This is page numbers 825 - 862 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 6th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was chairman.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Dent. I have found that Members have a lot of energy after they've had a 15 minute break and we make better progress, so I would like to call a 15 minute recess.

---SHORT RECESS

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Dent, you gave us a list before the break beginning with Tabled Document 23-12(6). I presume that is the one you want to deal with first and that we follow the order you have given us?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Agreed.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you. Does everybody else agree?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Tabled Document 23-12(6): Report Of The 1993-94 Electoral District Boundaries Commission Northwest Territories
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Okay, we're on Tabled Document 23-12(6), Report of the 1993-94 Electoral District Boundaries Commission. When we were last dealing with this item, there was an amendment on the floor. The problem I have is if you are going to vote on it, we need more Members. Please ring the bells.

Okay, we have a quorum. Mr. Antoine's amendment to the main motion was ruled in order. To the amendment.

Tabled Document 23-12(6): Report Of The 1993-94 Electoral District Boundaries Commission Northwest Territories
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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An Hon. Member

Question.

Tabled Document 23-12(6): Report Of The 1993-94 Electoral District Boundaries Commission Northwest Territories
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The amendment is defeated.

---Defeated

To the main motion, Mr. Pollard's main motion.

Tabled Document 23-12(6): Report Of The 1993-94 Electoral District Boundaries Commission Northwest Territories
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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An Hon. Member

Question.

Tabled Document 23-12(6): Report Of The 1993-94 Electoral District Boundaries Commission Northwest Territories
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is defeated.

---Defeated

What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Pollard.

Committee Motion 75-12(6): To Adopt The Electoral District Boundaries Of High Arctic, Nunakput, Sahtu, Tu Nedhe, North Slave And Kitikmeot, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

November 7th, 1994

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John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, I move that the electoral district of High Arctic be redescribed by moving the west boundary at 141'00'W longitude to coincide with the boundary line to divide the territories (Inuvialuit settlement region and Nunavut land claims boundary.)

And further, Mr. Chairman, that the electoral district of Nunakput be redescribed by removing the north boundary at 74'00'N latitude, to extend the district of the north pole. Move the east boundaries of 115'00'W and 120'00'W to coincide with the boundary line to divide the territories (Inuvialuit settlement region and Nunavut land claim boundary), 110'00'W and 120'40'51"W respectively.

And furthermore that the electoral district of Sahtu be redescribed by moving the portion of the northeastern corner to coincide with the boundary line to divide the Northwest Territories (Nunavut land claim boundary.)

And furthermore that the electoral boundary of Tu Nedhe be redescribed by moving the north boundary of 65'00'N, and extending the west boundary line of 112'30'W, to coincide with the boundary line to divide the territories (Nunavut land claim boundary).

And furthermore that the electoral district of North Slave be redescribed by moving the eastern portion of the north boundary at 65'00'N to coincide with the boundary line to divide the territories (Nunavut land claim boundary.)

And furthermore that the electoral district of Kitikmeot be redescribed by moving the west boundaries of 115'00'W, 70'00'W, 120'00'2, 67'45'N, 116'00'W, and south boundary of 65'00'N, to coincide with the boundary line to divide the territories (Inuvialuit settlement region and Nunavut land claim boundary.) Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you for your motion, Mr. Pollard. The motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Zoe.

Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Mr. Chairman, I don't have a particular problem with the motion being put forward by the Member for Hay River. I realize that the electoral boundary is just for the purpose of elections and in no way does it affect claimant groups boundaries, so I am quite satisfied with the proposed motion we have in front of us. Mahsi.

The Chair Brian Lewis

To the motion. Mr. Gargan.

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, I believe an issue arose out of Mr. Antoine's problem. Has that been addressed?

The Chair Samuel Gargan

Thank you, Mr. Gargan. Mr. Pollard, this is your motion.

John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, it has been addressed, perhaps not to the satisfaction of some Members of the House, but it has been addressed, yes.

The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Pollard. Are you satisfied, Mr. Gargan? Mr. Morin.

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I realize that this boundary is for electoral districts only and it is not for land claims use. As all Members know, Treaty 8, especially Lutsel K'e had an issue about the eastern boundary of Nunavut and the western Arctic. I would like to encourage, and always encourage, that that be dealt with strictly between the chiefs and leaders of the people, and that it not be dealt with in this House. That is something they have to deal with with the federal government and I would like to encourage the chief of Lutsel K'e as well as the leaders of Baker Lake to get together and have a meeting to discuss usage on each side of the boundary. There was talk about that type of meeting, and I would like to encourage them to meet so they can eventually sign a peace treaty between the Baker Lake and Lutsel K'e people. Thank you.

The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Morin. Mr. Kakfwi.

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Members would, I think, all agree that had the original debate been limited just to taking issue with the commission going beyond their explicit terms of reference, then this would have been a non-issue. I agree that the commission made recommendations beyond what this Legislature appeared to have given them, at least explicitly, and therefore, we can rationalize that we should only make those changes that we originally explicitly mandated them to do, which would not have been a reason to set up the commission in the first place. It would just have been a matter of passing a motion in this House. We didn't need a commission to do all that work in the first place.

But, what happened was the integrity of the Sahtu claim was brought into question. Whether or not people were on side of the Sahtu claim was dragged into the debate and I took strong objection to that. I want Members to know that I also recognize that when we have constituency boundaries drawn, they in no way have to conform, at this time, to the boundaries of the regional claims, as set out in the western territory by the Inuvialuit settlement boundary, by the Gwich'in settlement boundary and by the Sahtu settlement boundary.

But, it may be wise for us to keep in mind always that when we are talking about setting up a government in the western territory, if it is to be a single government for aboriginal and non-aboriginal people, and it is going to take form as an aboriginal public form of government, we may very well need, in the future, to show that the boundaries of the claimant groups will be reflected in the way we draw up constituencies. It may be a requirement by aboriginal groups that this is recognized in drawing up constituencies. That is the concern I have.

We cannot, for instance, argue that the north side line that divides east and west will be a claims boundary and then choose to disregard it as a potential benchmark for further development in the western part of the territory. I want Members to know that, although we appear to be suggesting that we will not make any more changes other than those that are minimally required to respect the boundary between the western territory and Nunavut, as far as I'm concerned, as a Member of this Legislature, I am prepared to respect the claims boundary of the Inuvialuit and the way it borders on the Sahtu. I am prepared to respect the boundary between the Sahtu and the Gwich'in regional claims. I am prepared to respect and recognize the boundary between the Dogrib people and the Sahtu, as they have negotiated it. The applies to the Deh Cho because, as I said, the boundaries of the Sahtu are set in legislation.

If Members choose not to do that, then I can respect that as well. I just want Members to know that it is not an issue with me at this time. If you want to stay with the minimal requirement for changing the constituencies, then that's fine. Thank you.

The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. To the motion. Mr. Nerysoo.

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to make sure there is no confusion about where this matter is of concern to those people I represent, and so people are clear that the Gwich'in leadership did in fact support the recommendations made in the electoral boundaries commission report, as had been proposed; mainly because it was the reflection of the agreement that had been reached between them and the federal government, and their agreement reached with the Sahtu. I think there was a respect for compromise and consideration for the use of land. But, even more than that, I think people should be aware that there is a jurisdictional issue related to those boundaries. In other words, there are a certain amount of law-making responsibilities there that would have made it much clearer in the eyes of the Gwich'in leadership and also in the case of the Sahtu, based on their land claims agreement; it would be very clear.

However, I don't want to create a situation where people feel compelled to argue about traditional lands. Mind you, as I said before, the debate about traditional lands is a debate between aboriginal people. It is not an issue that should be related to electoral boundaries because I think you must take into consideration factors other than simply voting. I listened to the debate that took place here the other day and, in my view, we were talking about matters that should be resolved between aboriginal peoples.

I'm of the same opinion, Mr. Chairman, that Mr. Kakfwi has stated. I am prepared to respect the agreements and boundaries that have been reached between the federal government and the Inuit. I'm prepared to respect the boundaries that outline the Inuvialuit settlement region, the Gwich'in and the Sahtu.

I think the irony of this particular debate is that we're debating something that is passed by this Legislature while we should also recognize that a higher law, in many respects, is the basis on which claims have been made; that is, the constitution of this country. If we're unable to recognize that, I think we're in deep trouble, not so much trouble between the aboriginal people and the federal government but trouble because we, as the second level of government, are not prepared to recognize constitutional agreements. We are recognizing it with the Inuit in establishing division between Nunavut and the west. It would have been the same if we had done it for the Gwich'in, the Inuvialuit and the Sahtu.

I just wanted to make those comments, Mr. Chairman.

The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you very much, Mr. Nerysoo. To the motion. Mr. Gargan.

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, I have just have one final comment before question is called. I support the electoral boundary, but when you have a situation where aboriginal organizations are negotiating with the federal government, third-party interests are not an issue. I think that is what happened in Jim Antoine's area. Even though he has been impacted by Sahtu claims, there is no avenue for him to express his concerns. The territorial government is aware of that, too.

I suppose it was Mr. Antoine who brought up the whole issue of the mandate of the Electoral District Boundaries Commission. They only had the mandate to change the boundaries based on the political line, and nothing else. But, I think Mr. Antoine also brought up an issue that would never have been addressed if he hadn't, and that is even though he is being impacted by the Sahtu claim -- and I'm sure it is the same way with all the other claims -- it is a boundaries issue. The Deh Cho region is caught between the Dogrib claim and the Sahtu claim. We are not saying we are going to be pursuing claims, but we are certainly impacted by them and this is the only arena, I believe, where we have the opportunity to bring up that point.

But, I support the motion because the lines mean the same, and they don't go into areas.