Thank you, Mr. Pollard. Mr. Koe.

I know for this municipality... I don't know for Iqaluit specifically but municipalities, in general, have been borrowing money from this government to develop lands. I know of other municipalities where we've had write-offs, Inuvik, for example, for developing lands. What kind of review is being done to look at how we finance development of lands in municipalities where there's not a booming market? We've had problems, Inuvik, Ptarmigan Hill, Iqaluit, wherever this one is, and I'm sure there's other municipalities where we've had to write off some debentures. What work is being done to assist municipalities in developing lands without getting them into huge debt and huge financing costs?

Thank you, Mr. Koe. Mr. Pollard.

Mr. Chairman, from memory, I think there's in excess of $40 million in debentures out to tax-based municipalities in the Northwest Territories. Each time there's a debenture applied for, we do look at it through the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs. I should say that Hay River had a problem some 15 years ago, Mr. Chairman, so it's not as if it's something that's just starting to occur right now. The latest one though, Finance and MACA have been looking at this thing and looking at what happens, how does it occur, what are the remedies, et cetera. I must say that the Department of Finance is paying much more attention to this issue now. There is a measure of whether or not the municipality can repay and can handle the development. I think we're being more vigilant right now and communicating a lot more with tax-based municipalities, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Pollard. Mr. Koe.

I'll accept this if the SCOF members all accept it.

Thank you, Mr. Koe. Mr. Patterson.

Mr. Chairman, of course, as MLA for Iqaluit, I'm very grateful for this item having been approved. I would just like to echo Mr. Koe's comments that basically what we should have learned now from Iqaluit, Inuvik, and even casting my mind back to Hay River land developments is that in a fledgling private real estate market in a developing economy, the traditional methods of financing land development in municipalities doesn't seem to be working. I guess I'd like to ask the Minister if something has been learned from all this?

For example, the advisory committee of the town of Iqaluit decided this summer that the only way they were going to get further land developed was for cheap. With the help of Municipal and Community Affairs, they developed lots in a much more modest way. There's no underground pipe, all they give people is a basic driveway, no pad is built. Therefore, the developer is required to contribute some of the basic costs. The individual resident, the home owner, is going to have to provide some of the costs. Especially when you bury pipes in the north, you're aggravating the costs enormously.

I would like to ask Mr. Pollard, will the government profit from this experience and look at other ways of developing land where you have these risks of loss if the lots don't sell all at once, if they don't sell as fast, or if they don't sell at all? Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, I think that Mr. Patterson was correct when he said that in some of these communities where there's an evolving housing market or land market, you're going to get some teething problems. I think in Hay River now the situation has resolved itself and people are buying houses and they're buying lots. They're not getting stuck with all those lots and no way to service the debt. As their land development fund grows, they are able to make those payments. The other thing that I've noticed in Hay River particularly, is that they used to buy a lot and then a couple of years later they'd ask do you want a sidewalk and then there was an additional tax and so on and so forth. I notice that there's more development of a lot and as Mr. Patterson says, there's not only a driveway in these lots, but there's underground electricity, the lights are in, and the sidewalks are up and so on and so forth. You're buying something that is complete.

In Yellowknife, I know that here -- I saw your eyes light up, Mr. Chairman as I mentioned your home town -- developers take a chunk of property and develop the whole lot themselves and they carry the risk. I think that from the experiences that we've learned, once Finance and MACA have had a look at this situation, we will be perhaps making some recommendations to Cabinet as a whole on ways that these things can be handled in future years. I think we have to respect the fact though that, in Inuvik, in particular, with Ptarmigan Hills, the council of the day made a decision that they thought was correct. They felt that they could sell those lots. They were impacted by things that were beyond their control: the armed forces had left, oil and gas activity had been shutting down. They were left with some inventory on their hands that they really truly thought they would be able to sell if economic activity had continued. I think there are times when communities do get caught in the crunch, whereas if they had not made the decision to put some more lots on the market and there had been a boom, then they would have been up against the wall without enough space to put people. These things happen, we'll learn from the mistakes, and certainly when MACA and finance get done, we'll make some recommendations, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Agreed.

---Agreed

I thought SCOF members would raise their hands. Can the Minister advise this House as to what the total estimated outstanding bill is for the Department of Health?

As of midnight, March 31, 1994, Mr. Chairman, we calculated it to be $121.184 million. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

That was $121 million, Mr. Chairman?

Yes, $121.184 million, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Some of this is still in litigation, I presume. I presume there's still a court case, I haven't heard too much. What's the status of that issue?