Thank you, Mr. Antoine. The motion is in order. To the motion.

Question.

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

That concludes the report of the Standing Committee on Finance and also the motions. We're on page 17-11, program summary, of the main estimates. General comments. Mr. Ningark.

General Comments

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we in the Natilikmiot region, consisting of Pelly Bay, Gjoa Haven and Taloyoak, have had problems trying to retain economic development officers. They have a habit of only staying a couple of years in Taloyoak. I'm not saying this is the fault of the previous Ministers or the present Minister. I don't know what the problem is. Maybe the job is not attractive enough, I don't know.

The Kitikmeot Inuit Association, together with CEDOs has a plan to administer and manage the economic development officer position and the PY in Taloyoak. A formal request was made to the honourable Minister of Economic Development. I was very privileged to be at that meeting. The Minister has indicated to me that, if this is the wish of the members of that community, that he would comply. I know the KIA and CEDOs have worked very, very hard. They have put a tremendous amount of time and effort into this plan. I know it will work because this is coming from the community and the hamlet council of that community has also given their support to the initiative. The incentive is coming from the community and I know the Minister is in support of this initiative.

Mr. Chairman, I hope, at some time in the future, once we deal with the matter in Taloyoak, that we will finally be able to get an economic development officer for my community of Pelly Bay. There was request made about a year ago. I think there was a misunderstanding. People thought I was not supporting the community of Pelly Bay to get an economic development officer PY in that community.

Mr. Chairman, I know the regional superintendent, Mr. John McGrath, has worked very hard for that region, but he does not have all the resources and means to do the things he wanted to do and what the people want. But, hopefully, with this new initiative in Taloyoak, we will be able to help the community and the individual who lives in that area to develop some ways and means to get economic activity finally going in that side of the Kitikmeot region.

I know Mr. Kelvin Ng, my colleague, is in support of whatever economic development we can initiate in that region. I'm very thankful for that, he is a Member I can work with. It is very comfortable to work with Mr. Kelvin Ng. The only difference we have is that there are too many government departments and programs in his area. I hope some of those will be transferring to part of my area. I know he and I can work over that some day soon.

Mr. Chairman, Gjoa Haven is in the process of starting a community development corporation. We all know that the community development corporation's priority is to hire and train local people. We know that the money stays in the community whenever there is a community economic development corporation initiated by the community.

I also have one in Taloyoak who want to start up their own community development by renting office space and some accommodation to the government staff. In most small communities, the only means of income coming to the community is usually the staff of this jurisdiction. I hope that the Minister will be sensitive to the people who want to start a community development corporation in any given area, especially when the community has a proposal to provide office space to government staff within the community. I know the system. The government is in the process of getting rid of all the government staff houses, and I hope, given that, they will also want to rent office space from the community development corporation.

In conclusion, I know that the Minister has lived in the eastern Arctic for many years and he has been a proponent of community development corporations, community hire and government buying from the community. I know he has worked very hard since taking over the portfolio as the Economic Development and Tourism Minister, and I know he will continue to do that. I have every confidence in the Minister. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you very much, Mr. Ningark. We are on page 17-11. It is your call if you want to have any witnesses to help you, Mr. Todd, but we are on general comments. Would you like to?

It may be appropriate, if it is okay with the ordinary Members, that I ask Mr. Bailey to come forward.

Mr. Todd would like to have Mr. Bailey as staff at the witness table. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Sergeant-at-Arms, would you help the witness to the table, please? Thank you. For the record, then, identify the gentleman to your right, please, for us.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On my immediate right is Mr. Roland Bailey who is the deputy minister of Economic Development and Tourism. Thank you.

Mr. Ningark made some general comments. Would you like to respond to his comments?

No, not at this time.

General comments. Mr. Patterson.

Mr. Chairman, I will start off with the good things, as I usually do. I just want to reiterate, because I have close dealings with the superintendent and some staff members of the department in Baffin, which is headquartered in my riding, that the significant breakthrough made by Mr. Todd, with the full support of his deputy, I know, in devolving authority to the regions has made an enormous impact, I believe, on the morale of regional staff. I have said before in this House that it seemed like they had to get permission from Yellowknife to go to the bathroom in Baffin in the past, and now it is completely different.

I know a bit about the dynamics of government organizations. I suspect there was a touch of reluctance on the part of some of the able bureaucrats in headquarters in the department about this change, and they will be closely monitoring the situation.

But I want to say that it has given a new lease on life, in my view, to the staff in my region, and it has given my constituents and others in the Baffin region a real ability to get things done with less delay. So I want to commend the department again for this change. I think it's working well, and I sense some new energy and enthusiasm in the department that is very positive.

Sure, there are some down sides and some areas that have to be watched, with this change. I endorse the standing committee's observation that adequate support needs to be provided to the regional staff so the superintendents and others can undertake these new responsibilities. The Minister may have a comment on that. I know this is a new change and there may be some realignments still required to provide that support.

I have also noted the concern that, in some regions, staff may be marching to a little different drum than the constituents and the MLAs. I think that is a problem that is easily dealt with. In my opinion and my experience, the quickest way to deal with a problem of that kind is to approach Mr. Todd or Mr. Bailey or the particular staff member in question. I have found they have been responsive to MLAs' concerns, and I don't think that's a situation that Mr. Todd would knowingly neglect if an official was not responding appropriately to the political winds blowing in a constituency. So I think that is undoubtedly a danger, or I think it is a problem that can be addressed.

I want to say, without being too lavish in my praise, that, in my view, the superintendent and staff in the Baffin region have the confidence of myself and, by and large, of the people who have to deal with them. It is sometimes a tough job because there are limits on dollars and programs, but I think they have good credibility and good relations with the department in the region.

I am pleased that Qikiqtaaluk Corporation and Kakivak Association have now got a very much improved and close working relationship with the department in the region. I think this is critical as we plan the implementation of Nunavut and the development initiatives that will flow from the land claims.

I also want to commend the department for having made it possible for the establishment of a regional economic planning position in the Baffin. I think that, with the Baffin MLAs and mayors, we are now working actively with the Baffin Region Inuit Association and Qikiqtaaluk Corporation and other concerned agencies to develop a Baffin economic strategy. It will be made in Baffin, it will be appropriate to the region, it's off and running and will lead to, I am sure, the best utilization of resources in the region.

So all of these are good things, and I don't need to reiterate my support for tourism and parks. I am glad it's staying in the department, and I am very excited about the development of the Auyuittuq Park, which borders on my riding and that of Mr. Pudlat and has already had measurable economic benefits to both constituencies, perhaps, particularly, the community of Lake Harbour. I welcome the cost-benefit analysis that the Minister has proposed to undertake. I think it will give us measurable evidence that an investment in parks is an investment in jobs and economic opportunities in our region, at least.

I want to say that I was a bit concerned about the Minister's assertion that there's a freeze on new park development, if I understood him correctly. I hope that won't prevent some orderly planning to be done in the region, because I think that where communities come up with good ideas for park development I wouldn't want to see the department say they won't get supported. Tourism is on the move in Baffin, and I'm sure it's our priority. It may not be a priority in other regions, I don't want to speak for other regions. But in the Baffin, I think our recent leadership meeting in January, affirmed this. Tourism is a priority in the whole region and I would hope that the department will respond by supporting communities that have ideas for parks.

There is one developing in my constituency, in the fabulous Patsialluq region on south Frobisher Bay, a natural opportunity to fishing, skiing, snowmobiling, hiking, naturalists, and the Inuit of the outpost camp in that region have begun to form a venture and have begun to talk about tourism development. I would hope that the department would be able to respond and give them support to carry that idea further.

Now, Mr. Chairman, I turn to a difficult issue, but I do want to raise it and I want to raise it in an open fashion. With due respect to the success that we've had in the fishery in Baffin, particularly in Pangnirtung, and the priority that the department has given through the Development Corporation and through the departmental officials, I still want to say that I think we should take a good look at the Pangnirtung fishery to see what lessons we can learn as we plan to develop other fisheries in the Baffin region and in other regions of the Northwest Territories. I've talked already in this House about the dangers of over subsidizing and over capitalizing. I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that this is the case in Pangnirtung, but I think we should take a close look at the situation and decide for ourselves whether government support has been appropriate to the kind of small scale, in-shore, small business development that we want to encourage in the region.

Since I see Ms. Mike is squirming a little bit, I'll pose some questions that I think we should all want to have answered. I want to assure the Member and her constituents, that I want to see a policy-based discussed occur about how the Development Corporation -- which is quite new -- provides assistance to communities, and how the Development Corporation's policies ensure that there will be a long-term viability in the fishery.

I have a few questions and I'll save them for the detail, Mr. Chairman, but I have a few questions about things like market disruption which is an issue with a constituent company which feels that in some areas they have been unfairly competed with through Development Corporation dollars. I would like to ask some questions about the adequacy of the resource and whether we may have, perhaps, been premature in investing heavy capital facilities on a fishery that I understand is still exploratory, without knowing that there is a long-term sustainable harvest available in that fishery.

Mr. Chairman, I have these questions and I'm going to ask them in as open-minded a way as I can. I would also like to say that I think it would be appropriate for some MLAs to take a look at the Pangnirtung fishery. I talked to Johnny Mike, the chairman of the Pangnirtung Fisheries, and he has invited me to go and see for myself. I've known him for many years and I know many of the people involved in that fishery, so I'm going to take him up on that offer with, I'm sure, the support of the Member for Baffin Central, to take a look and see for myself because we all want this to work. We want it to be a success. We want it to be viable. We want there to be competition in the fishery in the Baffin region. We want it to be a success. So, it's in that spirit, Mr. Chairman, that I'll be asking some questions. And hopefully, later on this spring, paying a visit to the Pangnirtung fishery to look at the new plant and to look at the whole situation with a view to seeing what lessons we can learn, what's been done right, perhaps what we might want to do differently in future as we develop the fishery in the Keewatin and the Kitikmeot and other parts of Baffin.

So I hope no one will feel threatened by these enquiries. They are intended to be constructive, and intended to promote a viable fishery, rather than one that's doomed to government subsidy forever and ultimate failure. That's my concern, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much, Mr. Patterson. Those were general comments on page 17-11. Anybody else for general comments? Mr. Pudlat.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I would like to thank the Minister of Economic Development. We have worked very well with him with regard to economic development in my region, especially in Cape Dorset and Lake Harbour. I would like to thank him very much, and commend him as a Minister that he has helped us in my region very well.

Dennis stated earlier, the Baffin fisheries are concerned. I have also visited them with regard to economic development in my region. I have seen a lot of very good initiatives started by the Economic Development people. But, there are some concerns with the fact that if there are too many government subsidies at one time, it might come down. But at this time, it's moving along smoothly.

As well, I have heard about this concern in Iqaluit. But I haven't heard people expressing concern in Lake Harbour or Cape Dorset. They are trying to get some control over economic development prospects in their region, too. I know that other communities are interested in developing fisheries. That's the first part I would like to commend the Minister of Economic Development for that purpose.

We already know in the past that the communities were not aware of what was possible in the way of economic development in their region. Now, people are starting to realize that they are capable of making their own viable economy in their own region. The fact that people are aware -- in every community I'm sure there is not an economic development officer -- but people seem to be more enthusiastic towards the possibilities in their own region. For that purpose, I would like the Minister of Economic Development and Tourism to tell me if there are economic development officers in every region. That helps out in making people realize they are capable of independent planning on economic development issues. Maybe it is not so much of a concern in larger communities, but in smaller communities having jobs and economic possibilities is a concern. The education part of economic development possibilities is very important in smaller communities so they can start depending on their own resources and know how to operate a business viably and to operate industries in a viable fashion. People who are working for themselves, the cottage industry part of the economy, as well as working on tourism and training host communities where there are parks.

In Pangnirtung, there has been a visitors' centre for a long time. Could we possibly find out how we can acquire a visitors' centre the same way Pangnirtung has? This is with regard to my own region. Have you made any plans to set up a visitors' centre? Do we have to have cooperation from other communities to have a visitors' centre in our region? Not necessarily the same way other communities have them, but have them made for local parks areas where people visit and have information available to them in the region. I am probably talking too much. Those are some of the areas I would like to have answers to. I haven't read all of the economic development possibilities. Are there other things we can look forward to in our region for economic development purposes? Not just the tourism aspect, but the educational part of the development. Is there anything being planned for the communities or the public on how they can acquire

applications for funding from different sources? Can there be a public education program? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Pudlat. Mr. Todd.

On the two issues of the visitors' centre and parks facilities, I want to assure the honourable Member that there is a significant amount of money being spent on park development. As part of our overall strategy of developing this park, there will be some kind of visitors' centre/parks facility in that area. The department is working on that as part of their overall plan in terms of developing this park. I am pleased to hear that it has been very successful in attracting people into the area.

On the concern about our ability to advise the public of our programs, we are going to move forward on a much more aggressive campaign in the communities, specifically with respect to the fact that we have increased the regional authority. I know we have said that and people are tired of hearing that, but we have moved that regional authority out there. As part of moving that authority, there is also going to be a campaign to advise the community-at-large, small businesses, et cetera, about the new programs. That should help in letting people know, in the honourable Member's riding, about what is available for small and large businesses. Thank you.

General comments. Can we go into detail? Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Line By Line

Directorate

Page 17-12, directorate, $2.869 million, O and M. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Policy And Planning

Policy and planning, $678,000, O and M.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Mr. Patterson.

Mr. Chairman, I am not sure if this is the place to ask this, but could I get an idea of where his planning is going with regard to tanneries and the processing of fur in the Northwest Territories? It has been talked about for years. This Minister is a man of action. Can we get a feeling for the plans in that field?

Mr. Todd.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My colleague knows there were some problems with the tannery in Broughton Island. I think it was environmental concerns and serious ones. We are addressing those. Hopefully, we will solve those problems very soon. We did put a small micro-tannery into the community of Whale Cove. It was done for under $50,000 because we managed to find an old building. There is some development taking place in the west in North Slave. There has been some review done with respect to the

possibility of a tannery in the Inuvik area because of the muskrats and the fur there. I am a strong proponent of trying to get greater utilization out of resources that, historically, we have only used for domestic consumption. I think, provided we do these things carefully, that they are environmentally sound, we can increase the dollars or the economic components to our renewable resources. It is a priority of the department. It is part and parcel of what we are doing, for example, with the caribou in the meat processing plants. We are trying to utilize the skins.

I have said it many times, if you look back, historically, we only got one hit with the caribou. It was used for domestic consumption by hunters and people in the communities. Now we are getting four. We are paying the hunter for shooting the caribou, we process it in a plant, we take the skin and put it in a tanner, then we take the tanned skin and put it in an arts and crafts facility. That is four hits that we haven't had before. It is part of an integrated plan to get greater utilization of a renewable resource. It is a priority. But we have to be extremely careful that we do this in an environmentally sound way.

Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, there is a lot of concern about the anti-fur sentiments in Europe. It is a very difficult battle that we have faced for some years. I know there is a project initiated by the private sector in Pangnirtung to sell seal leather to Japan. I think there is a sizable number of seal pelts being harvested in Pangnirtung for sale to Japan. I would like to ask the Minister his views on, with or without a European ban on leg hold trapped fur, which we all hope won't happen.

Setting aside that major European issue, I would like to ask the Minister, is there not another market in Asia where -- I understand from my visit to Japan -- there seems to be a much more positive attitude towards the harvest of renewable resources, marine mammals and the use of not just meat and body parts, but leather and fur? Has this department looked into the Asian market, or will the department be looking into that market for seal leather and other marine products, apart from whether we win or lose battles in Europe? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Todd.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There is the old saying, great minds think alike -- of course, the come back is fools seldom differ -- and I believe there is a market in Asia. I've spent some time there myself when I was in private life. We are going to be having discussions with the Newfoundland government about what they are doing with respect to seals, for example. I think there is a tremendous effort under way by former Ministers of Renewable Resources and present Ministers at the European level but, quite frankly, there has been very little effort done with regard to the Asian market.

We are moving forward on that initiative, to take a look at what opportunities may unfold. Madam Premier has indicated that, in discussions with the Premier from BC, he has offered that we tag on to some of their trade commissions. They are very active in the Asian marketplace, particularly in Hong Kong and Japan. I'm optimistic. At least from the Department of Economic Development's perspective, I think we'll be able to shift some of the commercial focus -- and I stress commercial focus, because that's our role -- to those markets. In an effort to try to save money and time, we're going to try to work in cooperation with both the Newfoundland government and the Government of BC, who already have experience in that area. Hopefully, we'll be able to move quickly with a strategy.

As we all know, in Toronto there was a Globe and Mail two-page ad about -- am I allowed to use the word? -- seal penises. It was a coincidence that I sat with Mr. Wells, the Premier from Newfoundland, who of course, I admire and we were talking about the whole issue. Basically, his position was he has 30,000 people unemployed and he has to find a way to get greater uses from renewable resources. I view renewable resources in exactly the same way. We've simply got to get more economic benefits from them. They are resources, particularly the seals in the eastern Arctic, that have historically been very beneficial to our harvesters.

There will be a shift. We will explore the commercial potential for renewable resources, whether it is muskox from Banks Island, seals from Broughton Island, or wherever. Hopefully, in the coming three or four months, we will have some indication if there are any opportunities in the Asia area. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Patterson.

I would just like to simply say, Mr. Chairman, that I'm delighted to hear of the Minister's commitments to move in this area. It has my full support and I think that this is an area where we can get positive results in a huge and growing Asian economy. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. We are still on policy and planning, page 17-13. Mr. Ng, did you want to say something?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a general question regarding economic planning and analysis. I understand that the department has economic analysts in each region except for the Kitikmeot. Is that correct? I just want to get some clarification on the status of those positions.

Mr. Todd.

If it is okay, I will ask Mr. Bailey to answer that question. He's involved in the reorganization of the department on an intimate level.

Mr. Bailey.

As a result of the reorganization, some of the bigger regions will be positioning economic planners. Inuvik, for example, is going to take one of their positions and turn it into a planning position. Baffin is going to do that. The other position that we are transferring out to the regions will be application assessors. As part of the reorganization, we're increasing the staffing component in the planning unit at headquarters and we'll have three planners here, two that will travel to the regions and work with the regions.

Thank you. Mr. Ng.

With the decentralization of some of the decision-making out to the regions -- and theoretically, that makes it more accessible for clients to access programs which will in turn generate increased work- load, program demands, funding applications and that type of thing -- wouldn't you see the need to have these positions out in the regions? Is that the long-term goal?

Mr. Todd.

We are already transferring seven PYs out to the regions from headquarters to provide the support that Mr. Antoine spoke about, as it relates to new spending authorities. Like everybody else, there is a limitation of our resources and I understand we only have three positions. At this time, there is no plan to transfer these positions out to the regions.

However, we are developing regional planning strategies with the communities and with the regions. We are funding them and we are using, in some cases, consultants and some people in-house. Thank you.

Anybody else? We are on page 17-13. Mr. Patterson.

Just one other matter, Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask the Minister if he or his staff have had a chance to consider the whole question of developing programs or policies to support film-making ventures in the Northwest Territories, as do most other provinces and the Yukon? Has some work been done on that or will the Minister undertake to examine this important opportunity for the Northwest Territories? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Todd.

The simple answer is no, we have no policy in place. I agree with the honourable Member, there have been a number of instances lately and a few in the past, particularly in the Member's riding, where there has been a great deal of film making. We're told that in the latest exercise that is going on in Yellowknife for Frostfire, that they're going to leave close to $675,000 spent in the Northwest Territories. We provided them with some financial assistance, somewhere between $50,000 to $75,000, I believe. That is a good return for investment, in my opinion.

We're encouraged with this development and we're going to take a hard look at it, but there is nothing in place at the present time. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Are you finished, Mr. Patterson?

Yes, thank you.

Anybody else? Mr. Allooloo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe under policy and planning, the department was trying to promote Inuit carving in Japan, which I took part in on behalf of the Minister about a year ago. How is that project going in Japan? Thank you.

Mr. Todd.

It doesn't really come under that category, but I can answer the question. Right now, we're working a lot more closely with the cooperative movement, in relationship to the arts and crafts. I guess I could categorize the development as being stable. In other words, there has been no growth in it at this time. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Todd. Mr. Arvaluk.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't know if this question belongs under policy and planning. If not, you can redirect me, Mr. Chairman. The Rankin Inlet meat plant was extremely impressed with the quality of the caribou meat that was being bought from Coral Harbour. They request another 400 carcasses. However, my concern is that the top dollar they are paying for this -- if a specific kind of caribou meat, I think, is $30 for a full caribou, dressed. The hunters feel that this is rather cheap considering that you have to use about 10 gallons of gas to get some caribou, and the average load is usually about four or five caribou. That doesn't really pay for the trip itself, considering that ammunition and everything else has to be bought. Is there a plan to increase the payment that is made to the hunter? I know that the HTA is helpless in determining as to what they could buy the caribou for because the actual buyers, like the meat plant or the government have to set the price. Is there a plan to make it a more reasonable return for the hunter?

Secondly, is there a plan to increase the quota of commercial harvest in Coral Harbour in order to stabilize the population growth of the Southampton Island caribou?

Thank you, Mr. Arvaluk. Mr. Todd.

The gathering of caribou on Southampton Island and the quota, of course, is established by Renewable Resources in discussion with us. This is an organized hunt because the population of the caribou have become, I believe, too large. I stand to be corrected, but I believe that's it.

I'm not aware of any movement to increase the quota at this time. However, Renewable Resources does work very closely with us on the issue.

With respect to the cost and the price that is being paid, there is no plan, at this time, to increase any additional per pound or per carcass cost. I should stress that this hunt is heavily subsidized through the EDA, and that the NWT Development Corporation purchases the meat for the fish plant or the meat plant. They determine the costs. To some extent, it's market driven because of the cost of the end product they have to sell in the stores. As far as I'm aware, in discussions with Mr. Leonard, the chairman, there is no intent to increase the price, at this time, of the caribou that is currently purchased. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Todd. Mr. Arvaluk.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Is there a market being devolved right now for Coral Harbour/ Southampton Island caribou to be marketed beyond Rankin Inlet? At every

session where I mingle with people in Yellowknife, for example, and I've been in some other places too like Hay River, Fort Smith and Inuvik which are larger centres than we have. I notice that when you participate in the hunting trip in Yellowknife, for example, you consider yourself to be fairly discriminatory about what kind of caribou you hunt. Very seldom, I see fairly healthy, fat caribou around here. In most cases it's not the fault of the hunter, but in the normal circumstances most of the caribou here are not fat. I notice that when I bring some from Coral Harbour, the whole carcass is gone in 15 minutes because they like it so much here. Is there any plan to market -- at least to promote -- the fact that caribou from Southampton Island is normally like this? They are one of the disease-free herds that have been studied by Renewable Resources. Is there anything going on beyond the Rankin Inlet meat market?

Thank you, Mr. Arvaluk. Mr. Todd.

No, there is no deliberate strategy to market Coral Harbour caribou versus the Qamanirjuaq herd or Whale Cove. I think we had a unique opportunity, and I hope we will continue to be able to harvest a great deal of caribou in the particular area with the cooperation of Renewable Resources and the hunters' and trappers' association in Coral Harbour. Financially, what it amounts to, that's where the focus is. We're still utilizing some caribou, for example, out of Baker Lake and out of Whale Cove and, I believe, even Rankin. But, the fact that we had, I believe it was somewhere in the range of 2,000, it was a unique opportunity because the herd had, in the eyes of Renewable Resources, increased to the point where it was endangering the quality of the herd. So that's how this came about. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Todd. Mr. Arvaluk.

My final question would be, why has the market not been driven? Is that politically motivated so that the other regions could participate in that thing, or is it scientific?

Mr. Todd.

It's in a spirit of fairness more than anything else. I think we have to give the same opportunity for the Baker Lake herd there for the hunters and trappers of Chesterfield Inlet, Whale Cove, et cetera. Again, I say to you that we have a unique situation which we're very fortunate in having, in Coral Harbour. That's why there is a large number of animals coming out of there, versus Arviat or Chesterfield or Baker Lake. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Todd. Mr. Arvaluk.

Mr. Chairman, I cannot believe this. A fair opportunity to economic reasons, if we would have noticed that...And we can only look at last year's capital budget of how many millions of dollars spent in Rankin Inlet and hardly anything anywhere else in the Keewatin. Now we are talking about fair opportunity for all the communities. Let's not be hypocritical.

Mr. Chairman, I'm just trying to understand that Renewable Resources is stating that unless you start killing 2,000 caribou on Southampton Island, you are going to run out of food for the caribou and, in turn, a disaster is going to be repeated that happened on Coats Island. It's a scientific fact. Why did Renewable Resources and Economic Development jointly try to match that need to kill 2,000 caribou and market it because it's one of the healthiest caribou in the NWT, and absolutely marketable because the fat is never less than an inch or inch and a half, even in the wintertime? I want to know that, Mr. Chairman.

Thanks, Mr. Arvaluk. Mr. Todd. Madam Premier, what is the issue that you're raising?

I have a concern regarding the issue of the Member calling the Minister hypocritical. I think it would be only fair to ask him to withdraw the comment.

My recollection of the comment was let us not be hypocritical. Those were the words that were used, but I will check Hansard tomorrow and see if that was, in fact, the case. Mr. Todd.

Well I've been called many things in my life but hypocrite isn't one of them. Anyway, I don't know what the Member is trying to get at. We are already accessing 2,000 caribou out of the Coral Harbour area. I think we're meeting the needs of his community. What I was saying was, we're just utilizing some caribou from -- I believe it's 50 we took from the hunters and trappers in Whale Cove, 75 from Baker Lake. It has no serious impact on our ability to take the caribou in Coral Harbour. We take all the meat we can get because I'm told we have an excellent product and it's doing very well in the marketplace. So, I want to assure the honourable Member that we will take all the caribou we can get out of Coral Harbour. That's the important issue here. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Todd. Mr. Arvaluk, have you finished?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for correcting me. I was not calling Mr. Todd anything. I was talking about this responsible Legislative Assembly regarding the fair distribution of economic opportunities. Thank you.

I said I will check it tomorrow. Okay, anybody else then on this item, policy and planning, 17-13? Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On this activity, on policy and planning, there is a numbered section in there and it has to do with human resources, and this planning function administers the affirmative action for the department as well as the in-service training program. The Standing Committee on Finance position that I read in the beginning of this session was that, with regard to added authority and lending authority to superintendents in the regions, we stressed the fact that these people need additional training to carry out the work at the same time as additional resources. The Minister had indicated in earlier questioning that there are going to be additional resources going into the regions. I would like to ask him what type of in-service training does the department plan to provide to the superintendents because of their added responsibilities and authorities? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Mr. Todd.

If I may, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask Mr. Bailey -- I know some of the steps that have taken place, but he knows all the steps that have taken place with respect to the increased resources and the training that is required, so, if I may, I would like to pass it to Mr. Bailey.

Thank you, Mr. Todd. Mr. Bailey.

With respect to the reorganization and the training requirements that we recognized that we would need, there were some immediate needs that we recognized, and we are in the process right now, for example, of developing, with FBDB, a new credit manual for all of our officers. The superintendents are the primary contact in the regions so they will be handling most of that.

With respect to our whole human resource need, we are in the process of developing a human resource strategy because, in the past, the superintendents undertook what headquarters told them to do, and we are in the process now of identifying the training needs of all of our staff, starting at the EDO level and going all the way through to my position. We are going to make sure that we fast-track that, and it's on stream now so we hope to have it off this spring so that we can start putting the superintendents, credit officers and all of the regional staff into programs where they are fully aware of what skills they need and we get the skills that they require so that they can do the job that they have to do.

Thank you, Mr. Bailey. Mr. Antoine.

I understand that the added authority to the superintendents just happened recently, since January or maybe February, so it is just fairly new. I think it is a good move. I think that they required that authority many years ago, but, unfortunately, it is only now that it has come about. We know that some of the superintendents need additional training and additional authority because of their added responsibility, and I think that it has to be done immediately and before he gets bogged down between now and the time the training takes place. I would like to ask the Minister if the added authority is in place now, and if it is, have the superintendents used that added authority at this point? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Mr. Todd.

I know this is a concern of a number of the Members. I think, when you give people increased responsibilities, you also increase the risks, so let's say that up front. I personally feel that we have to take some risk. If we are not prepared to take some risk then there will be a tendency for us not to make decisions. I recognize what the Member is saying. It is important. We are trying to fast-track and bring up to speed, if you want, the superintendents in particular at this time. I am hopeful that the superintendents will then take their responsibility, which we gave to them in late December or early January, and move forward on it in meeting the needs of the constituency.

I was asked this question in the House, I believe, last week. I have only personally spoken to two superintendents - the one in my own riding, Mr. Olah, and Ms. Trumper in Baffin Island. I am told by both of them, because it is an important initiative for me that this thing work, that it is working and that they are making the decisions with the authority that we have given them. I can't speak for the other regions personally, but perhaps Mr. Bailey could.

I can't speak for the level of authority that is being undertaken in each region, but it is being utilized in the regions. If there is a problem at a regional level with that application, for example, that the regional superintendent is uncomfortable with it -- then at headquarters of BCC, for example, there used to be three staff members there. We have increased the staff component there to eight. We now have an east lending officer and a west lending officer. If a superintendent in a region feels fairly comfortable with an application, but is not totally satisfied, they can get a hold of Yellowknife and get a second opinion. The decision is still the superintendent's decision, but there is a second opinion that they can check with. So it is being used.

Thank you, Mr. Bailey. Mr. Antoine.

Mr. Chairman, on the other parts of the responsibility of this task, under human resources, affirmative action. Any time there is a vacancy in the department, especially in the communities at the level of superintendent or maybe assistant superintendent, there seems to be a lack of aboriginal people in that area. Part of the affirmative action policy is to try to get native northerners involved in this area, and there seems to be a lack of that going on, not only in this department but in other departments, too.

I know that there are people out there in the different departments and specifically in this department, that desire to be at that level in this department, but for one reason or another, through the application and through the screening and through the interviews and so forth, they get weeded out, many times because they don't have the experience in management or so forth. But if they are never given the opportunity to be in management positions, they will always be weeded out of these types of positions.

I would like to ask the Minister if his department is willing to look at some of the positions at the superintendent and assistant superintendent levels where they could make it into a term position, and, at the same time, have a training position for some of these people that I just mentioned? Has the department looked at that possibility of trying to meet the affirmative action policy by introducing training positions at the

superintendent and assistant superintendent levels? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Mr. Todd.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The short answer is that we need to address that issue, and the honourable Member did address it with me a month or so ago. Mr. Bailey knows it is important that we get aboriginal northerners into the management team. We are trying to work on a strategy right now. I think it goes right across the departmental boundaries and it is an issue I have raised -- and I don't know if it is proper for me to talk about -- in Cabinet, that we need to get more northerners, and particularly

aboriginal northerners into the government.

Just for the record, we haven't done that well, but at the present time, we have 41 aboriginal northerners in the department, which is roughly about 27 per cent. I certainly recognize the importance, and so does the deputy, of getting northerners and aboriginal northerners in the management team. Hopefully, we'll have a strategy in place very, very soon. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Todd. We are on the item policy and planning. Total O and M, $678,000.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Tourism And Parks

Page 17-14, tourism and parks. Total O and M, $8.008 million. Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Chairman, I don't know if this is the category, but do we have anything with regard to the protection of our water sheds? I wonder if we need to have a government policy regarding the protection of lakes and so on. I don't know if I'm on the right track, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Todd.

I'm not trying to pass the buck, as they say, but we don't have the responsibility for that. I believe it lies with Renewable Resources. Perhaps the honourable Member could address it at that time, because I'm not familiar with the responsibilities in that field. Thank you.

Tourism and parks, total O and M, $8.008 million. Mr. Antoine.

Thank you. How is the department organized under tourism and parks? Do they have a committee or group within the department that looks at tourism, specifically? Do you have superintendents assigned to look at tourism as a whole? Do you have something like that?

Mr. Todd.

Mr. Bailey advised me that there is now a committee of superintendents to ensure we get a regional

perspective as to what kinds of policies and development of new parks we want to move forward on. Thank you.

Mr. Antoine.

Can the Minister tell us who is heading this committee and can he elaborate on the reason for the committee, its authority and objectives? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Mr. Todd.

If it is okay with the committee, I would like to ask Mr. Bailey to answer that question.

It is fine with the committee, I'm sure. Mr. Bailey.

With respect to the new management process we have in the department now, we have structured committees for all of our sectors, and the tourism sector is no different. Tourism is different from parks. We have a parks committee also, although it is made up of the same members, it is just chaired by different persons.

The committee is co-chaired. We have a western chair, who is John Sheehan and an eastern chair, who is Katherine Trumper. The committee is mandated to look at the ways that the department markets tourism. The problems we had in the past, and we had a lot of complaints about, is we were spending our budget primarily on generic advertising. We would have a picture of an iceberg, or a picture of a river and nothing else. Last year, we went to product-specific advertising where we took sectors of the tourism economy and advertised those specifically. We also have an 1-800 number, which we contract out. We provide 1-800 number service across the north out of Yellowknife and we have the Explorers' Guide.

But, none of the money was reaching the regional level where superintendents could interact with operators in the region and spend their money more effectively. So, we struck this committee with regional superintendents involved in it. The regional superintendents look at all the regional input from all the superintendents, look at what type of issues they would like to undertake, allocate a budget to each of the seven regions out of our total budget, and they can undertake activities at a regional level that have impact on them. As the Minister just stated, that creates a regional perspective to what we are doing.

That committee makes recommendations to the management team, and says this is how we should be spending our $1.7 million in advertising, based on the impact and the cost-benefit to the client base and to the communities.

Thank you, Mr. Bailey. Mr. Antoine.

I didn't realize this is how the department has been developing. Tourism being quite important for my constituency, I would like to know what kind of interaction or direction this committee takes with regard to, for example, Nahanni Ram Tours Association? Thank you.

Mr. Todd.

It is my understanding that the superintendent communicates with a group like the Nahanni Ram Tours Association and asks the for their input, what kind of support they require, whether it is going to trade shows or part of the co-marketing strategy, et cetera. We're transferring some of those fiscal authorities out there, not just the lending and not just the grants, we are also saying here are the programs. We were always driving in the centre and we were not necessarily reflective of the regional needs.

This process that is now in place will hopefully help in two ways. First, the superintendent will have a responsibility to get out there and discuss matters with the industry at large. Second, the industry will also be able to say to the superintendent that they have a responsibility to talk to us to make sure that our needs and interests are reflected in the fiscal money available to market tourism development.

Speaking personally, from one who has been in Mr. Antoine's riding, there is nothing more majestic than the Nahanni area.

Thank you, Mr. Todd. Mr. Antoine.

I'm trying to get this figured out. Last year, a number of times, I approached the Minister about Trout Lake. This lake has seven different species of fish that you can catch just about any time of the year. Everybody here is welcome to come fish with me next summer.

---Laughter

The community has its own lodge and they've been trying to get it going. There doesn't seem to be any support at all from the department. What I wanted to see was the department going in there and working with the community. I brought this up last spring. I wanted the department to go in and help them organize so this winter they could go out to the trade shows and see if they could solicit people to go fishing.

The fishermen who go out plan way ahead of time. Once they've made up their mind now, one month before fishing season starts is not going to do it. So, this year, more or less, is shot again. What I wanted to see happen with the department and the community never did materialize. I wanted to see at least one thing happen in each of the communities with regard to tourism with the department. That is not happening and I'm very disappointed. I would like to ask the Minister if he could talk to his people responsible in my constituency to see what they can do about this situation in Trout Lake. Thank you.

Mr. Todd.

I will have to look into that situation. I thought it was dealt with. I apologize if it hasn't been. I want to assure the honourable Member that it will be. I will give him a full report by early next week.

One thing I do want to point out though, is this new regional authority that I keep coming back to will ensure -- in my opinion, anyway and the opinion of the department -- significant community input that simply wasn't there before. Just by design, it has to. I'm told by Mr. Bailey that Mr. Borelli, who is from Liard, I believe, did recently go on a marketing sales trip and has come back with a significant amount of sales because of that trip. I don't know whether that would have happened under the old system, it might have. But, under the new system, it definitely happens. That's what I'm trying to say.

On the larger issue, I think it's important for the industry now to make sure the superintendent knows they are there. The superintendent has to do likewise. On the issue of Trout Lake, I was there myself and there is no question it is a beautiful part of the country. There's an enterprising group of young people there. They're even growing potatoes. I'm disappointed if nothing has happened. I'll talk to Mr. Bailey today and see if we can get a plan in place to assist those people there. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Todd. Is this item concluded? Tourism and parks, total O and M, $8.008 million.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Before we go onto the next item, I would like to get a feel from the committee on whether they would like to have a short break now?

Agreed.

---Agreed