakfwi.

Return To Question 418-12(3): Evaluation On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Question 418-12(3): Evaluation On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 731

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, I am not aware that we have done that work.

Return To Question 418-12(3): Evaluation On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Question 418-12(3): Evaluation On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 731

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Supplementary, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Supplementary To Question 418-12(3): Evaluation Done On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Question 418-12(3): Evaluation On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 731

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Mr. Speaker, sometimes with respect to trying to acquire that information, one of the main factors which prevent women from entering into non-traditional trades or occupations is the attitude of predominantly male senior management within our public service. Will the Minister take the responsibility to determine whether he can have this evaluation done in order to determine the amount of women attempting to enter non-traditional occupational trades programs? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 418-12(3): Evaluation Done On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Question 418-12(3): Evaluation On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 731

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Mrs. Cournoyea.

Further Return To Question 418-12(3): Evaluation On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Question 418-12(3): Evaluation On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 732

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, I know we work very carefully with the Department of Personnel. The honourable Member is correct in saying that women in trades fall very short of the objectives that have been set in the past. It has been two years since the document "Women in trades - a needs assessment" was completed. The document was developed by women in trades steering committee which included a representative from the Department of Personnel, the Equal Employment Directorate, the Department of Education, the Women's Directorate, Arctic College and the Department of Public Works.

Mr. Speaker, based on the findings and conclusions of the report, nine recommendations have been structured to identify the responsibilities and the specific action required. Mr. Speaker, as Members should know, there is a special advisor to the Government Leader, Bertha Norwegian, who proposes to do a follow-up with the GNWT departments as mentioned to determine what actions have and have not been taken. This responsibility has been given to the government's special advisor on women's issues.

Upon completion of the follow-up, a women and trades steering committee will be struck and one of the main objectives of the committee will be to outline implementation strategies based on the recommendations and, further, to identify what resources and time frames are required for the implementation. Mr. Speaker, this responsibility has been given to the special advisor so we can take an overall governmental approach, rather than a departmental one. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 418-12(3): Evaluation On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Question 418-12(3): Evaluation On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 732

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Supplementary, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Supplementary To Question 418-12(3): Evaluation Done On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Question 418-12(3): Evaluation On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 732

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Mr. Speaker, when does the Government Leader anticipate this work would be complete? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 418-12(3): Evaluation Done On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Question 418-12(3): Evaluation On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 732

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Ms. Cournoyea.

Further Return To Question 418-12(3): Evaluation On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Question 418-12(3): Evaluation On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 732

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, I believe the special advisor has begun to undertake the work now and hopefully by the summer it should be complete and we will have an evaluation to give those recommendations some weight within the government. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 418-12(3): Evaluation On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Question 418-12(3): Evaluation On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 732

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Supplementary, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Supplementary To Question 418-12(3): Evaluation Done On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Question 418-12(3): Evaluation On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 732

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Government Leader make a commitment to provide to this House the report and findings of the evaluation which she has requested her special advisor complete? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 418-12(3): Evaluation Done On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Question 418-12(3): Evaluation On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 732

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Ms. Cournoyea.

Further Return To Question 418-12(3): Evaluation On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Question 418-12(3): Evaluation On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 732

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Yes, Mr. Speaker, I believe it is anticipated that the findings of the special advisor would not be another study, but something to put together a time frame on how we can implement those recommendations which have already been put forward. I will provide that report. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 418-12(3): Evaluation On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Question 418-12(3): Evaluation On Women Working In Non-traditional Occupations
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 732

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Patterson.

Question 419-12(3): Effect Of GNWT Houses Lost Through Resale
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 732

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Mr. Speaker, I have a simple question for the Minister of Personnel. I am going to try it again. Employees have been offered the chance to buy staff housing in level II and III communities. What will the government do to replace a staff house needed for a teacher, if the employee buys the staff house and retires, or if an employee buys the staff house and sells it to the private sector. In both cases the staff house would no longer be available for other government employees. What will the government do if it loses houses through retirement or sales to the private sector? Thank you.

Question 419-12(3): Effect Of GNWT Houses Lost Through Resale
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 732

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Minister of Personnel.

Return To Question 419-12(3): Effect Of GNWT Houses Lost Through Resale
Question 419-12(3): Effect Of GNWT Houses Lost Through Resale
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 732

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

(Microphone not turned on)...It was just as well I did not turn the mike on.

---Laughter

Mr. Speaker, people who live in communities, both the staff and people who are privately employed, need houses. That has been a general problem we have identified with previous government approaches. We tend to isolate the way we treat government employees from the way we treat other people who are in need of housing in the communities in the Northwest Territories. We treat the people who live in social housing somewhat different from the way we treat government employees.

It is true government staff housing will be made available to be sold to people at the community level. It is true some of them may not be sold back to the government and will no longer be available to government. Certainly the house will be meeting a need somewhere else. Perhaps a former staff house may be meeting a need for a family who is just leaving the public service, who is retiring and was in dire need of a house to begin with. I think there is something justifiable in a situation such as that.

Of course, there is a concern that if out of a number of available staff houses, two should be sold to the tenants only to find that the tenants leave the employ of government and no longer wish to sell their units back to government. We have taken that into account. We think it alleviates the pressures on social housing and it begins to move people towards the creation of a private housing market. Yes, we have thought of it. It is not a negative concern. We think it is a development which will be in line with the overall strategy. We have to try to meet the overall housing needs of the community, not just government staff housing. Yet, at the same time, government will be prepared to make sure staff have an adequate number of units available to them, but not by assuming it will only be the government which is able to cough up the capital money and the money necessary to make sure that sufficient units are available to them for rent.

Return To Question 419-12(3): Effect Of GNWT Houses Lost Through Resale
Question 419-12(3): Effect Of GNWT Houses Lost Through Resale
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 733

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

The time allotted for oral questions has expired. Item 6, written questions. There is an instruction booklet, Mr. Patterson, on how to read the clock. Item 6, written questions. Item 7, returns to written questions. Item 8, replies to opening address. Item 9, petitions. Item 10, reports of standing and special committees. Item 11, reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 12, tabling of documents. Mr. Morin.

Item 12: Tabling Of Documents
Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Page 733

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to table Tabled Document 77-12(3), Government Services and Public Works contracts negotiated in 1992 and 1993. Thank you.

Item 12: Tabling Of Documents
Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Page 733

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Item 12, tabling of documents. Item 13, notices of motion. Item 14, notices of motions for first reading of bills. Item 15, motions. Mr. Lewis.

Item 12: Tabling Of Documents
Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Page 733

Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to return to item 12, tabling of documents.

Item 12: Tabling Of Documents
Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Page 733

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

The Member is seeking unanimous consent. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed, Mr. Lewis.

Revert Back To Item 12: Tabling Of Documents
Revert Back To Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Page 733

Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to table Tabled Document 78-12(3), a letter addressed to the Honourable Don Morin, Minister of Government Services and Public Works from Autumn Downey, the president of the Yellowknife Guild of Crafts which has 150 members. All these artists are not rich people, Mr. Speaker. The letter is in regard to the imminent termination of their lease agreement and request for information and assistance in finding alternative accommodation for the guild.

Revert Back To Item 12: Tabling Of Documents
Revert Back To Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Page 733

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Item 12, tabling of documents. Mr. Antoine.

Revert Back To Item 12: Tabling Of Documents
Revert Back To Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Page 733

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have three documents. Tabled document 79-12(3) is a letter which I wrote to the Honourable Kim Campbell regarding my disappointment and dissatisfaction with the actions of the Government of Canada in the renewing of the international arrangements of the cruise missile testing.

Tabled Document 80-12(3), is a letter from the Deh Cho Tribal Council to Honourable Kim Campbell.

Revert Back To Item 12: Tabling Of Documents
Revert Back To Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Page 733

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Do you have another document, Mr. Antoine?

Revert Back To Item 12: Tabling Of Documents
Revert Back To Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Page 733

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Yes. Tabled document 81-12(3), are some letters written from children in kindergarten to grade three from Nahanni Butte. They did them by themselves on the computers and there are some typos. I will read a few. One says, "Dear Jim, can you make the water better to drink to make juice? Can you make a well for us? Our water is not good because it is yellow and it stinks." This is from Dean Betsaka. I have a number of letters like this which I would like to table. Thank you.

---Applause

Revert Back To Item 12: Tabling Of Documents
Revert Back To Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Page 733

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Item 12, tabling of documents. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Revert Back To Item 12: Tabling Of Documents
Revert Back To Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Page 733

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Mr. Speaker, I would like to table Tabled Document 82-12(3), dated February 19, on the front page of Press Independent, a headline "Sexual Assault of Inmates in Hay River Youth Centre." Thank you.

Revert Back To Item 12: Tabling Of Documents
Revert Back To Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Page 733

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Item 12, tabling of documents. That concludes tabling of documents. We will go back to item 15, motions. Motion 18-12(3). Mr. Koe.

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 733

Fred Koe Inuvik

Mahsi.

WHEREAS the federal government has recently announced a ten per cent reduction in grants and contributions programs;

AND WHEREAS the federal government has informed the Government of the Northwest Territories that they intend to apply the ten per cent reduction to the Canada-Northwest Territories agreement for French and aboriginal languages;

AND WHEREAS this would mean a reduction of about one million dollars next year in contributions to language services and programs in the Northwest Territories;

AND WHEREAS the three year agreement which was entered into in good faith with the federal government is now being unilaterally eroded;

AND WHEREAS the proposed cuts will have an immediate negative impact on both aboriginal languages programs and the provision of French language services in the Northwest Territories;

AND WHEREAS the procedure used to advise the Government of the Northwest Territories of the cuts demonstrates a certain disregard for the terms and spirit of the agreement;

AND WHEREAS the proposed cuts will mean a delay in initiating approved projects funded under the agreement;

AND WHEREAS the action of the Government of Canada shows little regard for the official languages of the aboriginal people of the Northwest Territories as confided by the Official Languages Act;

NOW THEREFORE I MOVE, seconded by the honourable Member for Aivilik, that this Legislative Assembly strongly disapprove of the unilateral actions of the Government of Canada in cutting contributions under the Canada-NWT cooperation agreement for French and aboriginal languages in the Northwest Territories;

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 734

Some Hon. Members

Hear, hear.

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 734

Fred Koe Inuvik

AND FURTHER, that this Legislative Assembly supports the efforts of the Premier and the Government of the Northwest Territories in reinstating the full level of funding committed under the Canada-Northwest Territories agreement;

AND FURTHERMORE, that the Speaker convey this resolution to the Government of Canada. Mahsi.

---Applause

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 734

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Koe. The motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Koe.

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 734

Fred Koe Inuvik

I would like to speak to this motion. My concerns are fairly self-explanatory and have been stated many times and by many Members in many different ways in this House.

(Translation) We are all aware of the uniqueness of the Northwest Territories with respect to its official languages. We are also aware of the importance of promoting and protecting our language and heritage. Federal funding in support of these official languages is critical. (Translation ends)

We recognize the importance of the official status given to aboriginal languages of the Northwest Territories. We know we have a special obligation to preserve them. The federal government also has a legal responsibility and constitutional obligation to protect aboriginal rights of which aboriginal languages are fundamental.

Aboriginal languages are endangered. If these languages disappear there is nowhere else in the world where our youth will be able to learn the language again. The only place to preserve our aboriginal languages is here and now. We need support in this endeavour.

---Applause

We, in the north, have also been committed to upholding the official status of the French language. We recognize the importance of a united Canada and have consistently demonstrated this commitment in the provision of French language programs and services. We require the continued support of the federal government in our efforts to respect and uphold the official language provisions of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. This is a critical time in Canada's history. We are facing some very difficult issues with respect to unity. It is the wrong time to reduce support to the country's official languages.

I am deeply disturbed by the recent announcement regarding the ten per cent reduction to language funding from the federal government. I am troubled by a number of aspects of this situation. The federal government's method of determining the amount of the cuts seems arbitrary. The manner in which the federal government chose to inform the Northwest Territories of its decision disregards the good faith in which we entered into the agreement. The timing of the announcement makes it very difficult for us to make adjustments to our programs and services. This may create an unnecessary delay in approving the government's 1993-94 budget. The reductions will have a far reaching impact on the language and cultural programs and services of the Government of the Northwest Territories. An enormous additional effort will be required to rework allocations and proposals to the various departments to support their programs.

(Translation) I can appreciate the federal government's need to make tough economic decisions but I do not agree with the method used in this case. While across the board reductions may be the easiest way to reduce expenditures, it is seldom the most effective approach. (Translation ends)

If the federal government chooses to deal with their own expenditure reductions in this arbitrary fashion, that is fine. To simply pass it on is unacceptable. The manner in which the federal government chose to inform this government of its decision shows a total disregard for the spirit and intent of the funding agreement. The Government of the Northwest Territories entered into this agreement in good faith. We were counting on the federal government to uphold its end of the bargain. We believed that in signing this agreement the federal government demonstrated an understanding of our needs and our unique situation. We were obviously wrong.

It may well have been possible to negotiate a mutually acceptable solution, however the federal government has chosen to act unilaterally. I cannot understand this conduct.

The timing of the announcement will cause a significant delay in initiating approved or proposed projects. The agreed to contributions under this agreement are distributed across the entire government and territories.

It is obvious that a great deal of hard work was devoted to allocating these resources. If the federal government is not persuaded to reverse its decision, all of this work will have to be reworked.

A ten per cent reduction means approximately $1 million dollars which is a very significant amount of funding. If the federal government fails to reconsider this decision, many people in the Northwest Territories will suffer the consequences.

The programs developed with the Canada-Northwest Territories agreement funding are wide-ranging. Successful achievements can be found in school, community, linguistic, cultural and media-oriented programs. The funding provided under this agreement supports a wide range of diverse projects.

For instance, these funds have supported the delivery of translation and interpretation services. We depend on these services each and every day we sit in this Assembly. All departments rely on them in order to communicate with people in smaller communities across the territories.

These funds support communities in their efforts to maintain and revitalize aboriginal languages. Support has been provided through this agreement to aboriginal language programming on radio and television.

Programs have been developed to provide training for health interpreters and court interpreters.

Museum and heritage education programs have been developed and delivered to a wide range of citizens in the territories.

(Translation) Literacy awareness campaigns have been created to carry important messages to our youth. Our citizens have received public services in their own native languages. (Translation ends)

These programs and services are essential to the well-being of the citizens of the north. They are now being jeopardized.

The Government of the Northwest Territories has used federal contributions under this agreement wisely. An evaluation report, produced in 1991, concluded that, "The Government of the Northwest Territories acted judiciously in producing and implementing language training programs and in providing translation and interpretation services in the aboriginal languages during the period of this agreement."

The evaluation report says the funding provided under this agreement contributed to the launching of a board policy and program process pertaining to aboriginal languages.

We have laid the foundation and we need to keep building. The foundation provides a basis upon which to build a territorial linguistic future. A future where English, French and aboriginal languages have equal usefulness and respect.

The Government of the Northwest Territories is in a position to save and strengthen our languages which are still strong. We are still in a position to revitalize those languages which are in danger. In order to be successful in accomplishing this, we need to keep our original objectives in sight, have sufficient funding and have the resources to try innovative solutions.

The authors of the evaluation report go on to say that in 20 years many of these languages could disappear. We cannot allow this to happen. Aboriginal languages in the Northwest Territories are still viable, however they are at risk. Experience with other indigenous languages around the world warns us we are at a critical point. The alternatives are clear, act now or lose our languages.

I encourage Members of this House to join me in supporting the Premier and the Government of the Northwest Territories in their efforts to reverse the proposed federal government cuts. I urge you to support this motion today. Mahsi cho.

---Applause

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 735

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Koe. Seconder of the motion, Mr. Arvaluk.

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 735

James Arvaluk Aivilik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will be very brief as my colleague, Mr. Koe, has already articulated the points very well. I have seconded the motion because I am a long time advocate of the aboriginal languages for the purpose of preservation and promotion.

I could recount some of the aboriginal language promotions with the federal government during my term as ITC president when we initiated the language commission and the standardization of the syllabic writing system. The communication society, today called IBC, under my leadership came a long way with the support and leadership of the Government of the Northwest Territories and the other regional aboriginal organizations. We have become quite organized financially and in terms of management and promotion of our aboriginal languages. However, it does not seem fair and right when we get the people excited about our own languages and culture in the small communities that the cuts have been made.

(Translation) I would also like to speak briefly in Inuktitut. We have worked with the aboriginal languages for many years. Just recently everything has been falling into place and with the ten per cent cut, although it is only ten per cent, we know it will add up. I wonder what else will be cut which will affect the Inuit and the Dene. Funding cuts will affect the educational system. It will be something else which will be affecting the Inuit and the Dene, the aboriginal people. We are asking for support for this motion to go ahead. Thank you.

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 735

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Arvaluk. To the motion, Ms. Cournoyea.

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 735

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, I welcome this motion at this time. As a government we were shocked that a grant of this type would have been cut in this time of the world of the European indigenous people.

It is a difficult message to carry, particularly in this time of budget restraint. It has been a difficult message to carry over a number of years by other representatives of this government in their negotiations with the federal government. Unfortunately, other than French and English, other requests for support, particularly for aboriginal languages, is deemed as a luxury. Funding could be allocated if everything else is taken care of.

Mr. Speaker, I believe a message has to be given about the importance of language, the language of the peoples. There is very little left in this world today that people can say, "This is mine. This is what I stand for and this is what I can do. This comes from my past and this is what I am today." That is the language. This is a fundamental, emotional and required type of inside requirement for a person to survive in the world today when everything else seems to be falling apart. This is where, above everything else, you can aim to say, "This is where I come from." How we get that message across is going to take a concerted effort in this time because of the fundamental requirements that people have themselves, and the perceived requirements of what is more important by other people who are making the decisions on what we fund first.

I believe we have to work to get that message across. I know it will not be easy, but above all I think it is important to try to express why language is important. A person can only survive if they feel good about themselves. Language creates identity and it creates a feeling that someone is something and somebody. I do not believe anyone has found a way to express that in a way that it can be acknowledged by the people who are holding the purse string of this country.

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate we have a big job to do and I appreciate the acknowledgement of this Legislative Assembly on the importance of this matter. Thank you.

---Applause

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 736

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

To the motion, Mr. Pudluk.

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 736

Ludy Pudluk High Arctic

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In February, when we were discussing this issue about the proposed cut of ten per cent, I was very shocked. Ever since I became a Member in 1975 we have always used different languages in the Assembly. The way it is progressing, it is getting better. They will never stop using the different languages. The aboriginal and French languages, are going to lose some funding, it is obvious, so in our future we will have great difficulties. This agreement was toward the aboriginal and French languages. The federal government stated then that legislation must be written into French. That is why the agreement became reality then. Before everything was completed with this agreement in place, we had to have an act in place.

The federal government is not following this act and now they are cutting the funds again. They are destroying this agreement themselves. We do not want to be treated this way by the federal government. We just do not want to be played around with since we were here first, but now the federal government is saying this is how we are going to do this. Once we start using that act, they make cuts. It is very unfortunate for us to go through. We know the language act has to stay the same as this.

If the federal government keeps cutting our funding, the employment will keep going down in the north. We use different languages in the territories. If the federal government keeps cutting our funding for language programs, I am sure we will be facing difficulties in the future. For instance, an aboriginal person needs an interpreter in court. More aboriginal people within the communities are using their aboriginal languages within the work place.

Today we are facing another problem. For instance, if I was to stop using my own language within the house or at the work place, my self-esteem would keep going down. Mr. Speaker, I am in support of the motion for the reasons that the aboriginal people will not keep losing their own languages. More French people are moving north, especially to the Baffin region. Many of them do not speak English. I am sure the French language will also be heard. Whenever the federal government comes to an agreement with the territorial government and says it will carry on with its promises, later on it breaks its promises.

Mr. Speaker, I wanted to make a brief statement. I would like to thank the Member who made the motion. The federal government has to be aware that the language programs within the north is one of the hardest things to deal with. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 736

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

To the motion. Mr. Pudlat.

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 736

Kenoayoak Pudlat Baffin South

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I know a cut of ten per cent sounds small, but it is a very large amount. I always use my native language in the House because it is my first language. I always use the interpreters. We should not be losing our own languages. When we are progressing forward, the Canadian government is proposing to cut again. They do not seem to remember their agreement. They should have consulted with us first before they proposed to make the cut. There are many different languages in the north. Aboriginal people's languages are very different from each other. I would also like to thank the Member who made the motion. If they are going to keep doing that, it will be very bad for us in the north. I am in full support of the motion. I also want all of the Members to support the motion. Thank you.

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 736

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Pudlat. To the motion. Mr. Patterson.

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 736

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My riding of Iqaluit is not French, however, there are a great deal of French speaking people there. I wish to speak French today. During the 10th Assembly we decided to recognize French as an official language in the Northwest Territories. In response, it was understood that the Government of Canada would furnish assistance for the native languages which represent the majority of our population. I remember Mr. Nerysoo succeeded in negotiating the amount of $16 million for native languages at that particular time. We now see a diminishment of this agreement, Mr. Speaker. My Francophone voters have insisted that the support for the native languages be equal to the recognition of French. (Translation ends)

I was very pleased when in August, 1991, the Honourable Robert Decotret along with the Honourable Titus Allooloo announced their agreement on a renewal of the Canada-NWT cooperation agreement for French and aboriginal languages in the Northwest Territories. That announcement took place in my constituency of Iqaluit and, in fact, the agreement was officially signed in August, 1991, in Pond Inlet.

Like the ones which proceeded it, in which Mr. Nerysoo took the lead for the first time for our government, he was the elected leader of the Executive Council, and that agreement was the result of very long, arduous negotiations on the part of Mr. Allooloo, his officials and representatives of the Francophone and aboriginal language communities in the Northwest Territories. Now it seems that the Minister of Finance has intervened with budget cuts to violate this agreement.

I would like to take a moment, Mr. Speaker, to recite as my honourable colleagues have mentioned that there is a very long history to this issue.

In 1984, this Legislature was threatened with a unilateral amendment to the NWT Act to officially recognize French as an official language. I vividly recall warning Mr. Munroe, who was then the Minister of Indian Affairs and representing the federal Cabinet on this matter, that if the unilateral amendment was forced on us without our consent and without corresponding attention being paid to the aboriginal languages it would amount of a declaration of war on our people. I will never forget Mr. Munroe's reply, which today is perhaps ominous. He said to me, "Dennis, we have more tanks than you." Mr. Speaker, we sorted out that confrontation, reason prevailed and in the spirit of cooperation, but not without great difficulty, this Legislature agreed to official recognition of the French language in our own legislation. It was actually done when we sat in Fort Smith later that year, but in return for a solemn promise to support the aboriginal languages.

The promise of enhanced funds to assist in the development of the aboriginal languages made this decision easier to accept. We made that decision in good faith on the strength of what had been promised. The 11th Assembly went further and gave official status to the aboriginal languages. Mr. Speaker, as a Member of this Legislature at the time these agreements were devised and the legislative commitments were made, and as a participant along with Mr. Nerysoo in the negotiations of the first cooperation agreement for French and aboriginal languages in the Northwest Territories, I want to say again, I feel betrayed by this cut. We must insist as a matter of fairness, honour and respect to history that these cuts be restored. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 737

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. To the motion. Mr. Dent.

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 737

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to add my support to this motion and express my concern over the arbitrary reduction in funding under the Canada-NWT cooperation agreement for French and aboriginal languages. Mr. Speaker, our jurisdiction is unique in Canada and perhaps in the world in its official recognition of so many languages. The importance of language services and programs in the Northwest Territories are evident in our own House with the provision of simultaneous translation in all eight official languages. Even the United Nations only provides official translation in five languages.

The Canada-NWT cooperation agreement for French and aboriginal languages is to provide us with the funds necessary to implement various language projects and programs. Our commitment to the preservation of aboriginal languages and cultures, and our responsibility to provide French language services for the substantial Francophone community in the NWT will be seriously jeopardized by the proposed cuts to the agreement.

Mr. Speaker, it has been suggested that many of the social ills faced by aboriginal peoples in the NWT and across this country are linked to the disappearance of their culture and language. For this reason there has been an emphasis placed in the NWT on the development of aboriginal language programs in the schools and the establishment of the official languages commissioner. The sort of arbitrary cut that we are now facing has become all too common an action of the federal government. It represents a particularly insidious form of off-loading.

This government, the GNWT, enters into negotiations with the federal government in good faith, signs the deal in good faith, and then has the rug ripped out from under their feet part way through the deal. The last minute notice of this cut is particularly offensive. This resolution will demonstrate to the federal government our dedication to the essential language programs and services in the Northwest Territories and I hope, will persuade them to reconsider the cut in funding. I urge all Members to vote in favour of this motion, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 737

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Dent. To the motion, Mr. Antoine.

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 737

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. (Translation) I fully support this motion we are currently discussing. I grew up as an aboriginal person and my first language was my language. Whenever I use my language I feel comfortable with it and I am proud of it.

When I first started school I felt uncomfortable speaking in English so at times I used to used my own language. Whenever you look around here everyone is using their own language I feel happy about that. It seems as if we are the only ones ahead of everything using our own language.

With the support of funding from the federal government we continue to hang onto our language. Now they are saying they are going to cutback by ten per cent. I think if that happens it will be very difficult to continue promoting our language. I am fully against this. It seems because of the cutback, the federal government does not think what we are trying to do is all right. Without even telling us, they are putting this cutback on us. Even though the federal and territorial governments had already agreed to this three year agreement, now it seems they do not respect this agreement and they turn around and change it without even notifying us. This is why I am standing today in support of this motion. I wish for all of you to vote yes to this motion.

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 737

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. To the motion, Mr. Lewis.

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 737

Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Possibly this afternoon in the matter of Mr. Patterson, I can show example that I am capable of using the two official languages, albeit that the use may be slightly weakened we need a little encouragement.

Mr. Speaker, I have not prepared a text for today because we are discussing a political subject, a question of emotion. A subject which on the other hand is a subject of a sacred trust.

The cuts taken announced by the Conservative government, the cut of the contributions to the provinces for official languages is the result of a fiscal and political decision. As far as I am concerned, it is a slap in the face, it is a treacherous act. The cut of ten per cent, Mr. Speaker, a machine can do that. It is not the result of an intelligent decision or a human decision. We have, nonetheless, had in Ottawa capable and intelligent politicians. It is unbelievable that in an election year, a Conservative government would cut this kind of program, official languages support. Why did this government decide to reject this sacred trust and agreement in this particular year? It was part of Brian Mulroney's platform in 1984 and in the following election. Maybe, Mr. Speaker, we have arrived at a very poor end of this century. Possibly this Conservative government has decided that linguistic subjects or questions are not sufficiently important. As far as I am concerned, it is a very serious mistake. (Translation ends)

Mr. Speaker, I feel strongly that in our jurisdiction, as our leader has pointed out and as Mr. Patterson our former leader has pointed out, language has a very distinctive place in our culture. We have a very distinctive northern culture. In many senses we are like a laboratory which is often looked at by the rest of the country for those people who think about such things as an example of how complex issues such as this can be resolved.

We deal not with two languages, but with eight. People who I bump into in different places across this land are absolutely amazed that we can actually do business using that many languages, whereas in the rest of the country there is a huge fight about two. I think it is a betrayal that this government at this time has suddenly decided you can just make an across the board cut on something, which to us in the Northwest Territories is a matter of a sacred trust which was undertaken because of the kind of example we set to the rest of the country. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 738

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

To the motion. Mr. Zoe.

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 738

Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. (Translation) Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak today in support of the motion respecting the recently announced ten per cent cut to the Canada/Northwest Territories cooperation agreement for French and aboriginal languages. I would like to talk to this motion. (Translation ends)

The Conservative government in Ottawa, with these latest cuts to aboriginal languages, has yet again proven its outright disdain for aboriginal culture in this country.

Mr. Speaker, it was only two years ago that the tories disregarded the critical cultural importance of aboriginal media in this country by slashing funding support and thereby destroyed many native newspapers in this country. Mr. Speaker, our very own Native Press right now is nearing financial collapse as a result of losing its federal funding two years ago.

(Translation) So, Mr. Speaker, some speakers spoke in support of this motion, and I agree with all of them. They are quite correct in what they have to say. The way this motion is written, when it comes to a vote, I will vote in support of the motion. I will support the motion. Thank you.

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 738

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. To the motion. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 738

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all, I want to commend Mr. Koe for bringing forth this motion, which I feel is critical for the people of the Northwest Territories, particularly for the people who speak an aboriginal language. Many of the people in our communities depend on the services provided by the Department of Culture and Communications to address aboriginal languages in the north. Mr. Speaker, I am disappointed that the federal government indicated to officials they were going to be given a reduction in services or funding on the aboriginal languages and that we could lose about $1 million in contribution funding.

Mr. Speaker, I am concerned that there seems to be a growing trend of the federal government to do this and we accept this type of behaviour. It has been done with our housing, health, the forestry agreement and I do not know what other off-loading type of financial commitment they once made to the people of the north and are now cutting back. This government has to take some drastic steps in regard to making the government in Ottawa aware of the critical need for some of the services they are cutting back. I would even suggest this government consider having Cabinet Ministers and Members of the House who speak aboriginal languages fluently sit down in a meeting room with the Minister and start speaking one so they realize how critical it is to understand the

aboriginal languages that we have and the services that we need so we can understand what the people of the north want.

---Applause

I believe, until we take drastic steps or drastic measures with the federal government, they will not take into consideration or even attempt to understand how we need these critical services and how we need the funding to provide these services to the people of the north.

I believe this motion is to be commended. I wish the government well in trying to convince the federal government that we cannot take a ten per cent reduction for services. The territorial government or Legislative Assembly will not allow this type of action toward us. I wish the government well in trying to obtain this funding. Once again, I thank Mr. Koe and Mr. Arvaluk and commend them for bringing forth this motion. Thank you.

---Applause

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 739

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mrs. Marie-Jewell. To the motion. Mr. Nerysoo.

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 739

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is interesting to note that probably all the Government Leaders who have been involved with this business, with the exception of Mr. Sibbeston who is no longer a Member, today there are six Members present who were actually present at the original debate that occurred, including yourself, Mr. Speaker, when we met first in Fort Smith in 1984 and then reconvened the session to deal with the matter of the languages agreement in Yellowknife at Sissons school.

The motion which has been put forward today has, once again, joined all Members at this House on an issue of significant concern to the people of the Northwest Territories. We have not had, for many days or weeks now, an issue that could allow us all to join forces to express our own personal feelings and our views about an issue of such significance to the people of the Northwest Territories. I think this motion has, once again, brought together Members of this House to rise to the support of all people in the Northwest Territories, particularly to the support of aboriginal people, in protecting and supporting the preservation of their languages.

I read, with interest, the remarks and comments that were made as far back as 1984, when we got into this particular issue. I was glad Mr. Patterson raised the meeting with Mr. Munroe, because many people do not realize that is when it began. I was called to Vancouver to speak about an important issue that Mr. Munroe, who was Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs at the time, thought was insignificant in his mind, but was very significant in the minds of the people of the Northwest Territories and the aboriginal people particularly since there was a suggestion to amend the NWT Act to protect French and English as the official languages of the Northwest Territories. He was surprised that the people of the Northwest Territories would not accept that particular argument once he came to the Northwest Territories to meet with the Executive Council at that time, or once he met with the Assembly Members.

It was quite clear in our meetings, by the expressions of Mr. Curley, Mr. Patterson and Mr. Sibbeston that they would not accept the arguments which had been proposed by the Government of Canada, that our aboriginal languages were as much a factor and as important as French and English in terms of the manner in which we provided services and dealt with each other in our aboriginal communities. I think it was quite clear, at that time, the importance of the aboriginal languages and the need to protect the aboriginal languages in any agreement reached with the Government of Canada. That was quite clear in our debate. It was quite clear in the expressions which were made by Members of this House.

This particular agreement came not as a result of some political deal, it was far more important than that. It was an attempt on the part of past Legislatures, past Members of this House, to articulate very clearly the need for aboriginal languages to receive the same kind of attention that both French and English would be receiving. It was our attempt to convince the Government of Canada that they had an interest. They had a moral responsibility to help us improve, enhance and develop our own aboriginal languages, particularly the Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs. There was a need for him to come on side to support the efforts of aboriginal people because it was his duty in the House of Commons to protect the interests of aboriginal people.

It is unfortunate, Mr. Speaker, as the Government Leader, Ms. Cournoyea has indicated, that at a time in the year when we are supposed to protect the interests of aboriginal peoples throughout the world, we find a government that is not prepared to protect the interests of aboriginal peoples for whom they have the legal and constitutional responsibility for. They are walking away from aboriginal people. They are walking away from an agreement which has seen great strides taken in the protection of aboriginal languages.

This Assembly is a model that many people look to in Canada when they debate the matter of languages. People in Sault St. Marie are arguing about whether they should put signs on their highways in French or give out tickets that are written in French. Here we are, Mr. Speaker, as you look around our gallery and in this House, we have the ability to present to the country an offering of eight languages of which six are aboriginal. I think this country should be proud of that. Instead, they back away from an agreement that shows they do not take a great interest or take a great responsibility in helping us to protect our aboriginal languages. I think that is an insult and is totally irresponsible.

The motion which has been put forward is one that, in my view, is timely and I think it has brought Members of this House together on an issue that we feel deeply emotional about. It is an emotional issue because it strikes the heart of our own people. For that I want to thank Mr. Koe and Mr. Arvaluk. I think Members of this Assembly support the Government Leader, I certainly will, in getting the Government of Canada to live up to its obligation which they signed in 1984. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 739

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. To the motion.

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 739

An Hon. Member

Question.

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 739

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Question has been called. Mr. Koe, you have the opportunity to conclude debate.

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 739

Fred Koe Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to thank all the Members for expressing their opinions and their support in the various languages which they spoke in. I hope this message from this Assembly to the federal government is loud, clear and unanimous. Mahsi. Qujannamiik. Merci.

---Applause

Mr. Speaker, I would request a recorded vote.

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 740

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

A recorded vote has been requested. All those in favour, please rise.

Recorded Vote

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 740

Clerk Of The House Mr. David Hamilton

Mr. Koe, Mr. Antoine, Mr. Whitford, Mr. Lewis, Ms. Mike, Mr. Pollard, Ms. Cournoyea, Mr. Kakfwi, Mr. Morin, Mr. Todd, Mr. Nerysoo, Mr. Pudluk, Mr. Patterson, Mr. Arvaluk, Mr. Pudlat, Mr. Dent, Mrs. Marie-Jewell, Mr. Zoe.

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 740

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

All those opposed, please rise. All those abstaining, please rise. Eighteen Members voting in favour, no Members voting opposed and no Members abstaining. The motion is carried unanimously.

---Carried

---Applause

Thank you. We will take a short recess.

---SHORT RECESS

Motion 18-12(3): Legislative Assembly's Position On The Federal Government Cuts To The Canada-nwt Cooperation Agreement For French And Aboriginal Languages In The Nwt
Item 15: Motions

Page 740

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

I call the House back to order. We are on item 16, first reading of bills. Mr. Pollard.

Bill 20: Loan Authorization Act, 1993-94
Item 16: First Reading Of Bills

Page 740

John Pollard Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I move seconded by the honourable Member for Baffin Central that Bill 20, Loan Authorization Act, 1993-94, be read for the first time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Bill 20: Loan Authorization Act, 1993-94
Item 16: First Reading Of Bills

Page 740

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Pollard, your motion is in order. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Bill 20 has had first reading. Item 16, first reading of bills. Mr. Kakfwi.

Bill 18: An Act To Amend The Public Printing Act
Item 16: First Reading Of Bills

Page 740

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, I move seconded by the honourable Member for Nunakput that Bill 18, An Act to Amend the Public Printing Act, be read for the first time.

Bill 18: An Act To Amend The Public Printing Act
Item 16: First Reading Of Bills

Page 740

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Your motion is in order. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Bill 18 has had first reading. Item 16, first reading of bills. Mr. Nerysoo.

Bill 19: An Act To Amend The Student Financial Assistance Act
Item 16: First Reading Of Bills

Page 740

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I move seconded by the honourable Member for Keewatin Central that Bill 19, An Act to Amend the Student Financial Assistance Act, be read for the first time.

Bill 19: An Act To Amend The Student Financial Assistance Act
Item 16: First Reading Of Bills

Page 740

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

The motion is in order. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Bill 19 has had first reading. Item 17, second reading of bills. Item 18, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters: Tabled Document 2-12(3), The Justice House - Report of the Special Advisor on Gender Equality; Tabled Document 3-12(3), Report of the Commission for Constitutional Development; Tabled Document 49-12(3), Long-Term Staff Housing Strategy; Bill 5, An Act to Amend the Social Assistance Act; Bill 12, An Act to Amend the Mental Health Act; Bill 17, Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94; Minister's Statement 34-12(3), Long-Term Staff Housing Strategy; Committee Report 10-12(3), Report on Tabled Document 21-12(3): Payroll Tax Act; Committee Report 11-12(3), Report on the Review of the 1993-94 Main Estimates; appearance by members of commission for constitutional development, with Mr. Whitford in the chair.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

General Comments

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

This committee will come to order. What is the wish of the committee? We were reviewing the Department of Justice, registries and court services, page 06-14. Is it the wish of the committee to continue with general comments? Agreed?

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

All right. Would the Minister like to have his witnesses appear? Sergeant-at-arms can you please escort the witnesses. For the record, we are not on general comments. Page 06-14, registries and court services. Mr. Minister, would you please introduce your witnesses for the record.

Department Of Justice

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Geoff Bickert, deputy minister and Mr. Mike Rudolph, director of finance and administration for the Department of Justice.

Registries And Court Services

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you. The Department of Justice, page 06-14, registries and court services, total O and M, $7.845 million. Agreed?

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 740

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed Corrections

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 741

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Corrections, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 741

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, I would like to make some comments on corrections.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 741

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

I had asked for total O and M for registries and court services and there was agreement. I moved over to corrections. Do you wish to return to registries and court services? Registries and court services is concluded. Corrections, total O and M, $19.727 million. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 741

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, the Minister has tabled a document with regard to the strategy of corrections. Does he intend to bring that document into committee of the whole for further debate? Thank you.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 741

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mrs. Marie-Jewell. Mr. Minister.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 741

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, I can make a motion to move that tabled document into the committee of the whole.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 741

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 741

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister a question with respect to the corrections division requesting this money. I know that Justice have just taken over corrections from Social Services. Can the Minister advise this House with respect to the inmate population and the funding being requested to operate these correctional centres, is the trend on a continual level where these correctional centres are still over-flowing with inmates? The bed spaces are still inadequate for the correctional centres which we have in the north. Thank you.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 741

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mrs. Marie-Jewell. Mr. Minister.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 741

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, the general trend is that we will continue to have difficulties with over-flow. Projections are that we will require additional beds in the next few years. This is what the statistics show and the other statistics we use to indicate what future needs will be.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 741

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 741

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

I had another question for general comment, Mr. Chairman. Sometime ago there was an advisory committee made up of elders and people with respect to assisting the Yellowknife Correctional Centre on the inmate population. Is this committee still in existence for the Yellowknife Correctional Centre?

I wanted to make another comment, Mr. Chairman. The Yellowknife Correctional Centre has always had the reputation of being over populated. It appears that it is very difficult now with different crimes in comparison to years ago when most of the crimes were, not only alcohol related but, mainly break and enters or minor crimes. However, the trend seems to be changing in the territories. I am wondering if the Minister is considering other options for programs with respect to the correctional services. Is he looking at giving any type of consideration toward a penitentiary in the north, where more of the hard core type criminals can be incarcerated in the north?

I wanted to make another comment. We have three correctional centres, the Yellowknife Correctional Centre, the South Mackenzie correctional centre, and the Baffin correctional centre. It seems we try to keep these inmates as close to home as possible, however sometimes the crime committed does not allow for that.

I know of many inmates who have gone to southern penitentiaries and there does not seem to be any type of indication from this government to look at a penitentiary in the north. I would like to know what the Minister's viewpoints on this particular issue are to avoid sending inmates south. Thank you.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 741

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mrs. Marie-Jewell. Mr. Minister.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 741

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, I mentioned to the Members the other day that in January I had a meeting with the Solicitor General, Mr. Doug Lewis, to discuss the situation with federal inmates in southern institutions who are people from the Northwest Territories and are serving time, usually two years or more. They are serving time in about 25 different institutions in the south. The large majority of them are not high-risk, dangerous, or violent types of offenders. They are people from the communities who through a momentary lack of judgement or because of abuse of drugs or alcohol or because or personal problems, have committed crimes that are of a serious nature.

The Solicitor General and I discussed the idea that we should explore, without making any initial commitments, of finding a way which would make it attractive for the federal government to look at providing some money to the territorial government to take care of northern people who are serving time in southern penitentiaries. We could bring them back up here and provide facilities in the Northwest Territories so we could take back the majority of the inmates in the south, people who we can provide good programming for, people who should be moved back to the north because this is their home, people who should not be in southern penitentiaries that provide programs which are not suitable for these types of inmates who are, culturally, totally out of their element. The federal Minister said he was prepared to make a commitment to have his staff meet with our officials to investigate that proposal. The first meeting of officials will happen during the month of March.

In our view, there is no interest at this time in looking at a federal penitentiary in the north, for a great number of reasons. One is simply that there is not a large number of hard and difficult to rehabilitate type criminals who come from the north. For the most part, we feel this type of people would be better served going to southern institutions where it is possible to provide specialized counselling and treatment for people of that nature.

The master development plan we discussed at the previous session with Members, tries to address a systematic way of looking at the present facilities we have. The plan tried to address the limitations they have and the possibilities they present for the increasing number of people who will be incarcerated in the years to come. It has a built-in component of how to use the rising interest from community groups and community leaders to take responsibility for both adult offenders and young offenders at the community level and how we might use existing resources and existing facilities to the maximum. That is what the master development plan helps us do.

Members should also know we are looking at ways in which we can try to meet the interests of communities which want to help in dealing with their own people, whether they are young offenders or adult offenders. Communities are interested in taking some responsibility for sentencing and providing adequate programs for these people who will be serving time. They also to see what could be used from the aboriginal way of life. They want to use sentencing out on the land and cultural values and perspectives that aboriginal people have to try to help these people. That is the context in what we are working in right now, so there is a very real attempt to try to put it all together. Thank you.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, can we ask the Minister what programs are being offered within the Department of Justice for the corrections division that will be offered in the correctional centres? Thank you.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mrs. Marie-Jewell. Mr. Minister.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, there is an extensive list of different types of programs which are provided to the institutions across the territories. They vary from region to region and from institution to institution. We will provide the Member with that list.

I missed a couple of elements to the Member's question earlier. She was referring to a group of elders which was set up some time ago to provide themselves as a resource group to the Yellowknife Correctional Centre. That group of elders still exists and they still do some work at the Yellowknife Correctional Centre. The Yellowknife Correctional Centre, as far as I know, is still over populated. To what extent at this time, I am not certain.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Corrections. Mr. Pudlat.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

Kenoayoak Pudlat Baffin South

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. While we are on the topic of corrections, I have a comment to make. During the year of 1992, I tried to transfer two inmates from provinces into territories corrections. I am aware there are more than two inmates who are presently in penitentiaries. The inmates in the penitentiaries keep facing difficulties. I am aware the correctional centres within the territories are not big enough to facilitate the rising number of inmates. I know it is very difficult to transfer inmates from penitentiaries to facilities within the territories. For those reasons, we need a penitentiary within the territory because this is an ongoing problem.

The second comment I would like to make is, sometimes the inmates are brought down to the penitentiaries even though they are not hard criminals. I feel there should be a better system for those people who commit serious crimes to be able to stay in the territories. There was an incident last winter where they found an individual who froze to death. These are not my questions, but these are just my comments. I feel there should be a better system in place in the territories for these people who commit serious crimes to stay in the territories. Thank you.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Pudlat. Mr. Minister, did you wish to respond?

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When we talked with the Solicitor General, the general expression we gave him was we want to bring back inmates from the north who are serving time in the south. We want, as a government, to be able to provide facilities here if the federal government will cost-share it with us so we can design the facility, operate it and provide the kind of programming we feel is adequate and beneficial to our people. We specifically said to the federal government that we are not interested in talking about a federal penitentiary, which would be an institution, and programs designed and run by the federal government. That was not the answer. We wanted to have the federal government share the cost with us to build an adequate facility in the Northwest Territories and look at bringing all federal inmates to the north, who are not high risk or people who may be a danger to themselves or other inmates. The majority of people who are serving time down south from the north, can be provided with more than adequate facilities and programming in the territories.

The Minister had no difficulty with that proposition. In fact, he agreed to work with us on this issue. He took particular note of the fact that at least 60 per cent of all inmates from the north who are serving time down south are Inuit.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Antoine.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 742

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Mahsi, Mr. Chairman. On the Department of Justice, I just wanted to comment on corrections and the discussion of having a penitentiary in the north. I think we need an institution such as that in the north. The reason for that is, there are people who commit crimes in the north and are given two years less a day just so they do not get exposed to the hardened criminals. There is one particular case in my constituency where a young person was killed. The person who did it got two years less a day, so he would not get sent down south.

People in the community are very dissatisfied with it because there were people from the community who committed minor crimes, let us say break and enter, who received five years in the penitentiary. This young person who committed this act received two years less a day so he could stay in the north. The people in the community are saying, "Does that mean it is all right to do that sort of crime in the community?" They have a larger fine for doing a break and enter than for killing a person. The reason why he got two years less a day is they did not want to send him down south to be exposed to hardened criminals in the penitentiary. People in the communities are very dissatisfied with this reasoning. I am not telling judges what to do, but this is a concern which was raised to me by my constituents. Based on that, and probably other reasons, we need to have those kinds of institutions in the north, so we can take care of our people who are down south, to bring them back up in the north. I see a big flaw in the entire justice system because of that. I would like to hear a response from the Minister on this issue, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 743

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Mr. Minister.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 743

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, I know there are many things that go on in the Northwest Territories which raise questions in people's minds, particularly of aboriginal people. The way the justice system operates has always has raised questions about why the system works the way it does. In a nutshell, the system is foreign and is not one that northern or aboriginal people readily identify with. I know there are sentences made which often raise questions. I know there is no answer to it and I will not try to explain it. It is not my place to explain the goings on of the courts and the way in which sentences are passed. The increasing involvement of community leaders and people in the administration of justice, in the passing of sentences in the courts, has been increasingly encouraged and welcomed. It is not only welcomed by the Department of Justice but also by the Crown prosecutors across the territories, by the judges and by the RCMP. People know the way the system works, the system where a law is used, interpreted and administered by a judge, defence lawyers, prosecutors, with and without juries, is not something which is working. The corrections system needs massive work done in order to make it something which is relevant and useful for the majority of people who get into the system.

I am of the view that until we begin this work and there is some substantive movement to get people involved in the sentencing, to provide adequate resources to communities so that they can take increasing responsibility for the incarceration of young and adult offenders, both in open and closed custody, these types of questions will continue to be in the minds of many people in the north.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 743

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Antoine.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 743

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am not sure if the concern I have falls under the category of corrections. This is a situation which was brought to my attention. I have been aware of it all along, however, it has been brought to my attention this past weekend. It is the whole area of banishment from the communities. I know of three particular cases in my constituency where men who have been charged with different crimes, and through an arrangement with the courts it might be the justice of the peace and the RCMP, are banished from their communities until their court dates.

In one of my communities there is this man who was banished for over one year. Once they are banished they must fend for themselves in another community. It causes hardships on the person as well as the community or camp which he decides to be banished to. In this particular case this man was banished to Fort Simpson, he then went to a bush camp for awhile and now he is down in the Fort Norman area. His court date is not set until May.

Recently another young man was banished from a community and he is in Fort Simpson. He is living around the community sleeping at different people's homes. Another man who is also banished from his community is travelling around the country and he is broke. It is not a very good system. We do not know if a person who goes to another community is going to be welcomed. He may be welcome for a couple of weeks but when he stays for months it gets very difficult, to take care of them, especially if they have no income.

In a couple of the cases the young men are the ones who provide wood and water to their parents. To take that away you are not only making the young man who is banished from the community suffer you are also making the whole family worry about him, they experience anxiety until their court date. It is a very difficult system which we have and it is totally foreign to the Dene people.

It is very hard to understand what this justice system is about especially when you treat the whole family like this. It has been going on for years. It is done on a more regular basis now. Because Fort Simpson is the centre, people who are banished from the smaller communities automatically go to Fort Simpson. It becomes very hard for the people in the communities as well as the individuals. They have to endure this until the court date. In some cases the court dates are postponed indefinitely. This is a very difficult situation. I am wondering if the Minister is aware of these situations. Is there something in place that deals with the situation or are we stuck with this indefinitely? I would appreciate if the Minister can respond to this, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 743

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Mr. Minister.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 743

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, the Member points out a problem which arises when people commit offences which are usually committed against another person. For instance, in cases of spousal assault or assault against members of the family or the community, it has been practised for many years that if a person should beat up his common-law wife or his wife, that the wife and the children are taken by Social Services out of the community to ensure their safety and well being. Women have complained about this for many years, wondering why they become further victims of the system. In cases where there is support from the communities and sometimes from the perpetrator, if the offender agrees the best recourse at the time could be an order placed prohibiting that particular offender from being anywhere near the person or the community where they committed that offence, so the community or the persons they have committed an offence against can have some peace and security. In many aboriginal societies, banishment was a common practice, you were no longer welcome in your family or community if you committed crimes of a serious nature, crimes against your own people. Banishment was usually almost fatal because the individual was left out on the land with absolutely no support or contact with people. Banishment is now being revisited by many communities. We have not worked out all the kinks yet. For instance, we expect that many communities will make the

suggestion that they may use the idea of banishment, but provide their own support, facility or program to those people who are banished from the community, so these individuals are not, as in the case of the Deh Cho, unwittingly placed on the streets of Fort Simpson. Communities should be supported when they accept the idea of banishment. Also, we need some support for resources to take care of those people who are banished, before sentencing, if their sentencing included banishment, to help carrying out that sentence. I know the Member is correct, it does create some problems. It bring about problems when we do not carry out this sentence because it creates undeserved hardship on the individuals who become afraid and intimidated as the individual who has committed these crimes is still wandering the streets, sometimes too close for personal comfort and security.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 744

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Antoine.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 744

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to thank the Minister for those comments because he touched on a very interesting point. Banishment, traditionally, was done by the entire community. If this is going to be included in the correction system, I would support that, but in these particular instances, banishment was imposed by the justice of the peace in some cases, the RCMP. It is not coming from the community. It is difficult for parents, the family and the entire community to understand in these instances.

The problem is that people who are banished from the smaller communities go into the major centres. The major centres do not have any programs to help these people and there is no support. This one individual was stuck in a community. He asked me personally for money to help him. Of course, I could not give him money. He said, "They sent me over here. How am I supposed to live?" It is very difficult for people like that, especially if there is no program, no support of any sort. This particular issue, where people are not allowed to be in their communities because they have been charged and are waiting for court, which may be two or three months down the line, is very difficult. They go to another community and there is no support, no place to stay and so it becomes very difficult on the individual and that individual's family, as well as the community that this person chose to be in. Is there any program that the Department of Justice has in place at this time to correct this problem? Thank you.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 744

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Mr. Minister.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 744

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, the fact is, where people commit crimes or are charged with spousal assault, traditionally, we often take the victims and the children out of the community. We fly them out to other communities that have programs or facilities available to them. Social assistance is provided to these victims. There are some cases where it is the offender, the person who is charged or has been sentenced, who is prohibited from being present in the community where they committed the offence.

We can check into the specific cases that the Member is referring to and make sure that there are provisions made to these individuals. For instance, when they should be given social assistance, if that is what they are eligible for, but we would also be interested to see what we could do with communities. For instance, the Deh Cho region, if they should propose, we could sit down immediately to have a talk about any interest they may have in providing facilities and support systems for people like this. I would be very interested if the Member would suggest a meeting with some leaders in his community to discuss this, because courts and agencies are starting to move this way. The number of people who may end up going to larger regional centres, such as Fort Simpson, are not going to diminish. It may increase. It may be a very good time now to do something, at least start discussing this development with a view to come up with something that would address the situation.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 744

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Are there any further comments on corrections? Mr. Pudluk.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
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Page 744

Ludy Pudluk High Arctic

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a question with regard to the Baffin correctional youth centre for youth offenders. Many offenders are at the BCC and their relatives do not usually have money and transportation to visit them. It is very costly to travel from one community to the other. One relative tried calling one of the inmates in the BCC and when that person called their relative, the correctional officer would not approve the call. I want to know if a correctional officer is able to do that? Is there a policy for them not to receive calls?

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 744

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Pudluk. Mr. Minister.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 744

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, the correctional centres that I have visited are all learning facilities, particularly the young offender's facilities and the adult correctional facilities are ones that have programs where the offenders have schedules from the time they rise in the morning until they retire in the evenings. The facilities all encourage contact with families and communities, but they do not encourage calls to be made in or out of the facilities by inmates or by families at any time of the day or week. It does cause problems with the scheduling and staff making sure that people are not running back and forth to phones all day. I do not want to over-exaggerate it, but just to keep it simple, inmates and families are encouraged to phone only during certain times so inmates are available and phones are made available to them for their use only at certain times of the day and week. That has been the practice for some time. I know it creates difficulties when people in small communities do not have ready access to phones or the only available times are certain hours of the day, but this is the current practice and that is why some of the people in the small communities have difficulties. That is the way those facilities are run.

We have received requests from time to time, to look at ways in which we can help families of young and adult offenders visit to provide support to the inmates. These types of suggestions are made, but we know there are not adequate resources to entertain these suggestions, so we have not responded to them. Thank you.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 744

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Pudluk.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 744

Ludy Pudluk High Arctic

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate your

response and I thank him. However, those people who are trying to call in from other communities should be informed of the hours they can call in and have it explained to them. The person I got this information from said apparently the staff at the centre, they did not even tell that person whether it was possible or impossible to talk to the individual. Apparently he was told "Do not call here again", even though he was trying to talk to a relative inmate from another community. He was trying to call a relative at BCC and he was told "Do not call back." Of course, that person was upset. I thought they were following a policy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Pudluk. Mr. Minister.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, I would be very happy to sit down with the Member and check out this particular incident or allegation to make sure it is addressed right away if it did happen. I am prepared to do that.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you. Corrections. Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I could not let this opportunity pass without talking about my pet project, the revival of the young offender's wilderness camp at Mingotuq. The Minister may be tired of having me hound him about this matter, but I would like to explain to the committee that I am very pleased that this project has very strong support from elders in Iqaluit, from the Maliganik Tukisiiniakvik Society board, from Upassuraakut alcohol and drug project who would like the camp made available to young people with solvent, alcohol and drug abuse problems. I was very pleased the other day to receive a copy of a letter from the Arctic Bay alcohol and drug committee talking about the merits of re-opening the outpost camp out of Iqaluit. I do want to express my gratitude to the Minister for having taken the trouble to meet Inookie and Lucassie, the elders who will run this project and also for having sent some of his officials to Iqaluit earlier this year to meet with them and discuss a proposal that they have now submitted. I want to explain that I do understand that it may be difficult to identify funds in the times of fiscal restraint that we are operating under, and therefore, I have been encouraging the proponents to make their proposal as modest as possible, to have as much flexibility as they can about how they would run the program, including the possibility of offering the services of the camp on a per diem basis so that as money might become available, the camp could be called on in a fairly flexible manner. I do believe it will enhance the programs at the in-town institutions where young offenders are unable to get out on the land. I do know that Isumaqsunngittukkuvik young offenders closed custody facility has some ski-doos and has made some effort to get the young people out on the land. Unfortunately, they do not have the trained staff, nor do they have the necessary equipment and facilities to offer a very meaningful program. I am hopeful that the Mingotuq project will fill a need in cooperation with the institutional programs available in town and that money can be found to complement the existing in-town programs.

I would like to ask the Minister, I know he has only had a short time to review the proposal which was submitted, I believe within the past week, what can I tell my constituents about the possibility of getting some program going, revived, on the land for young offenders who are presently stuck in town in Iqaluit? These are young people from all over the Baffin region, not just Iqaluit. Can I give them some encouragement that where there is a will, there may be a way to squeeze out some funds so this program could be revived? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Minister.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, we should point out for the benefit of the other Members of the Legislature and the public that this particular proposal we are talking about is running in the neighbourhood of one quarter to one third of a million dollars. In spite of that, we are and have been actively working with the people behind this proposal to see what can be done to make some resources available in the event that we can work this proposal into the overall approach we are taking to making sure there are adequate facilities available for young offenders. At the present time, we are still discussing with the people who made the proposal. We have returned to them a request that they provide more detail and rework the proposal more so we can then be in a position, hopefully in the next couple of months, to give them a tentative commitment to start making some substantive commitments towards the proposals. We are working hard on it. The Member should be assured that we have not dismissed it, we have not stopped working on it. We are interested and there are some difficulties, but they are not insurmountable difficulties, at least at this time. However, it is still a substantive amount of money requested at this time.

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate that generally positive response from the Minister. I know that a full-blown operation for a year could amount to those sizeable sums. I would also like to note that in the response to the request of the Minister for more detail and more flexibility, the group has also made an offer to provide a much more modest service beginning this fall based on a per diem rate following the commitment of the government to certain basic start-up costs which would amount to about $60,000. It certainly need not cost as much in the first year as looking after six young offenders full-time for a full year. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister, just so we can put this request in context, would it be fair to say that the budget for the institution in town, which I understand has some 21 full-time staff and also additional part-time staff of another six or so, which I understand looks after six to eight young offenders on average, would be in the vicinity of $2 million per year? Is that figure within the range of the actual costs if you include the maintenance costs? Thank you.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, the courts provide sentencing that sometimes calls for specifically secure facilities, and bush camps are not anywhere near that definition. By law, we are compelled to continue providing secure custody facilities. The work we are now doing is not to be abandoned in order to support the development of community proposals to provide open custody facilities. The facility runs about $2 million per year and we are not in any position to start robbing

these facilities and downgrading the services we provide in them to try out community-based pilot projects in the areas which the Member is discussing and supporting at this time. We are, in any case, very interested in supporting the development of community-based proposals which would look at proposing programs and facilities particularly for young offenders. I do not think it is necessary at this time to suggest that we should write the facilities and give it all to community proposals. I think with the type of reviews and work we are doing to support community-based facilities, that we hopefully will be in a position to do that without having to downgrade or start taking resources away from the existing programs.

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am certainly in agreement with the Minister that this should not be a question of competing with the institutions. I am hopeful that the outpost camp program can be incorporated into the program of the institution and can be used to enrich the program of the institution. I have to say that these young folk come mostly from families who have either lived on the land or are living in rather humble circumstances. I sometimes think we are not helping them to adjust to normal life when we look after them so well in the institutional setting.

I know I had quiche there one day when I went for lunch. It was excellent quiche. There was a full-time cook available at the institution who presented phenomenal meals including lettuce, tomatoes, salads, et cetera. However, these young people have to eventually re-adjust to life in the real world. They need to learn how to hunt for themselves, they need to learn to make bannock and to eat country food. I think there is a balance to be struck. I am hoping that if we can incorporate an outpost camp component to the institution, then perhaps some of the resources can be re-allocated to the outpost camp without eroding the institutional program, in fact, with the net effective of enriching the institutional program.

Mr. Chairman, I certainly do not want to monopolize the discussion this afternoon. I am satisfied that the Minister and his staff are looking at this program seriously. I understand the constraints they are operating under. I would like to mentioned that Judge Brown of the territorial court has reviewed the proposal and has indicated her support for the concept. We have one judge who will be sentencing young offenders from the region, and who feels it would be an additional resource and a useful additional sentencing option for her in certain circumstances.

I would like to thank the Minister for his commitment to work through on this. I would like to indicate once again it is a priority for my constituents and for myself. I will look forward to some progress in the coming year. Hopefully we can get something up and running once again some time this fall. Qujannamiik.

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Corrections, total O and M, $19.727 million. Mr. Koe.

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Fred Koe Inuvik

Thank you. I have a couple of comments. I made a statement supporting the initiatives of the community corrections and community justice committee work, some of which are happening in my region. I wanted to hear from the Minister with regard to what he feels are some of the other initiatives and what is going to happen with the initiatives they are planning if the federal government is considering cuts in the aboriginal justice programs. Have you received any notice of cuts to that program? If so, what strategies are you going to use to continue the initiatives?

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, I was confused by the Member asking me what I feel. I know there is a proposal by the Gwich'in tribal council, submitted to the federal government, to conduct work in this area of corrections in taking some regional and community responsibility for incarceration or taking care of their own offenders. The proposal is still with the federal government. As a territorial government, we expect to be a partner and cost-share in the arrangement with the expectations that the federal government will be the principle contributor. The federal government has been cutback in their budget. There is no indication projects such as this are going to suffer as a result. We will continue working on the issue.

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Koe.

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Fred Koe Inuvik

What initiatives is your department taking to help facilitate the development of some of these types of programs in the various regions?

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, in the last few years there have been trips made by Ministers and MLAs to places such as the Navajo reservation in the United States to personally check out the justice system which has been developed there. At the present time, we are checking out possibilities, if there is sufficient interest, for Members to go and see for themselves how one aboriginal first nation of the United States has taken over the administration of justice, or at least has moved into it in a substantive way. We are working on this at the moment. Most people who have gone to visit have benefited from the trip and the experience. We are at the point where it is no longer something which we are talking about. It is happening. Justices of the peace have support systems extended to them so that they can take on increasing responsibility. There are workshops and training provided to them so that they can get increasingly involved in heavier work loads and heavier responsibilities in the area of sentencing. Communities who demonstrate some interest by individuals, groups or leaders to get involved in sentencing of young offenders and even adult offenders are increasingly encouraged by the different agencies, the courts, the judges often do that now, the RCMP, the federal prosecutors and ourselves in the Department of Justice. We are supporting regional conferences and workshops where people get together to share their ideas and their views on the various developments in the justice system. For instance, in Inuvik, sometime in March, there will be a conference -- I am not sure if there are specific dates set yet -- but hopefully, the session will not prohibit all of us from attending this conference, which I think will be very important. I think it will draw together interested individuals and groups from the Beaufort, Delta and Sahtu communities to share and exchange ideas and experiences and to have information and suggestions

presented to them over the course of two or three days so that this work can continue. Those are the types of things which are happening right now and are being encouraged by the department.

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Koe.

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Fred Koe Inuvik

Thank you and thanks to the Minister for that response. Previously, one of the Members made reference to Tabled Document 19-12(3), the 1992 master plan for corrections. I find the document very interesting, but I just wanted to get an idea from the Minister as to why types of -- I know in his statement they are doing an analysis of it and you are planning something for next October, but are you getting any feedback or any information from communities or people in this strategy?

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The indication we are receiving, although it is not specific to the master plan, is in nearly all the communities and regions that discussions are taking place about justice, corrections and courts. There is very strong support for development of community-based institutions and community-based programming. In relation to the master plan, I think what we will find, at least everything we have heard to date points to the fact that we will continue to provide support to the institutions that exist, but we will also complement that with the way we are reviewing the operations of corrections right now to see what resources we could throw to communities to help them develop proposals and then for us to find sufficient resources to fund proposals which would provide community-based institutions. For instance, land-based programming and community-based open facilities for young offenders and even adult offenders. As it suggests in the master plan, there has to be some coordination between the communities and the large facilities that we presently have. For instance, with adult offenders we do not have any resources allocated for half-way houses, for adults who are sentenced to correctional centres for a long period of time. We have no programs or facilities in place that would help them make the transition to go back and live in the communities. We do not have adequate resources or facilities developed for communities to take on the responsibility for young offenders, aside from just sending them out to a bush camp with a trapper here and there. We have no programs, no structured and well-resourced approach that we have developed yet with communities for that. That is where the work is going to be in the next year or so, trying to make those available because the communities are asking and because increasingly we are convinced that by working with communities and by us supporting it, the idea of having large centres continuing to operate institutions can be complementary with small community-based, land-based institutions and programs.

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Koe.

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Fred Koe Inuvik

There has been some discussion with the federal penitentiary system about repatriating inmates who are sentenced to federal institutions. I know we host some of these people in the north, but the majority of them go to federal penitentiaries across Canada. Where are we, in terms of negotiating an agreement, holding these types of inmates?

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, we met with the Solicitor General in January in Ottawa and we agreed that we should look jointly at the idea of bringing northern inmates serving time in southern penitentiaries and other southern institutions with a view to seeing if it is of benefit to both the federal and territorial governments to look at providing new facilities in the Northwest Territories for the majority of those inmates. There was an agreement. The Minister agreed that was a good suggestion to make and he has directed his officials to prepare themselves to start discussions on this. There is no commitment, but he thought it was a good idea and there would be instructions for his staff to investigate the idea. The first meeting we are having between our staff is in Edmonton this month.

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Corrections. Mr. Koe.

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Fred Koe Inuvik

Thank you. I just wanted an update. I think an ideal location for a federal penitentiary would be in the Delta area. Mahsi.

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Corrections. Total O and M, $19.727 million. Member for Thebacha.

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Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On the corrections page in the second paragraph, it indicates that the institutional mandate is to administer the disposition of the courts in accordance with statutory requirements by providing for the safe custody and detention of adult and young offenders sentenced to a period of incarceration or those remanded into custody. Mr. Chairman, I would like to know how the Minister justifies the tabled document, which I tabled today in the House regarding the sexual assault of inmates in the Hay River youth centre, when his mandate is to provide safe custody of these young offenders who are sentenced? How are the supervisory roles taking place? Are they adequate or inadequate that sexual assaults of young offenders is happening in our facilities? Thank you.

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, the incident that the Member is referring to, happens not only here in the Northwest Territories, but in other places in the country. The facilities house offenders, people who commit offences of different natures. We cannot realistically believe that they would not be inclined, some time during their incarceration, to consider committing further crimes. This particular incident does not discourage me from stating what I feel is the mandate of corrections. This is what our intention is. This is what we think our job is and when incidents such as this arise, of course we are concerned and we check it out. We have had a thorough review and investigation into this particular incident. Some measures to try to minimize the recurrence of such an incident is being looked at. The fact is that we cannot watch each individual inmate 24 hours per day. We do not have the ability to do this. We simply cannot do it. There are going to be cases where offences are committed within the facilities. It is our job to do what it is that we feel our mandates are.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Member for Thebacha.

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Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, it concerns me when the Minister has this type of attitude, "We are looking after inmates and well, sometimes these things happen." I know those things happen. This is why I am asking the Minister about what he is trying to do to prevent these types of things from happening and to ensure the public that the custody provided for young offenders is going to be safe, to prevent them from being sexually assaulted in one of those facilities. What type of supervision is taking place in these facilities where these things can happen? Is there an investigation or review being done in this particular incident? I suspect there should be one. What type of measures is this department taking to avoid these things from recurring? I do not think the Minister would want a young offender facility where all of a sudden he is going to find young girls possibly pregnant who were supposed to be put into those facilities for safe custody, to protect the public and to also protect the individual. If you take the attitude that these things happen, they can happen. Could the Minister advise us as to what type of preventative measures are taken by the department to avoid them from happening? It would be appreciated, thank you.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, there is nothing wrong with my attitude. I do not encourage this. We have had an investigation into this particular situation and the offender was charged, as I understand it. The RCMP did a complete investigation. They found no evidence of any negligence or wrong-doing on the part of the staff. We have cameras, we have locked doors, and we have a staff who try to supervise the inmates. However, aside from locking them up individually in little cubby holes and having 24 hour one on one guards, we will never be able to have a complete fool proof system to prevent inmates from inflicting abuse or offences on one another. I am not going to mislead the Member or Members of the Legislature in saying that this is a possibility. These incidents are taken very seriously and we work very hard to try to make improvements. At a certain point, I think we have to admit there are limitations on our capabilities.

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Corrections, total O and M, $19.727 million. Member for Thebacha.

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Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Can the Minister indicate to me any type of preventative measures which are taking place in order to avoid this type of incident from recurring? Thank you.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, as I have said there was an investigation. There has been a review by corrections to see what can be done to improve the security and measures we can take to make sure that inmates, and particularly young offenders, are protected and monitored. While I am not too interested in disclosing what they are right now because they are part of security arrangements being made, I would be willing to share those with the Member in a private meeting.

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Member for Thebacha.

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Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, I would appreciate it because I am concerned. We have a young offenders facility and an open custody type facility in our community. I am somewhat concerned that there appears to be a lack of supervision in these facilities, and sometimes the facilities which were initially built were not structured for a young offenders facility. The structure of the building makes it difficult for ongoing supervision. However, it concerns me when incidents such as this happens in young offender facilities or group homes. I certainly would appreciate finding out what type of measures we have taken to prevent this from recurring.

Mr. Chairman, I have one more request of the Minister. Can we possibly get a list of the type of programs which are delivered to all of the correctional centres? With respect to comments made by my colleague from Iqaluit, with regard to the young offenders open custody land programs, Mr. Chairman, I agree with the concept, however, I believe that if the Minister is going to look at this type of land program for young offenders that a program such as this has to be looked at and considered equally across the territories, and not just in one particular region.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

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Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

I believe that we should consider looking in future budgets to try to aim for more money or, perhaps, take it from adult corrections to be able to develop these type of programs for young offenders. Those are my comments, Mr. Chairman, thank you.

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Corrections, total O and M, $19.727 million. Mr. Arvaluk.

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James Arvaluk Aivilik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a quick question. What is the status of the Coral Harbour justice program which was jointly planned by the hamlet and your department?

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

We have a tentative agreement on that and once the RCMP have finalized their detailed planning for the pilot project it will proceed, I think by the fall.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Corrections. Total O and M, $19,727 million. Agreed?

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Page 06-16, details of grants and contributions. Grants $46,000. Agreed?

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Contributions. Member for Thebacha.

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Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Can we have a breakdown for the committee in respect to the $40,000 which is given for aboriginal court challenges, to what groups. Thank you.

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Mr. Minister.

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Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Total grants, $46,000. Agreed?

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Contribution, $2.057 million. Member for Thebacha.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Can we be advised as to why the Dene Cultural Institute is not getting their $50,000 in regard to the traditional law research program? That program, I take it, has been concluded?

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. The hour is 6:00 pm. I will rise and report progress. I would like to thank the witnesses.

Bill 17: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 749

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Item 19, report of committee of the whole. Mr. Chairman.

Item 19: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 19: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Page 749

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Mr. Speaker, you committee has been considering Bill 17 and would like to report progress. Mr. Speaker, I move that the report of the committee of the whole be concurred with. Thank you.

Item 19: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 19: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Page 749

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Seconder to the motion, Mr. Arvaluk. The motion is in order. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Item 20, third reading of bills. Mr. Clerk, item 20, orders of the day.

Item 20: Orders Of The Day
Item 20: Orders Of The Day

Page 749

Clerk Of The House Mr. David Hamilton

Mr. Speaker, there will be a meeting of the full caucus at 6:00 pm, this evening, followed by a meeting of the Ordinary Members' Caucus, and at 9:00 am, tomorrow morning also of the Ordinary Members' Caucus. Orders of the day for Friday, March 5, 1993.

1. Prayer

2. Ministers' Statements

3. Members' Statements

4. Returns to Oral Questions

5. Oral Questions

6. Written Questions

7. Returns to Written Questions

8. Replies to Opening Address

9. Petitions

10. Reports of Standing and Special Committees

11. Reports of Committees on the Review of Bills

12. Tabling of Documents

13. Notices of Motion

14. Notices of Motions for First Reading of Bills

15. Motions

16. First Reading of Bills

17. Second Reading of Bills

- Bill 8, Payroll Tax Act

- Bill 18, An Act to Amend the Public Printing Act

- Bill 19, An Act to Amend the Student Financial Assistance Act

- Bill 20, Loan Authorization Act, 1993-94

18. Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

- Tabled Document 2-12(3), The Justice House - Report of the Special Advisor on Gender Equality

- Tabled Document 3-12(3), Report of the Commission for Constitutional Development

- Tabled Document 49-12(3), Long-Term Staff Housing Strategy

- Bill 5, An Act to Amend the Social Assistance Act

- Bill 12, An Act to Amend the Mental Health - Bill 17, Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94

- Minister's Statement 34-12(3), Long-Term Staff Housing Strategy

- Committee Report 10-12(3), Report on Tabled Document 21-12(3): Payroll Tax Act

- Committee Report 11-12(3), Report on the Review of the 1993-94 Main Estimates

- Appearance by Members of Commission for Constitutional Development

19. Report of Committee of the Whole

20. Third Reading of Bills

21. Orders of the Day

Item 20: Orders Of The Day
Item 20: Orders Of The Day

Page 749

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Clerk. This House stands adjourned until 10:00 am, Friday, March 5, 1993.

---ADJOURNMENT