Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The fire protection in the NWT document includes the studies that were carried out. I understand the Member's concern because not having proper equipment or alarm systems in place could mean, possibly, not being able to address the urgency of the matter, if there should be a fire in the community.

Thank you. General comments. The honourable Member for Kitikmeot, Mr. Ng.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There may be a priority in some of my communities, but I think it is also a territorial issue. I don't think the communities in my constituency are the only ones in this type of situation. That is why I asked the Minister to clarify how extensive this evaluation of fire alerting systems was, in trying to identify what is out there now and whether those systems are adequate. That is what I would like to clarify here, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ng. Madam Minister.

Mr. Chairman, I will let Mr. Christensen respond to Mr. Ng's question.

Mr. Christensen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The report that has been prepared assesses fire alarm systems and makes some recommendations about fire alarm systems, but in terms of alerting the fire brigade of the fire and the location of the fire, getting the message out through phone systems, pagers and dispatch arrangements, it doesn't focus so much on the mechanism of getting the fire called in from individuals.

It acknowledges that the primary systems that are in use right now are the pull-box and phone-in system. But, it offers no new ways to improve the call ins for fires.

Thank you. Mr. Ng.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess that confirms what I thought. I would like to suggest to the department that it may not be an expensive process and I think they have to take another look at this. There are problems out there in the initial fire call and alerting of the fire department. The pager systems may be adequate to getting Members to respond to the fire, but they may want to consider putting in some designated phone lines that access the 24-hour monitoring system that alerts firefighters in communities, similar to pull-boxes. With the technology we have for telephone services these days, it might not be that expensive to set up that type of system. Thank you.

Thank you. Madam Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will let Mr. Christensen respond to that.

Thank you. Mr. Christensen.

Mr. Chairman, the department can certainly review the concern raised by the Member and see what additional improvements can be made in this area. We could review our communities to see what the distribution of phones are within a community for calling purposes, to see if improvements can be made in that area.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have some general comments for Department of Municipal and Community Affairs. They have to do with the reorganization that is currently going on in the department.

As Members of the House are aware, the Standing Committee on Finance said in our Investing in our Future report that the committee was unaware of the need for such dramatic changes and the need was not documented and presented to the Legislative Assembly for consideration and discussion. We were wondering why these changes were felt to be necessary and why they were made in such a hurry, apparently without benefit of a well-thought-out plan. Therefore, we made a recommendation that this department come to the Standing Committee on Finance with a report by December 23, 1994.

We say this because this department has been viewed by Members on this side of the House as providing a good service to the people in the communities, especially to municipal governments. There was a good working relationship there. With the sudden change, it caught a lot of people by surprise and there are a lot of concerns expressed by Members on this side of the House and people in the communities that I represent about the changes that have taken place at the headquarters level, with the way headquarters is working now and with the people there who are being moved around. It is causing some concern to myself and the people I represent.

I just wanted to let the department know that the briefing that we received on October 25th addressed many questions but, unfortunately, it was not presented in the House to the public. The reorganization is going on and what is done is done, but personally, I just wanted to make sure that it is done for a good purpose and, in the final analysis, this department will continue to provide good services to the communities, and that it will be more effective and efficient.

Like I have always said in the House, it is this government's responsibility to provide programs and services to people in the communities and we should try to find the best way, the most efficient and effective economic way to do that. If the purpose of the reorganization is to do that, then it is a good way to look at it.

My first, immediate impression of the reorganization was that I wasn't aware of it, we hadn't asked for it, yet it was happening. I expressed annoyance at that because of the suddenness. We all want to know that what is happening in the department is good for the people in the communities. But, there are going to be some concerns with the people at the headquarters level who are going to be moved around. I understand that there are some divisions that have been amalgamated or done away with and changed, the people within the headquarters level have been moved around, and some of their positions are going to be obsolete, and people in these positions have to compete with people for other positions within the department. That causes some concerns for the people in those positions; I'm aware of that.

I wanted to know, is there a change in the philosophy of this department? Is that one of the reasons for the reorganization? I'm wondering, the way the department used to run was with a fiscal which helped the communities out in their accounting and in the way they do business. Is there a shift away from that to help the communities develop into stronger communities? Is there more emphasis on community development? I'm wondering about that.

I say this because I go back to the history of this government and the way local government was developed in the north, everybody is aware of that history. Myself, my background as a Dene, a former chief, I worked at the community level for many years. Among the Dene, we've had our own traditional way of governing ourselves for many, many years. This whole territorial government system was imposed on people who were already living up here many years ago. The way aboriginal people were governing themselves, I don't think was incorporated into the way local government was developed. It was a foreign system that was imposed, and I think for many years the Dene, on the western side, didn't accept this government for that reason, because it was an imposed system without our involvement and without our inclusion in the way local government should be functioning.

I think that happened on the Inuit side as well. I've been doing a little bit of research on the thing called the Baker Lake incident, where about 20 years ago, the Commissioner of the day cancelled community development workshops that were trying to develop local government using the knowledge of the local people. Instead, they developed this guided democracy principle. That's the way this department was functioning. There was a model of the guided democracy. It was not really utilizing the traditional way of developing local government, and we felt it in the west.

But, in more recent years, some of the communities have developed into hamlet councils for funding purposes. Mainly just to get more funding from the government, some of the communities have developed into hamlet councils, although there still remain the chief and band councils in these communities.

As a result of that, in my constituency we have four communities that are still under a chief and band council. That's the community government. These are the communities that I've been talking about with regard to your department developing a program to help them get assistance to run their communities. At the present time, some of these smaller communities are using band core funding that bands receive from the federal government to run their organization. They've been using some of their band core funding to run their municipalities because they don't have enough funding to fund the municipality.

Because these communities are still run by a chief and band council, this department and this government is not helping them because they are not a public government. So they've been left aside and ignored, and they've had to make do with whatever little money they had to run their communities.

What I'm getting at is that the philosophy of the department was based on introducing and implementing a different type of local government than what was already there. Because the government system that is traditional there did not fit into the guidelines or the principles of the department, they did not get funding. It was a fundamental, basic principle there.

So if the reorganization of this department is going on, I'm wondering whether that philosophy is also going to be changed to allow for communities such as the four in my area that are presently under a chief and band council community government, whether they're going to be looked upon by this department now as being the community government. Or, do they all have to get underneath the department through the hamlet council system or with the charter community system before they get adequate funding? This is my concern with this department. Perhaps the Minister and her staff could tell me about the structural changes and, if there are any, also basic philosophical changes that are also going on, and how

the department is approaching community governments. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Before I recognize Madam Minister, Mr. Gargan, welcome home. Madam Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There was a committee motion passed on October 19th to report to committee of the whole on the reorganization of the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs. I felt that maybe we would be dealing with the report before or after. I'm going to need your guidance on this one, after we deal with our budget or before the budget, because this is something new to me that as the Minister responsible, being requested to make a report to committee of the whole.

I do have the report at hand that was requested on October 19th by Motion 23-12(6).

Thank you. Madam Minister.

Mr. Chairman, the mandate of MACA, it's quite clear in a little booklet that was provided some time ago now, called Strengthening our Partnership. The mission statement is in it as well, that our department is responsible for supporting democratic community governments under the acts and policies administered by the Minister. The department provides this support through funding, advice and training to the community councils and their administrations.

The department also provides programs and services to other organizations and individuals that support community government. The mission is, Municipal and Community Affairs is the Northwest Territories' department that helps community residents organize and manage community governments to pursue their aspirations in a democratic and accountable manner. We do this with a team of professional staff committed to results and dedicated to achieving quality of life for local residents.

We have an open and honest partnership with community governments, built on mutual trust and the desire to make a difference through teamwork and innovation. To add to that, during question period I assured the Member for Nahendeh that we would be looking into assisting communities that don't have incorporated status. In fact, I think our department has already assisted in terms of training that has been requested from his riding. I think that is a positive sign of this department being willing to work with people who request assistance from us.

Thank you, Madam Minister. I believe there was a motion on the floor to get some information from the Minister on the reorganization on the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs. Subsequent to the motion, we have had information circulated from the office of the Minister of MACA. If the committee wishes to deal with this after general comments, we can deal with it. It is up to you. Mr. Antoine, do you have any comments about the information? Mr. Antoine.

Mr. Chairman, the motion you are referring to has to do with this department. We could deal with the information after we finish general comments; I have no problem with that. I just wanted to get back to the question I asked earlier. I would like to thank the Minister for her reply, however, it wasn't quite what I was looking for.

There are structural changes going on in the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs at the present time and it is just the beginning of changes in the department. I'm pretty sure the changes, once done at the headquarters level, will lead to changes in the regions and the communities. I just want to know, are the changes only structural or are basic philosophical changes going on with the department.

I know the department heads all have different ways of doing things and with the new deputy minister in place, who is making these changes, I would like to know whether these changes are only structural. Are we changing organization within headquarters, and moving some people around? Those are structural changes. I would also like to know if there are philosophical changes, meaning are there changes in the way people in headquarters are looking at dealing with the communities now. If there are changes in the way you are going to work with the communities, I would like to know what kind of changes they are. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Madam Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will let my deputy minister respond to the structural change. On the other part Mr. Antoine referred to, I would like to think there is a renewed will within the department. There is nothing more I would like to see in the communities than their taking on more responsibilities, when they feel they are ready. Empowerment of the community is maybe a better word. I will let Mr. Ramsden respond to the reorganization aspect of it.

Thank you. Mr. Ramsden.